Improving Ralf's soldering - WAS: Solder on PCB sleepers - interfering with point blades?

[Ralf]

Hi All, 

 

Jumping into PCB track construction with some vague degree of success so far, it's all going to be inlaid so I'm not currently having to worry about having all the sleepers let alone their arrangements, but one stumbling block so far is that solder on the sleeper carrying the tips of the point blades obstructs the free movement of the point blades... See poor picture below: (more general pictures at the bottom of the post) 

 

 

What's the solution? I've tried sucking the solder and filing / grinding it out of the way but not achieved anything good enough yet... I suspect de-soldering braid or not getting it there in the first place are the answers? 

 

Many thanks

Ralf

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Ralf
Title edit!

[brossard]

Reflux the solder, apply the iron to the outside of the rail.  The excess solder should wick towards the iron.  You can also try spreading the solder over the CC strip, then using a fiber pen to improve that.  Yes, desolder braid is a good tool for this job.

 

In fact, looking at the pics, you should probably do that with all the solder joints. 

 

Try cutting tiny amounts of solder off the roll and picking it up with the iron.  It is easy to overdo it if you touch the end of the roll to the joint.   Make the first joint on the outside of the rail, then flux the inside and use to iron to wick the solder under the rail.  This improves strength and makes a neater joint.

 

Difficult to be sure but the blades don't look to be sharp enough.  At least there's a set in the far stock rail.  I don't see a hinge for the blades.  I make a cosmetic hinge with a cut down rail joiner and solder it in place.  If you are using a Tortoise or similar, it has the muscle to move a solid blade.  Don't know about a solenoid.

 

You will need to gap the timbers.

 

John

[Michael Edge]

I put grease in the switch gap before soldering the rail to the tiebar sleeper. You will need to dismantle the tiebar, clean all the solder off and start again though.

[roythebus]

I'd suggest practicing soldering on some lain track first. Get that right and the rest should come easy. I only solder on the outside edge of the rail,  use a chisel edge bit and a bit of flux on each joint. It seems you might have some dry joints there as well, where the material hasn't been hot enough for the solder to flow properly.

 

don't worry, all of us make the same mistakes with the first few points we make.

[Ian Smeeton]

In 2mm FS, I had the same problem.

 

I ran a scalpel blade across the PCB as close as I could get to the inside of the stock rail. Unless you absolutely flood the joint, the solder will not cross the line.

 

Regards

 

Ian

[hayfield]

Are you using liquid flux? and why are you getting solder on the inside of the rail ?

 

The method I use is to flux the outside of the joint, then holding the rail tightly to the sleeper apply a small amount of solder on the tip of the iron to the outside join only.

 

I use coreless solder wire and not that resin stuff for electrics, also it looks like you are not getting the work hot enough (or not using enough flux) to get the solder to fuse with the metal

 

For removing excess solder use a solder wick dunked in flux to soak it up, or get some multi strand wire, remove the sleeve, twist, dunk into flux, apply the wire to the excess solder and heat with an iron, the wire will soak up the excess solder.

 

These issues are what most folk encounter on the learning curve

[Siberian Snooper]

If it's your first attempt at track building, expect the first few attempts to be rubbish and probably binable, I know my first few attempts ended that way. Make sure that you clean the PCB and the foot of the rail well before you start soldering.

 

 

[gordon s]

Maybe it's just experience of soldering the tie bar, but I always do it in the open position with a weight on the blade holding it firmly in position and stopping the solder running underneath. Do one side first and slide it up to the adjacent rail. Then gap the other side in the open position and solder the second join. 

 

If there is any fine adjustment to be made, it's a simple touch with iron to melt and then retract it quickly before the heat spreads onto the adjacent rail.

 

As always, cleanliness is the key to a fast and solid joint. High heat and in quickly.....

[brossard]

Agree with SS.  I have built a lot of 0 gauge turnouts (way more than I need because I couldn't make up my mind) over the last couple of years.  My first attempts were pretty bad but I now have acceptable examples.

 

John

[jim.snowdon]

In addition to practice, a sensible precaution is to be sparing with the flux, using a fine pointed brush, and to apply it only on the side of the joint that you are going to solder. Then, if you can see the far side of the joint (agreed, not always possible) watch for the bead of solder appear under the rail and as soon as it does, take the heat away.

 

One thing I would not recommend, from experience and particularly on such a short turnout, is using a sleeper as the tiebar (or stretcher bar, to use the proper term). As the points are changed, the twist between the switch rails and the stretcher bar will eventually break either the joint or the sleeper. The solution is either to use a hinged joint between the two, or a stretcher bar that will flex. What scale are you working in?

 

Jim

[Andy Reichert]

Not sure what type of inset track you are trying to model?

 

A Railway Goods yard; A Public accessible railway area such as a wharf; A railway tramway on public roads; Streetcar track with sharp curves. Turnouts in public areas typically have to have safety features to prevent humans getting trapped and injured by moving point blades. And if you are after realism, are very visibly different. The web has many inset track pictures that you won't find in most hand laying track books.

 

Soldering rail directly to copper clad sleepers is lot easier with Flat bottom rail, than with Bullhead. FB rail stays standing upright on it's own and has a larger base surface to aid making stronger solder joints. Also soldering stretcher bars to points is risky if the bars are then hidden under a plaster street surface. Solder doesn't set hard like glues do and broken (metal fatigue) joints need to be repaired every so often.

 

Due to long experience, I use a quite different stretch bar arrangement that keeps working almost indefinitely with FB rail.

 

Andy

[Ralf]

9 hours ago, hayfield said:

Are you using liquid flux? and why are you getting solder on the inside of the rail ?

 

Yes, Carr's orange flux and I suspect having read the responses above far too much of it... 

 

5 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

As the points are changed, the twist between the switch rails and the stretcher bar will eventually break either the joint or the sleeper. The solution is either to use a hinged joint between the two, or a stretcher bar that will flex. What scale are you working in?

 

That's very helpful Jim, hinged blades is something I've not even considered... Working in 4mm:ft (4-SF)

 

 

37 minutes ago, Andy Reichert said:

Turnouts in public areas typically have to have safety features to prevent humans getting trapped and injured by moving point blades. And if you are after realism, are very visibly different.

 

Thanks Andy, good point. It's public wharf area but as a beginner I'm not too worried about exact realism yet but that's a very good point... 

 

 

38 minutes ago, Andy Reichert said:

Also soldering stretcher bars to points is risky if the bars are then hidden under a plaster street surface. Solder doesn't set hard like glues do and broken (metal fatigue) joints need to be repaired every so often.

 

Ah! Now that's something I'd not considered...

 

Off to practise some soldering with a straight bit and I shall post the results in a hour or so! 

Many thanks to everyone for the input... 

 

Ralf

[t-b-g]

I put a tiny sliver of kitchen foil under the stock rail and up between the blade and the stock rail. You can solder all you like without gumming things up and slip the foil out afterwards. The thickness of the foil actually ensures a tiny clearance when you take it out again, which stops you making the point mechanism too stiff.

[Ralf]

Here we are folks, have been away and tried rather harder with the soldering... Comments please! 

 

There's pics below or a YouTube video which is rather tedious but eye opening seeming my work literally larger than real life!  

 

Many thanks

Ralf

 

 

 

 

[Andy Reichert]

What sort of locomotive(s) do you intend to use?

 

Andy

[Grovenor]

Unless its an optical illusion from the photos the rail looks to be upside down. The head should be bigger than the foot.

[hayfield]

Orange flux is non corrosive and designed for electrics, for non ferrous metals Carrs red flux is the best, The flux us part of your problem

[Michael Edge]

18 hours ago, gordon s said:

Maybe it's just experience of soldering the tie bar, but I always do it in the open position with a weight on the blade holding it firmly in position and stopping the solder running underneath. Do one side first and slide it up to the adjacent rail. Then gap the other side in the open position and solder the second join. 

 

If there is any fine adjustment to be made, it's a simple touch with iron to melt and then retract it quickly before the heat spreads onto the adjacent rail.

 

As always, cleanliness is the key to a fast and solid joint. High heat and in quickly.....

I always do exactly the opposite, including when making repairs, that's where the grease comes in preventing the solder from flowing under the switch blade to the stock rail. From new I do one like this, then wedge the switch open at the correct gap and solder up the other blade closed against its stock rail. After the track has been painted, ballasted and used for a few years repairs (frequent at exhibitions) can be made without using grease again as the accumulated dirt prevents the solder from flowing where you don't want it. I usually use phosphoric acid flus for this job.

[Stephen Freeman]

9 hours ago, Grovenor said:

Unless its an optical illusion from the photos the rail looks to be upside down. The head should be bigger than the foot.

That was my immediate reaction to the first post, I think it might be the right way round on the second attempt but not sure.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

IMHO, you need to turn the wick up on the iron, or dwell a bit longer to get the solder to flow a tad better, the joints seem to err on the side of dryness.

 

Mike.

[jim.snowdon]

9 hours ago, hayfield said:

Orange flux is non corrosive and designed for electrics, for non ferrous metals Carrs red flux is the best, The flux us part of your problem

All fluxes are corrosive, but only some leave non-corrosive residues. Fluxes intended for the electronics industry generally fall into the second group, as manufacturers don't want to spend time, effort and money in cleaning corrosive residues off printed circuit boards. But, they work quite happily on non-ferrous metals; it's what they're designed to do.

Just what is in Carrs Orange flux is a mystery, unless you know something I don't, but as far as I am aware, Red flux is nothing more than dilute phosphoric acid, which leaves corrosive residues everywhere within range. 

I have been using no-clean fluxes from the electronics industry for fifty years in building both track and etched brass and nickel silver kits with no problems.

 

Jim

[hayfield]

Jim

 

I am no chemist (unlike Mr Carr) and gave the information which was available from C&L as a download when they distributed it

 

I possibly gave the wrong info about the orange flux  "A non corrosive flux for places which cannot be washed (eg Gearboxes, track laying, electrical wiring) the flux burns at a higher temperature than natural resins)

 

In practice I have found using the correct solder and flux gives me the best results, using the wrong materials works but not as well

 

I use Carrs red flux (which is organic) for brass and nickle silver)  Carrs green or London Road models 12% for steel and whitemetal, I use either 60/40 solder wire (not resin cored) and 70 degree solder for whitemetal. These work for me

 

I have attached a scan of the notes/instructions of Carrs fluxes. Notes on Carrs solder on Phoenix website

 

[Ralf]

1 hour ago, jim.snowdon said:

I have been using no-clean fluxes from the electronics industry for fifty years in building both track and etched brass and nickel silver kits with no problems.

 

Interesting Jim, think I'm going to try some of Carrs Red Flux as I'm struggling with the Orange - but that's probably technique and experience! 

 

1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

IMHO, you need to turn the wick up on the iron, or dwell a bit longer to get the solder to flow a tad better, the joints seem to err on the side of dryness.

Thanks Mike, I'm using a 75w iron set to 450c so suspect it's dwell longer... 

 

 

12 hours ago, Andy Reichert said:

What sort of locomotive(s) do you intend to use?

 

Short wheelbase industrials and BR shunters, both steam and diesel. 

 

 

11 hours ago, Grovenor said:

Unless its an optical illusion from the photos the rail looks to be upside down. The head should be bigger than the foot.

 

Tis an illusion I assure you, I having read about the ease of using it upside down I always try and remember there's a right way and a wrong way! 

 

Are there any recommended video tutorials of soldering PCB track up? I realise it must be a pain film to do but I find video so much more helpful than interpreting a book. 

 

Thanks

Ralf

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Searching "soldering track" or similar on YouTube throws up a few.

Watch more than one to get an idea of first principles.

 

Mike.

[t-b-g]

The 450 degree might be the problem. If you look at the Carrs instructions for the brown label, it gives a hint as to the problems of soldering at too high a temperature. 75watts at 450 degrees is more for soldering O Gauge loco kits than 4mm scale track.

 

If you turn the iron down to around 300 degrees, you may find that the flux and solder can do their work better, before the active ingredients are vapourised.

 

My usual iron for track is an Antex 25watt. It isn't temperature controlled and I don't know what the tip temperature is but it is just right with 60/40 lead tin solder.