East Barnet Joint Stock - a workbench

[Asterix2012]

11 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

 

Indeed; I was just reading a section on these questions in Steve Barnfield's 1994 book on Painting and Lining and after referencing the long-running Lake/Crimson Lake/Maroon debate as an example of how difficult a subject this can be, he quotes Bob Forster as telling him that "the shade of Crimson Lake ordered from the manufacturer by the LMS was always matched to a 1913 Midland Railway sample. The perceived difference of shade which resulted derived from the way in which this paint was applied, not in the actual paint itself. It is well known that the Midland were very keen on finish of the highest quality, but that the LMS, although still desiring a lasting result did cheapen the process by cutting down the number of top coats and varnishes."

 

This should be read in context though: his wider point is that the kind of certainty sought in such traditions is simply impossible to achieve and was so at the time, let alone over a century later and at small modelling scales. Ian Rathbone makes the same points in his book.

 

None of which alters for me the charming image of senior gents at the LMS carefully unwrapping a foot-square piece of painted carriage side for comparison purposes each time a new order of paint was being prepared, returning it to an enormous Crimson Lake-coloured office safe afterwards...

I have read in a reference book about when the Highland Railway Jones Goods was restored to steam in the Fifties and Jones’ surviving relative was present when it was unveiled in Highland Railway green.

 

She commented that was the wrong colour and reference was made to samples still held at the North British Loco company at that time still in business 

 

These were steel plates with colour and lining samples painted on

 

From these the locomotive was repainted in the yellow scheme it carried for some years.

 

I do not recall which book I read this in and I have checked those I have now, so apologies for the lack of corroborating evidence.

[Chas Levin]

10 hours ago, Asterix2012 said:

I have read in a reference book about when the Highland Railway Jones Goods was restored to steam in the Fifties and Jones’ surviving relative was present when it was unveiled in Highland Railway green.

 

She commented that was the wrong colour and reference was made to samples still held at the North British Loco company at that time still in business 

 

These were steel plates with colour and lining samples painted on

 

From these the locomotive was repainted in the yellow scheme it carried for some years.

 

I do not recall which book I read this in and I have checked those I have now, so apologies for the lack of corroborating evidence.

 

No need to apologise! That story's typical of the kinds of things that happen so often with the paint colour question, where peoples' memories are pitted against physical evidence; it does make it complicated...

[Chas Levin]

A very railway-themed weekend spent in York, the main purpose being to do some research at the NRM:

 

 

 

I walked back through York Station, as I never tire of looking at the curve of the roof and the platforms:

 

 

We also discovered that the hotel we stayed at started out life as the Head Office of the NER:

 

 

 

It's been done up inside of course, but very much in keeping with its age - 1906 - with woodwork in chocolate brown and walls in dark cream. One ground floor door was a massive safe - presumably for the payroll, as everyone received wages in cash in those days.

 

We stopped off for a quick trot round the York Model Railway Show too, which was at York Racecourse:

 

 

It was *very* busy, reassuringly so, in light of recent laments for the poor health of our hobby. There were not only a lot more people but also, I thought, a much better atmosphere - more genuine excitement in the air - than at Ally Pally earlier this month. I'm not sure if that's a North/South thing, or an Easter thing, or just a random difference.

Great to see 'Grantham - The Streamliner Years', especially having just learned that the layout's to be retired next year…

[Rob Pulham]

Hi Chaz,

 

Did you happen notice the diagonal line of rivets down the tender of the narrow gauge loco in your first photo? They presumably follow the line of the coal slope but they are anything but in  a straight line. It was in residence at Shildon for many years which was where I noted it. If you modelled it of course you would be derided for shoddy workmanship...

[Chas Levin]

8 minutes ago, Rob Pulham said:

Hi Chaz,

 

Did you happen notice the diagonal line of rivets down the tender of the narrow gauge loco in your first photo? They presumably follow the line of the coal slope but they are anything but in  a straight line. It was in residence at Shildon for many years which was where I noted it. If you modelled it of course you would be derided for shoddy workmanship...

 

Hello Rob, no, I didn't, but I'll take a look next time I'm there. Interesting question how far we should take prototype imperfections in modelling. Uneven steel panels are a great example: some photos of big mainline express locos with the light reflecting off the sides show some of the body panels look incredibly uneven, bumpy and dented but as you say, anyone modelling that would be thought quite hamfisted!

 

I was there to visit the Search Engine and library and I didn't actually spend much time at all in the main museum - those photos were taken from the Sarch Engine balcony. I also meant to have a closer look at that Pullman, named 'Topaz', as it looked so much shorter than I'd expected...

[Chas Levin]

A little short of modelling time currently, but things are moving, slowly and I'm finally ready to tackle the main body:

 

 

Amongst my weaponry are such thoughts as:

 

1. Roof can’t be cut to length or ends worked on before basic body construction (sides + ends joined), because it has to match the upper body shape, including closely matching the shape of the ends. 
2. Unmodified roof piece can be used to define upper body width and upper spacer sizes though.
3. Floors can’t be done before body either - same reason - plus the seat heights need to be correct for windows, also steps in doorways etc.
4. Lower body width minimum is defined by floor-pan; widening strips could be added, though, & hidden underneath.
5. Upper and lower widths to be fixed by stretchers.
6. Positions of upper body stretcher which also include roof fixing points must be fixed with roof bolts already installed inside roof, but stretchers to fix the upper body width can be fixed in place between the roof-securing ones before the roof is done (though care needed to ensure spacers don't clash).
7. Roof bolts will be secured by loose nuts, tightened up beneath upper body stretchers, so the nuts will only be accessible with body detached from chassis+floor assembly, therefore chassis-to-body fixings need to be accessible from the chassis underside.
8. First stage of body construction - turnunder/tumblehome - already done, but ends' curvature still to do. These, plus vertical angle of sides' tumblehomes, will determine body widths at top and bottom.

I'm in slight danger of going round in circles here, telling myself that each section depends on its neighbours for dimensions: I need to decide on a part of the body to take as a datum and work from that.

Both roof and floorpan can be widened if necessary by adding strips, but perhaps a good starting place would be to do a mock-up using both of them, with the sides held in place, to see if the resulting angles of the sides look right, then create the ends' curvature to match... 🤔

[Bucoops]

I think my preference on this would be to have the roof, ends and sides as a 5 sided box, then have the floor removable, so perhaps start with the nice rigid roof as ground zero? Also probably easier to alter the floorpan width than the roof?

 

That would be my approach I think, but having the roof removable is also totally valid - especially as there's a nice closed in area for the boiler gubbins to have mounting screws, and perhaps hooked into the far end to hold it in place?

[Jon4470]

Hi Chas

 

 

I think that there are also a few internal partitions to include. I’d be inclined to start with these, as they can define the width at top and bottom of the sides. Once tacked in, you could then trial fit the roof section and floor to make sure the widths are correct. Then move on to the spacers. If anything is incorrect it is easy to unsolder and start again.

 

Of course, then you have to make sure you form the ends correctly to match the widths.

[Chas Levin]

11 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

I think my preference on this would be to have the roof, ends and sides as a 5 sided box, then have the floor removable, so perhaps start with the nice rigid roof as ground zero? Also probably easier to alter the floorpan width than the roof?

 

That would be my approach I think, but having the roof removable is also totally valid - especially as there's a nice closed in area for the boiler gubbins to have mounting screws, and perhaps hooked into the far end to hold it in place?

 

2 minutes ago, Jon4470 said:

Hi Chas

 

 

I think that there are also a few internal partitions to include. I’d be inclined to start with these, as they can define the width at top and bottom of the sides. Once tacked in, you could then trial fit the roof section and floor to make sure the widths are correct. Then move on to the spacers. If anything is incorrect it is easy to unsolder and start again.

 

Of course, then you have to make sure you form the ends correctly to match the widths.

 

Thanks gents, food for thought - well, something to sleep on, more accurately!

Definitely easier to alter the floorpan width that the roof, Rich; and I'd forgotten about the internal partitions Jon - bet I'd have remembered them at some really awkward point too!

[Chas Levin]

Ok, gradually getting back in the saddle after weeks of other things having to take precedence but amongst other things, I do now have a much better working space.

 

So, to the Sentinel body. As @Jon4470 pointed out, there are internal partitions of course. How had I forgotten about them? Well, I have a habit of boxing up parts of an ongoing build to guard against losing them while I'm working no some other area and that's fine, but... sometimes, I forget that there are other part in other boxes!! 

 

I've half a mind to use the two white-metal partitions that are part of the original Nu-Cast kit with which I started, if nothing else for their weight, but your suggestion Jon of starting with them as fixed width guides means I suspect that I'd be better off cutting my own out of thick brass, as they'll be more accurate. In fact, while I was up at the NRM recently doing some research, I also asked to view a pair of diagrams of the Sentinels which give quite detailed outlines of the profile so I intend reducing one of those down to 4mm scale and using that to cut templates. There are also two end fold-ups that come as part of the Worsley Works etches, that will form very useful end points I think:

 

 

I'm inclined to agree, Rich @Bucoops that a five sided box that detaches from the chassis is the best bet. This does highlight some aspects of the differences between  a full kit build and an 'assisted scratchbuild' though. I'm used to relying on instructions and even though I know this is quite a simple box, it's still taxing my ingenuity a little at the moment.

 

I'd hoped to keep the sides attached to their surrounding etch pieces for as long as possible, because they have no bottom pieces in the doorways and will therefore be quite flimsy, but I'm at the point where I need to assess dimensions and joining points without those surrounding pieces in the way, so I soldered a piece of scrap etch across each set of doorways to keep things straight once they're snipped free; I'm not hugely keen on doing this as I've had occasional issue de-soldering delicate parts but there seems no other option and it'll be good practice:

 

 

Underneath the etches you can see one of those honeycombed ceramic soldering blocks or panels, which I'm trying out. I tried a plain, solid white one before and that was very powdery, leaving a white coating on anything it touched - including my bench and my fingers! This one's a lot better but still sheds a little residue and I need to find something to fix it to that'll serve as a base so I don't have to keep cleaning up whatever it's been sitting on - the current piece of cardboard is temporary... It certainly avoids acting as a heatsink, or releasing anything that marks the workpiece, as wood sometimes does; neither does it seem to mind phosphoric acid flux... What do other people use please, and am I the only one to find the powdery residue annoying?

[micklner]

I use a 'white" Pad described as a Jewellers Soldering Block I think I bought it from Cooks on Gold , not cheap but zero dust and has not detriorated in the last year + of use.

 

Re soldering, I have  never tried to use low melt on nickel silver , it maybe easier to desolder in due course if it holds  ?

 

I recomend water based Flux for soldering , no awful  fumes and works really well.

 

[Bucoops]

This is what I use - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224395053963

 

Just checked - I bought it in 2017 and I'm still on the first side. It goes a bit brown if you really dump heat onto it, but it's pretty resilient.

[Jon4470]

Hi Chas

 

I used to use a beech mitre block ……..but it has been superseded by a granite block

 

 

The granite was given to us as a sample when we were replacing a kitchen worktop a few years ago. The residue on top of the block will clean up…not that I usually bother about that 😃

 

Also in the photo is my current bottle of flux which is 9% phosphoric acid.

 

As ever, my whole work bench needs to be tidied up!

[Chas Levin]

4 hours ago, micklner said:

I use a 'white" Pad described as a Jewellers Soldering Block I think I bought it from Cooks on Gold , not cheap but zero dust and has not detriorated in the last year + of use.

 

Re soldering, I have  never tried to use low melt on nickel silver , it maybe easier to desolder in due course if it holds  ?

 

I recomend water based Flux for soldering , no awful  fumes and works really well.

 

Interesting, Mick, thank you: that looks similar to the white one I tried but it must be a different type because mine was so dusty!

Edited May 7 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

3 hours ago, Bucoops said:

This is what I use - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224395053963

 

Just checked - I bought it in 2017 and I'm still on the first side. It goes a bit brown if you really dump heat onto it, but it's pretty resilient.

Wow - there are so many different things out there, aren't there? Thanks Rich - is that a flexible mat, like a normal cutting mat? I can't tell from the Ebay listing. Doesit stop heat going through it and heating whatever surface the mat is resting on?

Clearly it's going to me dust-free though, I guess?

Edited May 7 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, Jon4470 said:

Hi Chas

 

I used to use a beech mitre block ……..but it has been superseded by a granite block

 

 

The granite was given to us as a sample when we were replacing a kitchen worktop a few years ago. The residue on top of the block will clean up…not that I usually bother about that 😃

 

Also in the photo is my current bottle of flux which is 9% phosphoric acid.

 

As ever, my whole work bench needs to be tidied up!

That's very interesting too Jon, thank you: I've thought about pieces of stone... Doesn't it act as a bit of a heatsink?

 

I've also tried a sort of stand, with a thin piece some kind of stone-like material on a board base (and with aluminium clips on arms to hold workpieces, but that's not relevant here) and the stone-like surface, whatever it is, did act as a heatsink which is largely why I stopped using it. It even felt very cold to the touch: is granite better, from a heatsink point of view?

Edited May 7 by Chas Levin

[31A]

6 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

What do other people use please, and am I the only one to find the powdery residue annoying?

 

I'd always used scraps of wood as a base for soldering but got fed up with having to clean charred residue from he work (and smoke getting in my eyes!) so recently I've been using a ceramic tile; no idea where it came from but it could be the sort of thing you'd put on a kitchen wall for example.  I thought it might act as too much of a heat sink, and it does a bit but not so much so that you can't use it for soldering on, and the work comes out nice and clean.

 

I picked up a Squires leaflet at the Bristol show which lists a flexible Soldering Mat, which I thought might be useful and may be something like the item @Bucoops has referenced from Ebay, although I can't find it in Squires web site!

[Jon4470]

9 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

That's very interesting too Jon, thank you: I've thought about pieces of stone... Doesn't it act as a bit of a heatsink?

 

I've also tried a sort of stand, with a thin piece some kind of stone-like material on a board base (and with aluminium clips on arms to hold workpieces, but that's not relevant here) and the stone-like surface, whatever it is, did act as a heatsink which is largely why I stopped using it. It even felt very cold to the touch: is granite better, from a heatsink point of view?

I haven’t noticed any problems with the granite acting as a heat sink. My physics/ chemistry knowledge isn’t really good enough to understand the theory behind which materials act as heat sinks though…..granite doesn’t seem to conduct heat very well so doesn’t “draw” the heat away from the workpiece.

I find that the benefits of the granite are stability (it weighs a ton!), cleanliness and the absolutely flat surface. As most soldering operations are (in 4mm) relatively quick, and small,  then perhaps any heat sink effects are limited. The granite piece isn’t huge so that also means that for a long solder seam I tend to tack solder on the granite and then move to a long piece of wood to support the workpiece.

[Bucoops]

11 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Wow - there are so many different things out there, aren't there? Thanks Rich - is that a flexible mat, like a normal cutting mat? I can't tell from the Ebay listing. Doesit stop heat going through it and heating whatever surface the mat is resting on?

Clearly it's going to me dust-free though, I guess?

 

The closest I can think of describing it is sort of a bit like melamine on very rigid hardboard. There's no flex. I don't use it for cutting things, only for soldering. It sits on my regular cutting mat when I use it and it can get a little warm but no more. It will give off a bit of dust if you burn through the top coating (think 480C on a single layer of etch held there for too long!) but not much.

[Chas Levin]

14 hours ago, micklner said:

Re soldering, I have  never tried to use low melt on nickel silver , it maybe easier to desolder in due course if it holds  ?

 

Also meant to say Mick, I can get good joints with 70 degree solder on NS and brass but only by tinning the metal in 145 degree solder first and as these sides are relatively thin and long, I thought the least soldering the better. I don't think de-soldering these backing pieces will be a problem - I've de-soldered worse!

[Chas Levin]

9 hours ago, 31A said:

 

I'd always used scraps of wood as a base for soldering but got fed up with having to clean charred residue from he work (and smoke getting in my eyes!) so recently I've been using a ceramic tile; no idea where it came from but it could be the sort of thing you'd put on a kitchen wall for example.  I thought it might act as too much of a heat sink, and it does a bit but not so much so that you can't use it for soldering on, and the work comes out nice and clean.

 

I picked up a Squires leaflet at the Bristol show which lists a flexible Soldering Mat, which I thought might be useful and may be something like the item @Bucoops has referenced from Ebay, although I can't find it in Squires web site!

 

Now there's a thought: I just removed a couple of very old boxes of tiles from the loft as part the ongoing Operation De-clutter and they were on their way to the bin... Might try one for soldering though... 

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, Jon4470 said:

I haven’t noticed any problems with the granite acting as a heat sink. My physics/ chemistry knowledge isn’t really good enough to understand the theory behind which materials act as heat sinks though…..granite doesn’t seem to conduct heat very well so doesn’t “draw” the heat away from the workpiece.

I find that the benefits of the granite are stability (it weighs a ton!), cleanliness and the absolutely flat surface. As most soldering operations are (in 4mm) relatively quick, and small,  then perhaps any heat sink effects are limited. The granite piece isn’t huge so that also means that for a long solder seam I tend to tack solder on the granite and then move to a long piece of wood to support the workpiece.

 

Interesting Jon; also, how do you secure things to the granite surface when you need to - for instance, when you're soldering something to another piece that needs to be kept still? I'm guessing blutak actually sticks quite easily, does it?

[Chas Levin]

17 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

 

The closest I can think of describing it is sort of a bit like melamine on very rigid hardboard. There's no flex. I don't use it for cutting things, only for soldering. It sits on my regular cutting mat when I use it and it can get a little warm but no more. It will give off a bit of dust if you burn through the top coating (think 480C on a single layer of etch held there for too long!) but not much.

Hm: I'm going to have to get one and try it! Thanks Rich.

[micklner]

44 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

 

Also meant to say Mick, I can get good joints with 70 degree solder on NS and brass but only by tinning the metal in 145 degree solder first and as these sides are relatively thin and long, I thought the least soldering the better. I don't think de-soldering these backing pieces will be a problem - I've de-soldered worse!

Yes I forgot the 145 deg bit was needed as well!!. The only possible problem is getting the part to release without everything else falling apart , no idea if a thin layer of low melt will hold well in use, to allow for adjustments etc etc..

[Rob Pulham]

I have used a sheet of plate glass to solder onto for over 10 years without issue. I do periodically give it a scrape with a stanley knife blade but aside from that, it doesn't get much love.

 

Just an observation on your soldering scraps of etch onto the sides to help keep them rigid Chaz. It's a useful tactic and one which I use myself but I would suggest trying to use the minimum amount of solder rather than the blobs visible on the photos. This applies to all soldered joints not just the ones under discussion.

 

This is for a couple of reasons. 

 

1 - Solder in itself is inherently weak and when soldered joints fail in my experience, it's generally the thick solder that has snapped. A soldered joint with the minimum of solder really is much stronger.

 

2 - With less solder, there is less cleaning up to do. Which is even more important, if the solder is only there as a temporary measure.