East Barnet Joint Stock - a workbench

[Chas Levin]

I remembered I have the end of a bottle of Modelmates Oil Wash (carefully sealed up in hopes of preserving it without having to dilute it too much as they don't seem to make it any more) - subtle difference but an improvement I think:

 

 

Representing full sized bare metal parts convincingly to scale is quite difficult I think - stands to reason of course, as it's bound to be easier to represent painted surfaces with paint...

[Ian Rathbone]

One needs to spend some time preparing the rods. I use plenty of solder to laminate rods so that there is no gap showing. I then file every edge, firstly with a coarse -ish file to remove the cusps, then a very fine Swiss file to remove any marks, then at 45deg around all edges to take off burrs, and finally polishing all faces and corners with fine emery. I then chemically blacken the visible faces by vigorous rubbing with a soaked cotton bud and, finally, when dry, a very gentle stroke or two with a fibreglass brush. This gives the NS a steely sheen.

 

The C2 is looking very good, well done.

 

Ian R

 

 

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, Ian Rathbone said:

One needs to spend some time preparing the rods. I use plenty of solder to laminate rods so that there is no gap showing. I then file every edge, firstly with a coarse -ish file to remove the cusps, then a very fine Swiss file to remove any marks, then at 45deg around all edges to take off burrs, and finally polishing all faces and corners with fine emery. I then chemically blacken the visible faces by vigorous rubbing with a soaked cotton bud and, finally, when dry, a very gentle stroke or two with a fibreglass brush. This gives the NS a steely sheen.

 

The C2 is looking very good, well done.

 

Ian R

 

 

Thanks Ian, for the approval and also for the advice on rods.

 

To be honest I realised while painting the rods that I hadn't cleaned up the edges as well as I should have done and thought about doing more on them, then reasoned that the faces look ok and the edges aren't very visible: you've inspired me to strip them and do a better job. A good thing I think, as the upper edges are actually very visible...

 

Actually, one of the examples of conn rod colour and appearance I was aiming towards (not very successfully as yet) were the photos of 30936 Repton you posted on your WT thread recently (and I think on Tony W's thread on here too?).

Was the motion on that done the way you described above? It appears to have a sort of slightly bronzed tinge to it which I thought must be done with paint but is it actually blackening and if so, what gives it that tinge please?

Edited August 1, 2022 by Chas Levin

[Ian Rathbone]

The blacking is mostly removed with the fibreglass brush stroking. What is left is something that looks more like steel - you can simply repeat the process to get a condition you’re happy with.

 

I use a mix of Humbrol 85 & 70 for general chassis gunge and that is what is on the rods of the Schools, plus satin varnish to give an oily look. On the rods adjacent to the cylinders there is a light touch of H10 (Service Brown) which is a good grease colour. 
 

If you do choose to paint the C2 rods then spray rather than brush.
 

Ian R

[Chas Levin]

2 hours ago, Ian Rathbone said:

The blacking is mostly removed with the fibreglass brush stroking. What is left is something that looks more like steel - you can simply repeat the process to get a condition you’re happy with.

 

I use a mix of Humbrol 85 & 70 for general chassis gunge and that is what is on the rods of the Schools, plus satin varnish to give an oily look. On the rods adjacent to the cylinders there is a light touch of H10 (Service Brown) which is a good grease colour. 
 

If you do choose to paint the C2 rods then spray rather than brush.
 

Ian R

Thanks Ian, much appreciated; the rods have now been stripped and had the edges re-soldered, with filing and further stages to follow, photos in due course...

[Chas Levin]

The C2 conn rods are now looking considerably better! 😀

First they were stripped in cellulose thinners and in the second picture the poor state of the edges is very obvious:

 

 

 

Here they are after the edges were re-filled with solder and then filed and smoothed back with progressively finer abrasives:

 

 

 

And here they are after blackening has been applied and then gone over with a fibreglass brush:

 

 

 

Thanks again @Ian Rathbone for explaining how to improve them - I think they look heaps better! Re-reading the directions you gave, I realised why I hadn't got on well with chemical blackening before: I didn't realise you're supposed to go over it after application with a fibreglass brush. Actually these photos don't quite do them justice - in reality they look even better and remarkably like steel, given that they're actually a combination of nickel silver and solder.

Very pleased with this result - I'd put off dealing with them because I wasn't sure how to get them looking right.

I'm not sure whether I'm going to add any paint / oil effect though - I might leave them as they are. I'll try out some effects on a test piece...

[Chas Levin]

I also took the opportunity to try out another Birchwood Casey product in addtion to the Super Blue I already had, their Brass Black. The Super Blue is supposed to be for "steel & hardened steels containing nickel & chrome alloys", while the Brass Black is to "blacken or antique brass, copper and bronze" (and no, I've not seen the word 'antique' used as a verb before either!).

 

Given that nickel silver is copper, nickel and zinc and 145 degree solder is tin, lead and cadmium I wondered whether either Birchwood product would produce a uniform finish across the bare metal as well as the solder, as well as wondering whether the two products might produce different finishes - here are some comparison photos.

 

First, a single application onto freshly abraded nickel silver, Brass Black on the left and Super Blue on the right - I didn't spend time finishing the surface very smoothly as this was just a rough test:

 

 

There's certainly a difference and this also shows why I'd not been very successful with Super Blue in the past - without taking off that surface crud with the fibreglass brush, it doesn't look very convincing, though the Brass Black doesn't look too bad.

 

However, here's the effect after a fairly gentle going over with the fibreglass brush - again, rough and ready but a considerable improvement - please excuse the less than ideal photos, I had difficulty with lighting...

 

 

I also noted Ian's point that the process can be repeated, again something I'd not tried - here's a second application, which gives some interesting depth and subtle colour variation:

 

 

And after a gentle go with the fibreglass brush:

 

 

I then tried the blackening over solder patches - again, rough and ready but it shows how the two products react:

 

 

And here are those areas are after a little work with the fibreglass brush:

 

 

While I actually preferred the blacker colour of the Brass Black, it doesn't seem to work quite as well on the solder as the Super Blue - these two photos make the difference a little clearer:

 

 

 

So I went with the Super Blue after all on the rods and I'm very pleased with the result, as shown in the previous post. Interesting to have tried the Brass Black though and next time I need to blacken some brass, I'll have the right stuff to do it.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Chas Levin

[Rob Pulham]

Hi Chaz,

 

If you want to polish but not remove quite as much of the blackening from rods or wheel faces, you can do a nice job with a dry cotton bud or piece of kitchen towel. Dry they are ever so slightly abrasive without being harsh

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, Rob Pulham said:

Hi Chaz,

 

If you want to polish but not remove quite as much of the blackening from rods or wheel faces, you can do a nice job with a dry cotton bud or piece of kitchen towel. Dry they are ever so slightly abrasive without being harsh

Thanks Rob - I did give them a slight polish with the kitchen towel I'd used to dry them, before using the fibreglass brush and you're right that kitchen towel removes very little material. I also noted that the Birchwood Casey bottles advise using steel wool, which I'd imagine is similar to fibreglass in abrasiveness.

 

I was quite happy with the amount the fibreglass takes off though and quite taken too with the process of doing one application, using the fibreglass brush, then doing a second application and using the brush again. As I think you can just about see in the post above with the piece of test nickel silver, it looks to me like two applications gives a little variety of colour and finish.

 

I'm going to try out some oil-effect paint on the test piece tomorrow, also a couple of types of varnish, partly for an oil-like sheen and partly to protect the finish.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

Meanwhile, in other news, the Slaters NER Birdcage Brake is progressing through the paint shop - the red oxide is Phoenix Precision's LNER one and the lighting's made it look quite light, a little more so than in reality:

 

 

[Chas Levin]

A quick question on the subject if blackening: can you solder blackened brass? And if so, does it affect the strength of the bond?

 

It occurred to me that I'll need to do the crankpin securing washers when I (finally) solder them in place and doing so before fixing them would mean that I could do the edges without getting the blackening solution elsewhere on the motion, even if the washer faces would still need a spot on them after filing...

[micklner]

Never tried but I doubt that you can solder onto the Blacking. I have never tried , easiest way is to try on some scrap brass.

 

I believe handrails, I presume this model is in LNER period? . They were either body colour or painted  white, I have never seen a photo in white . No idea re the NER period.

 

One of mine , not a easy kit !! Once for me was enough !!.

 

 

 

 

 

[Chas Levin]

Morning Mick, yes, I shall try soldering to the blackened NS shortly, but I also wondered whether it might affect the long-term strength of the bond, even if it appeared to join effectively at first; I wondered if anyone might reply to say "oh yes, tried that, everything looked fine but then six weeks later I came into the railway room to find a pile of bits..." 🙄

 

For the brake van's handrails, I was a bit puzzled actually, as I'd found photos online of body-colour rails, but also white and black. I went with black, though I can see that white was more common; I had the impression - possibly ill-founded - that black was associated with earlier times (certainly with pre-grouping) and white with later, more safety-conscious times. You're righ that this van will be LNER livery, but on the early side (to allow for running alongside pre-grouping vehicles that hadn't yet been repainted in LNER colours.

 

I also found written references to both black and white - Steve Banks for instance mentions both colours having been used during the LNER period, so I'm hoping my choice can pass as reasonably - or possibly - prototypical...

 

Edited, after a quick look at Tatlow's 'LNER Wagons Vol 1 Southern Area', which has some variety: the section on GC and CLC goods brakes does have photos of them in LNER days with white rails, but the section on GN goods brakes has LNER period photos that I would say are definitely not white; due to the nature of the B&W film stock however, I don't think you can tell whether they were body colour or black, because other areas that were surely black - footboards and axleboxes for instance - appear to be the same colour as the red oxide wooden body. And just to add to the variety, the section on GE vans has examples of both - definitely white and also ones that might be body colour or black...

Edited August 7, 2022 by Chas Levin

[jwealleans]

I've seen people use brass blackening to prevent items sticking together when soldered, so I suspect not.   I certainly clean anything blackened before soldering, but that's more because it's good practice than because of any experience with items not sticking.

[Chas Levin]

Thanks Jonathan - I'll still experiment just out of interest, but I too would have assumed that blackening counts as an impurity and would therefore affect the bond, hence my initial doubts. The active ingredients in the Birchwood Casey products are acidic and therefore I assume the blackening effect is produced by a reaction with the metal, so the black colour we value is a new compound - Nickel Selenide or some such? - which would certainly be seen by the solder as an impurity.

 

So, assuming that I have to add bright brass crankpin securing washers in front of my beautiful blackened conn rods... what do other people do at that point? I've only built one loco before - the DJH J9/10 - and I didn't use checmical blackening on the rods for that, I just gave them a wash of very thinned Humbrol matt black which I can also do here of course.

 

In case it seems like an odd question altogether, the reason I'm asking is that I'm thinking that using Super Blue - even tiny amounts - on the soldered crankpin washers would inevitably result in some finding its way by capillary action into the crankpin-conn rod-wheel boss assembly and removing it really thoroughly (to prevent continued acid action over time) without dunking in sufficient water to upset things like the cork layer inside insulated Romford wheels might be difficult, if not impossible...

Edited August 7, 2022 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

12 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

A quick question on the subject if blackening: can you solder blackened brass? And if so, does it affect the strength of the bond?

A quick test and I can confirm that soldering to blackened metal definitely does not work!!

 

 

 

I was almost entirely unable to wet the metal with the solder in spite of liberal use of flux and though I did manage to get some solder to stick to the surface, it was so poorly joined that minimal force with a toothpick end dislodged it.

Stands to reason - especially in light of Jonathan W's noting having seen people use blackening as a solder barrier - but interesting to try it out. Glad I asked the question though, as otherwise Jonathan you might not have mentioned that and it's potentially a very useful trick for those situations where you do want to exclude solder...

 

Looks like I'll be painting the crankpin washers to match the rods... unless: just remembered I also have these:

 

 

What about soldering the (clean) brass washers in place, but then glueing these pre-blackened NS covers over them? 🤔

[micklner]

4 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Morning Mick, yes, I shall try soldering to the blackened NS shortly, but I also wondered whether it might affect the long-term strength of the bond, even if it appeared to join effectively at first; I wondered if anyone might reply to say "oh yes, tried that, everything looked fine but then six weeks later I came into the railway room to find a pile of bits..." 🙄

 

For the brake van's handrails, I was a bit puzzled actually, as I'd found photos online of body-colour rails, but also white and black. I went with black, though I can see that white was more common; I had the impression - possibly ill-founded - that black was associated with earlier times (certainly with pre-grouping) and white with later, more safety-conscious times. You're righ that this van will be LNER livery, but on the early side (to allow for running alongside pre-grouping vehicles that hadn't yet been repainted in LNER colours.

 

I also found written references to both black and white - Steve Banks for instance mentions both colours having been used during the LNER period, so I'm hoping my choice can pass as reasonably - or possibly - prototypical...

 

Edited, after a quick look at Tatlow's 'LNER Wagons Vol 1 Southern Area', which has some variety: the section on GC and CLC goods brakes does have photos of them in LNER days with white rails, but the section on GN goods brakes has LNER period photos that I would say are definitely not white; due to the nature of the B&W film stock however, I don't think you can tell whether they were body colour or black, because other areas that were surely black - footboards and axleboxes for instance - appear to be the same colour as the red oxide wooden body. And just to add to the variety, the section on GE vans has examples of both - definitely white and also ones that might be body colour or black...

Chas

Just had a check.

In the Tatlow LNER/NER Volume.

There four Black & White  photos of the NER "V" Brake van, three  in LNER days and one at Beamish being restored , no idea of date post 1970's at a guess. The only one with Black handrails is the Beamish one. The other three are in LNER early period, the  photos all handrails appear to be in body colour (no variation in shade). None are White.

Ian Sadler book NER Brake Vans book.

Again nothing obvious, there are a lot more Black & White photos of all the V series vans, all including them in LNER days appear to be body colour.

 

Bank's site is normally ok , but he does'nt cover the NER area normally , and he is not always correct.

 

  Mine can stay as it is !!.

 

cheers

 

Mick

Edited August 7, 2022 by micklner

[Chas Levin]

Thanks Mick - I don't think there was any doubt that yours can stay as it is! It's a very nice looking model - did you pick out the door catch in black or is that just a shadow?

What did you find awkward in the build? I found the footstep assemblies very difficult to separate intact from the sprues and I was sure their flimsiness would result in breakage after installation, but you can tack them to various points on the underframe and they're actually fairly robust now. I didn't bother with the brass strengtheners behind the supports that I'd planned - did you do anything like that on yours?

Clearly body-colour rails are prototypical, but there seems to be a view that some had black rails too, going by that Beamish one and various models you can see online. I wonder where that information comes from then?

I have to admit I like the look of the rails in black - it adds some colour variation.

Is the possibility that some were black, aesthetic preference and Modellers' Rule One sufficient justification to leave them that way? 😉

[micklner]

The model is a minimum of 10 years or more old. All I can remember is the Handrails (never again) . Yes Lock picked out in Black no idea if correct. Steps are the  original plastic and are quite strong . Mine needs a Brake shoe at mo !!.

Modellers Licence covers anything !! Your choice.

No idea re any other information, I presume by early 1920's they were not used on many if any Mainline Trains ?. Some may have been in NER livery for years after the grouping in Branch Lines?.

 

I have never seen a photo of one actually in use, in a running train.

[Chas Levin]

28 minutes ago, micklner said:

The model is a minimum of 10 years or more old. All I can remember is the Handrails (never again) . Yes Lock picked out in Black no idea if correct. Steps are the  original plastic and are quite strong . Mine needs a Brake shoe at mo !!.

Modellers Licence covers anything !! Your choice.

No idea re any other information, I presume by early 1920's they were not used on many if any Mainline Trains ?. Some may have been in NER livery for years after the grouping in Branch Lines?.

 

I have never seen a photo of one actually in use, in a running train.

Yes, the handrails were a little fiddly! I did all the horizontal ones on the van ends and the verticals on the sides first, with enough length to poke through inside where I could cyano them securely. Then I soldered the horizontals on the sides, with a piece of card between the rails and the plastic side and the briefest possible touch with a very hot iron. Then I had to spend quite a while adjusting the horizontals to be not only level but at matching heights on each side! That's one of the great things about soldering though, as opposed to glueing, that you can melt the solder sufficiently to move something without actually detaching it and without affecting the ultimate strength of the bond: brilliant stuff!

 

I've not seen any photos of them actually running in traffic either, though I've seen some of them standing in goods yards (aside from the ones in Tatlow I mean) so perhaps they were more in use for goods traffic by LNER days?

[micklner]

Looking at the Sadler book again none survived after approx 1930. Some sold off to industrial/military users. No idea where I got the number on mine,it will be renumbered.

 

I wonder why I prefer Brass over Plastic models .😃

[2750Papyrus]

It's taken me 30 years to assemble my Slaters brake van because of the perceived need to solder the handrails!  However, I have recently assembled white metal kits of GC and GN brake vans and found I could use superglue where there are joints instead of soldering, so I have adopted the same approach for the NE van.  The long horizontal runs were supported  in handrail knobs at their midpoints.

 

It's still not finished, though, as I decided to fit working lights (including the white/red side lamps), and I'm struggling to stop light bleed under the roof whilst still making it removable.

[2750Papyrus]

3 minutes ago, micklner said:

Looking at the Sadler book again none survived after approx 1930. Some sold off to industrial/military users. No idea where I got the number on mine,it will be renumbered.

 

I wonder why I prefer Brass over Plastic models .😃

I wish you hadn't checked that date!

 

 

[Chas Levin]

2 hours ago, 2750Papyrus said:

It's taken me 30 years to assemble my Slaters brake van because of the perceived need to solder the handrails!  However, I have recently assembled white metal kits of GC and GN brake vans and found I could use superglue where there are joints instead of soldering, so I have adopted the same approach for the NE van.  The long horizontal runs were supported  in handrail knobs at their midpoints.

 

It's still not finished, though, as I decided to fit working lights (including the white/red side lamps), and I'm struggling to stop light bleed under the roof whilst still making it removable.

Hello, for the central supports of the long horizontal runs, I looked at lots of photos and decided it didn't look as if they were actually handrail knobs - I think that would bow out the rails too much (as I had done on an NER 12T covered van's end rails and I think it was Mick who pointed it out). Instead, I ran a length of the handrail wire right through the van body so that it's supported each side where it goes through the wall. I trimmed it off about 0.5mm outside the wall and soldered it to the midpoint of each handrail run. Leaving it as a continuous run through the van body keeps the outside horizontal runs in place. I reckon you could do that too, by superglueing it to the centre point of each handrail: the fixings at each end of the run should prevent movement.

I hope that explanation is clear - I can only find one photo showing the wire runs inside the body:

 

 

The square horizontal 'pillars' are to prevent the sides bowing with age: they were later painted matt black with the inside walls in cream - you can just see the cream through the windows if the light's in the right place.

 

Nice to fit working lights inside and out; I did consider doing that, but this van was intended as a quick build (in the sense of the actual hours spent on it, not in terms of a span between start and finish dates, though I can't quite match your 30 years!) so I stopped at the one working red light. How are you powering your lighting - track or Train-Tech coin cell? And if you're using track, how did you do the pickups? I find adding pickups that have sufficient contact to power reliably to unpowered vehicles causes uncomfortably high drag.

I wonder whether those ones that are like a long thin spring wound round the axle might be worth trying - you see them on continental HO coaches sometimes?

Edited August 7, 2022 by Chas Levin

[2750Papyrus]

Train-Tech, probably a bit OTT but it seemed a good idea at the time.

 

Can't remember who the red/white side lights came from, they were the last two in stock.  I believe that DCC Concepts have made such lamps but they also are out of stock.

 

I'm surprised the RTR guys haven't produced models with working lights, especially with the availability of DCC control.  I still own a Trix brake van made 65 years ago with working lights, powered by their then-standard pick-up shoes.  Flicker guaranteed!