East Barnet Joint Stock - a workbench

[Chas Levin]

21 minutes ago, MikeTrice said:

First off it might benefit to break these livery discussions into a separate topic as they might be lost within this one.

 

I found I had more images of Railcars than I thought. Going through them I can really only make out a single panel line not two as quoted. However enlarging the Nick Campling images, even though they are screened for publication a second fainter inner line can be made out. So this raises the question whether the line was thinner or a different colour.

 

Just noticed Yeadon Vol 12 page 63 shows the double lining quite well.

Good idea Mike, re separate topic, I'll sort that out.

 

As to the relative widths and spacing of the lines, it might be difficult to find definitive info if the only sources are photos of the sort of age and resolution we've been looking at so far, but you never know...

Edited June 26, 2022 by Chas Levin

[Jon4470]

4 hours ago, micklner said:

I believe the Nu Cast version is a Dia 96?.

 

History here

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/Railcar/sentinel.php

Hi Mick

 

As I understand it the D96 and D97 are virtually identical. The two main differences are that the top lights don’t open on the D97 (replaced by drop lights) and the sliding window behind the drivers door was replaced by a wooden shutter. 
 

in the kit the top lights don’t have any framing to show that they could open and the panel behind the drivers door is solid…so I assume it is “wooden”.

 

TBH the two diagrams are so similar that it makes little difference.
 

Jon

[micklner]

21 minutes ago, Jon4470 said:

Hi Mick

 

As I understand it the D96 and D97 are virtually identical. The two main differences are that the top lights don’t open on the D97 (replaced by drop lights) and the sliding window behind the drivers door was replaced by a wooden shutter. 
 

in the kit the top lights don’t have any framing to show that they could open and the panel behind the drivers door is solid…so I assume it is “wooden”.

 

TBH the two diagrams are so similar that it makes little difference.
 

Jon

As mine is Dia 96 "Hope" that is near enough !!

[Jon4470]

1 minute ago, micklner said:

As mine is Dia 96 "Hope" that is near enough !!

Certainly is……..Hope was the last one in service I think.

[Chas Levin]

Meanwhile in C2-land, a coat of Klear on the light green panel areas serves the double purpose of providing a better surface for transfers and raising the gloss level to be closer to the black, white and dark green areas, so that when everything's under a satin varnish coat there'll hopefully be less visible difference in glossiness:

 

[Chas Levin]

On 25/06/2022 at 19:13, Rob Pulham said:

This is really very useful Chas, I haven't yet got my hands on a 7mm Sentinel railcar but I do have a Clayton complete with trailer. I just need to remember all this research when I get to building it. The good news is that I have all the books mentioned so that's a good start.

Rob, not sure if you'll have seen it yet but at Mike Trice's suggestion I've started a new thread in the UK Prototype subforum on this railcar livery question:

Amongst other things, Mike's added links to some fascinating photos which make things a lot clearer, they're well worth a look!

Edited June 27, 2022 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

On 25/06/2022 at 23:16, Jon4470 said:

Chas

 

You could look at this site

https://www.lightrailwaystores.co.uk/collections/works-plate-styles?page=3

 

This used to be called Narrow Planet I think. I used them for name plates for Spencer.

 

Jon

Thanks again for this link Jon; I've been in touch, but they're understandably worried that their 4mm scale plates at only 3mm high would be rendered too illegible by further reduction. I have some other ideas though...

Edited June 28, 2022 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

In the meantime, plenty to be getting on with - transfers being high on the list:

 

 

I've only been able to find a handful of contemporary shots showing the backs of C2 bunkers, but enough to learn that the number was right up underneath the lining along the top of the bunker, with the "No." equidistant from the left-hand lining and the middle lamp iron, while on the other side of the lamp iron, the leftmost number is very close to the iron's right-hand side, a much smaller gap than the one between the rightmost number and the right-hand lining, even on four-digit numbers.

 

By the way, this photo gives a much more accurate rendition of the colours - especially the light green - than I usually manage!

 

I also did some fiddly soldering, hand-rails on the NER Birdcage Brake: some cleaning up to do, but they're fairly even and level:

 

[Chas Levin]

After some cleaning up, the handrails have been glued in place on the Slaters NER brake - cyano from the inside where possible. I put the short verticals in place first, then soldered the end short horizontals to them, then trimmed the longer side horizontals to length and soldered them in place too, having run two pieces right through the body to protude a tiny amount and provide the middle fixing points. With pieces of card under the sections already in place I was able to do it without melting any plastic!

 

 

 

 

The lamp's hanging loose so it can be pulled out slightly and masked off during painting.

[Chas Levin]

Various finsihing and detailing is under way on the C2 - here, it's the front lamp (for non-express passenger working) courtesy of Modelu. I cut it off the 3D printing supports first - though that makes handling more fiddly - partly to allow painting the underside but mainly to deepen the small indentation underneath the rear of the base into a proper hole to allow the lamp to sit on the lamp iron to a suitable depth. Even so, I still had to trim the top of the iron a little:

 

 

 

Also visible in these pictures is the front coupling and the running number transfers (which are on straight - the '5' just looks a little odd from this angle!).

Spacing these numbers was fairly easy to do by eye as there's no set pattern (at any rate not one that I could establish from looking at lots of photos) as to the spacing of the numerals in relation to the buffer beam's centre line and the right-hand buffer. Likewise the rear bunker number, where - as mentioned in an earlier post - they apparently started with the leftmost number surprisingly close to the centre lamp iron and worked outwards, even if that meant, in cases of three digit running numbers, a large and asymmetrical gap between the rightmost number and the right-hand lining.

The numbers on the bunker sides however call for a little more thought.

The complete number needs to be equidistant from the sides, but the numerals also need to be the right distance from each other - the 'kerning', to use the correct term, so you can't just start from one side and concentrate on the kerning, because the gap the other side between the last numeral and its nearby lining might not be the same as that on the side you started with!

In looking at how to do this and measuring various things, I looked at how the numerals sit in relation to the centre line of the bunker's lining panel and found that the left-hand side of the second '1' conincides exactly with the centre line:

 

 

I also confirmed this to be the case on the only other '101x' C2 of which I have a similar photo, 1018. Other numbers don't necessarily follow this rule of course, with the centre line cutting into various numerals, as to be expected.

Dimensions in the crop above are in mm and where I've written 'Bunker centre line' it should really say that it's the centre line of the lining panel, which isn't quite the same.

The 12.5mm 'inner lining' measurement is as measured on my model (so it's slightly innacurate prototypically) and the photo was printed to conform to that scale measurement before the other dimensions were taken.

 

Edit: If - like me - you're using Fox transfers, beware: their numerals other than '1' are ever so slightly narrower than those in the above prototype photo, so centering the left-hand side of the second '1' doesn't quite work, leaving you - depending on how you re-jig the kerning - with 0.3-0.5mm greater gap between the '5' and its neighbouring lining to that between the first '1' and its lining! It doesn't sound like much but the eye spots these things amazingly quickly.

Work still in progress but it looks like aligning that side of the second '1' 0.25 mm right of the centre line should do it...

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

I finally broke through my Obsessive Kerning Stiction and got the bunker numbers started. It's another moment however to reflect on the vital importance of accurcy at every stage, forced as I was to compromise the alignment between the footplate and the bunker beading: I used the footplate, on the basis that the lining's also aligned with that and the slight rearward tilt of the actual bunker is something I'll just have to live with!

 

One of the things that got me over the accuracy hump was taking a closer look at that side view of 1013 as shown in previous posts. I realised firstly that all measuring for the lettering must have been done purely going by the main gold areas of the lettering, ignoring the shading. I came to this conclusion after further careful measurements - it may seem obvious to some, but I'd been unsure as to whether things were measured that way, or using the outermost area of each letter, including the shaded parts - hope that info's of use to others looking at setting out shaded lettering.

The other thing that really helped was discovering - in the course of trying to measure more accurately - that the 1013 numbers in that photo are not in fact central either! 😅

Just as I had found at my first attempt, the right-hand gap from '3' to inner lining is slightly larger than the left-hand one from the first '1' to the lining... So I plunged in and, by siting the second '1' half a mm right of centre, I've got the difference in side gaps much the same as the photo of 1013. Then, to my simultaneous delight and frustration, I did the other side - the one with the step - and somehow ended up with the gaps almost exactly equal - go figure:

 

 

Meanwhile, in other news, while reading this LNER Info thread (https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8560) about GNR lamp iron fitting practices and how they changed in LNER days (following on from @jwealleans post on the Sentinel livery thread about a batch of K3s still being fitted with extra GNR lamp irons in the 1930s) I saw mention that Part 3b of the RCTS GNR books has an appendix with GNR headlamp codes. I bought all four GN RCTS volumes when I realised how useful the C2 one was going to be on this build, but I must admit I put the others on the shelf, intending to look at them when I undertake projects for which they containt relevent info... Lesson here: always at any rate leaf through new library additions, just in case...

 

How is this directly relevant? Well, the single pre-grouping lamp from Modelu shown in a previous post is going on the high central iron in front of the chimney, because I was following the RCH / LNER / BR Eastern region codes of a single high central lamp for non-express passenger workings. All the photos I've so far found - in the RCTS book and elsewhere - show that code on passenger workings, all except this one, a well-known one, also seen in the LNER Magazine and well within the public domain, so I hope no-one will mind my reproducing a crop from it here:

 

 

This puzzled me - why the second lamp on the righthand front footplate - and also frustrated me, because the Modelu lamps look very good and I would have liked to use more than one; here's how the first is looking so far, on a cocktail stick for painting purposes and I hope you'll agree that Modelu have as usual produced a superb little item:

 

 

It turns out that the earlier GNR Engine Headlamp Codes, in operation until the end of January 1902, specified exactly what's shown in that c.1900 photo of 1505 on the way to Ally Pally - one central and high, one righthand footplate, for category 3 workings: "Ordinary passenger and excursion trains booked to stop at other than principal stations and trains of ECS".

So, a second lamp will be prepared and I'm very pleased ☺️

[Compound2632]

I note the photo of No. 1505 shows a lamp iron on the door and one at the top of the smokebox, like Midland engines before the adoption of the RCH headcodes in Feb 1903 (do you mean 1903 or 2?); that made two lamp irons redundant so the smokebox door ones vanished rather quickly (useful for dating photos). Was the same the case with Great Northern engines?

 

I note the picket fence of lamp irons on the buffer beam, implying some even more Byzantine headcodes for cross-river working in the London area even than those of the Midland. And then the brackets for the destination board...

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I note the photo of No. 1505 shows a lamp iron on the door and one at the top of the smokebox, like Midland engines before the adoption of the RCH headcodes in Feb 1903 (do you mean 1903 or 2?); that made two lamp irons redundant so the smokebox door ones vanished rather quickly (useful for dating photos). Was the same the case with Great Northern engines?

 

I note the picket fence of lamp irons on the buffer beam, implying some even more Byzantine headcodes for cross-river working in the London area even than those of the Midland. And then the brackets for the destination board...

Yes, and my favourite of the entire forest is that wonderfully Edwardian looking double height one on the right-hand side!

 

I did mean 1902 for the change of codes, according to the RCTS appendix's GNR headlamp codes: January 31st 1902 is the date given, apparently a year earlier than the Midland.

 

These earlier GNR codes run to 15 different lamp positions, as part of 19 rules or points, rather more than the RCH's 9, though only three use the neighbouring pairs at left or right sides.

 

There's an interesting note after point 19 about lamp irons fitted half-way up the chimney: "Chimneys were fitted with a lamp-irons half-way up. This extra iron was used to indicate specials when added to the normal headlamp code, as related. Chimney lamp-irons were carried by all Stirling engines, and perpetuated by Ivatt until the standard RCH headcodes came into force on 1st February 1902. Chimney lamp-irons were then discarded and entirely omitted from later-built engines." This isn't what we see in that photo of 1505 though, neither is it what's being used with a single lamp for RCH-style non-express passenger indication in the various slightly later GNR C2 photos in the RCTS book and elsewhere. The mid-chimney irons can be seen in various C2 photos in the Ivatt-era RCTS book (GN Vol 3a) however, such as the one of 1013 I've used as a lining and lettering template and reproduced earlier in this thread, as well as 1009 also on page 54 and 1501 on page 56, as well as various other locos, such as the H1s (most clearly on page 19). Most of the rest of the C2 photos are later, with shorter chimneys.

 

As well as multiple lamp-irons and the usual red and white lens colours, the GNR also used green, blue and purple to indicate various routes and the presence of GN engines on other companies' lines: did any other companies used multiple colours and has anyone yet modelled working loco lights in colours other than red and white?

 

I worked initially from the Isinglass drawing and had only collected a few photos - mainly of LNER and BR days - because I intended at that stage painting in LNER black. It was only later in the build, after deciding on GNR and looking for suitable photos, that I too spotted the presence of both the upper irons, something I'd not seen before; I'm not sure of the exact date of the change to having the upper one only. It's not the only minor (I think) anachronism on this build - hand-rails, coal rails and buffer beam fittings are also a little out of sync, again because of my change of livery so late in the build. To be honest, I'd have preferred the iron on the door for aesthetic reasons, but having included the straight hand-rail there, I've gone with the higher position: I'm certainly not going to start stripping paint and moving lamp-irons at this stage!

 

 

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

As well as multiple lamp-irons and the usual red and white lens colours, the GNR also used green, blue and purple to indicate various routes and the presence of GN engines on other companies' lines: did any other companies used multiple colours and has anyone yet modelled working loco lights in colours other than red and white?

 

The Midland used purple and green, with various discs by day, chiefly for working to South London exchange sidings, coal depots etc. - so similar circumstances to the GN ones. There's a long list in Midland Style, covering various dates. 

[Chas Levin]

21 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The Midland used purple and green, with various discs by day, chiefly for working to South London exchange sidings, coal depots etc. - so similar circumstances to the GN ones. There's a long list in Midland Style, covering various dates. 

Thanks Stephen, very interesting.

 

I'm now thinking about using those two and three colour LEDs for lamp locos... 🤔

[jwealleans]

The GE also used purple, but their preference was for discs in daylight.  That use persisted well into LNER days, being a routing indicator on the suburban services.

[Chas Levin]

Work continues and while preparing the second lamp took quite a bit of today's C2 time, I've also added the driver, alongside the fireman. They're both in fairly relaxed mode, suitable for both standing in a station, or coasting gently along a country stretch - here's a quick work-in-progress bird's eye view:

 

 

The coal's an obvious next step; I'm planning a 'hump' of black Milliput to supply the basic shape of the heap, araldited to the bunker top. Some careful shaping around the edges will hide those coal-rail legs, too...

 

And the NER Birdcage Brake has been glazed - with my usual excessive fixings (and the roof only perched):

 

 

 

[Ian Rathbone]

On 13/07/2022 at 14:40, Chas Levin said:

One of the things that got me over the accuracy hump was taking a closer look at that side view of 1013 as shown in previous posts. I realised firstly that all measuring for the lettering must have been done purely going by the main gold areas of the lettering, ignoring the shading.

This may be true for horizontal dimensions but for vertical spacing it was included. Aesthetically lettering looks better if slightly above centre line, so if the dimension down to the gold, and up to the black, are equal, then the gold part will be slightly above the centre. I use the principal when setting out most lettering and numbers that use shading (or more accurately ‘blocking’).

 

Ian R

[Chas Levin]

10 hours ago, Ian Rathbone said:

This may be true for horizontal dimensions but for vertical spacing it was included. Aesthetically lettering looks better if slightly above centre line, so if the dimension down to the gold, and up to the black, are equal, then the gold part will be slightly above the centre. I use the principal when setting out most lettering and numbers that use shading (or more accurately ‘blocking’).

 

Ian R

Thanks Ian, that's very interesting; these 'tricks of the eye' - where we see things slightly differently for psychological reasons - always fascinate me.

I have to say though that I'll probably leave this C2 lettering where it is and store your tip away for the next project. This is already the second go (after the first attempt with the second '1' dead centre had to come off) and I don't think I can face moving the numbers again, not to mention the possibility of marking the surface further.

Also, I don't think the level of accuracy on this model of the beading-to-footplate dimensions and of the lining alignment is so high that the aesthetic improvement gained from moving the lettering now would be worthwhile.

I'm not sure why I found this lettering so troublesome; I've done plenty of other vehicles before without any bother. I wonder whether it's to do with the amount of work that's gone into this loco and the consequent feeling that there's more at stake in getting the last details right?

Edited July 15, 2022 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

Two lamps now installed - I'm still so pleased to have discovered the earlier headlamp codes so that I can do this:

 

 

I might paint up a third one, with a red lens, to sit towards the rear of of the left-hand tank top, with a coal pick, shovel and so forth, as I've seen quite a few photos showing tools and a spare lamp being carried there...

 

Looking at this picture, I think it's about time for some buffers too.

 

(Edited because I managed to get a better picture where both the lamps are reasonably in focus!)

Edited July 20, 2022 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

Application of transfers to the C2 continues, but was temporarily held up by a mishap with Johnson's Klear. Something good came of it though, which was my learning how to remove the stuff using ammonia!

Here's one tank side following my unbelievably stupid attempt to remove a hair from the nearly dry Klear, an error only compounded by my equally misguided impulse to apply more Klear in an attempt to re-settle the surface - it's the bumpy area, just forward of the cab door:

 

 

This photo is actually very flattering - it looked far worse in reality, but it's difficult to show the effect of light at the right angle in photos.

 

Then, just as I was sitting back wondering how on earth I could disguise it or ever live with it, I saw that I'd completely missed another bumpy area, in the upper right front corner, the one nearest the camera (apologies for the poor focus). That one was simply due to hasty and heavy-handed application, which I'd missed because I was focussing on the other bad patch 😬.

 

Looking online, there isn't a great deal about removal but I found a thread here on RM Web recommending the use of diluted ammonia... It took a few days to pluck up the courage (while also awaiting the arrival of a small bottle of 9.5% ammonia solution, sold for household cleaning purposes) but eventually I realised I could of course try this out on my trusty practice panel. I dliuted a small amount of the ammonia by about 1:1 - making it roughly a 5% solution - and brushed / scrubbed / wiped gently but firmly with a lint-free cotton bud over part of a test area of Klear, applied the preivous day over both cellulose aerosol and Phoenix Precision enamel; and I'm very pleased to be able to confirm it really does work, and very quickly, cleanly and easily.

 

In the photo below, you can see where the half of the dark green rectangle nearest the camera is still inder the Klear whilst I've removed the half that's further away, with no mess, no streaks and no harm (watched over several days) to the paint:

 

 

So, still having to pluck up a little courage to apply ammonia to the actual model, here's the result after removal of the Klear:

 

 

And here's the result a few days later, following a much better coat of Klear and some transfers:

 

 

Still hardly the most pristine, glass-like finish, but vastly better than it would have been had I left those bumps in place!

 

The transfers are now all done, with protective coats of Ronseal going over them and over various other areas, leaving just buffers, coal and spectacle glazing to do.

 

The Slaters Birdcage Brake is now almost ready for the paint shop:

 

 

There's a really excellent and very detailed build of one of these kits in the latest Scalefour News (228) which arrived considerably too late for this build, but I'd intended this to be a fairly 'straight out of the box' project for a quick layout vehicle anyway (with the exception of a working lamp) so in a way I was relieved: if I'd seen the Scalefour article before I'd started, I'm sure I'd have been tempted... 😉

Edited July 26, 2022 by Chas Levin

[teaky]

Top notch bit of rescue work there Chas.  The end result is excellent.

[Chas Levin]

Thanks Rob; sometimes it feels more like a chemistry experiment than a model making exercise - linseed oil, ammonia, white spirit, 3:1 meths, isopropyl alcohol. Good to know what works and what doesn't though.

Ha - just noticed the General Melchett quote in your posting signature 😁

[Chas Levin]

All the transfers are now done on the C2 and safely encased under a couple of coats of varnish; turning my attention to the buffers - the first time I've used Gibson sprung ones - I realised you need some way of ensuring they protrude to the same length on the springs, as it wouldn't look very smart if they were different lengths. I don't know what others do about this question - it wouldn't be the first time I've been way to precise and picky for something that's probably widely done quickly and by eye... but it makes me happy!

Measuring parallel housing types from photos, there's generally about half the length of the housing showing between the housing front end and the rear of the buffer face (for instance, if the length of the fixed buffer housing measures 2mm, there's about 1mm of the thick buffer shank showing, between the housing and the rear of the flat buffer face), so I cut a piece of thick plasticard - long enough to hold easily - to use as a spacer, gripping it gently between the buffer beam surface and the rear of the buffer face, while bending back the metal leg from the rear of the buffer inside the beam with my other hand - yet another case where the lining stand provides the ideal way to hold the loco body steadily and safely, with both hands free.

 

 

 

Just to be clear by the way, I keep going on about the lining stand not with any thought of praise/admiration/likes for myself, but for the designer of it - Ian Rathbone! All I did was build it from his book and to borrow a phrase from the IT world, I've become a platform evangelist (ha - unintended pun on 'platform' - ha - triple pun in fact: IT platform, lining platform &railway platform 🤣).

 

Also by the way, I meant to say when I posted the pics of the lamps newly added, that as well as the LNER Info forum thread I referenced earlier here in regard to GNR headlamp codes, there's another very interesting thread on headlamp colours and there are some excellent photos of original GNR lamps where the body is black, but the handle, the rim around the lens and a plate inscribed 'G.N.R.' above the lens are all in brass, which is why I did them that way. There's some discussion there too about different lamp colours - the painted bodies, not just the lenses - at different times, but black seems to be a fairly legitimate choice for the period I'm (reasonably accurately) aiming for here.

 

Meanwhile, in other news, the Slaters NER Brake was masked up, primed (Halfords Plastic Primer) and then had below the solebars sprayed black (Halfords Matt), with the roof given a coat of Testors Dullcote over the Primer:

 

 

 

I noticed that the secondary post-priming masking for the black underside hadn't prevented a very slight mist of black finding it's way underneath the upside-down vehicle and settling on the roof. Although I don't weather my models, I do sometimes think that totally pristine white or grey roofs can look a little plasticky, so I left the black in place and put the lacquer over it - you can only just see it in the photo above but I'll show it in further photos with the next stage of painting...

 

Some touching in of the upper reaches of black and then on to the red oxide, as this van's going to be in LNER livery.

[Chas Levin]

Conn rod colour: I've never been entirely happy with the blackened look for a loco that's fairly recently outshopped, or one that's kept in clean condition. I tried blackening on the first loco I built (the DJH J9/10) and thought I'd try something different this time. I love the look of the oiled steel you see on a loco's motion in real life (though I know of course that preserved locos don't lead the hard lives of working ones - especially freight) so this was an ideal opportunity to try out Phoenix Precision's "Oily Steel" (winner, as many will remember, of the 2015 prize for Most Evocative Steam Era Paint Title).

The first coat straight out of the tin certainly looked like oiled steel, but I thought it also looked a little light and a little bright - almost glittery - it's a metallic paint, to be fair. I put on another coat but this time mixed 3:1 Oily Steel to PPP Matt Black, to darken it and bring down the shine a little. It's pretty close to where I was aiming - a very thinned black enamel wash and some satin varnish will also help I think: