East Barnet Joint Stock - a workbench

[Chas Levin]

2 hours ago, jwealleans said:

 

Both.   I will look hard at making/using a different roof when I make my next one.   Weight is the main reason, it being easier to replace floor and roof than the sides.    Having the join in the middle was a PITA, but not a massive one.   Where you will find a benefit is having something straight to use to try to wrestle the sides into something like the shape they're meant to be.   My recollection of mine is that the sides were all over the place and the body took a lot of persuading to get anywhere near the right shape.

 

I haven't looked in any detail, but off the top of my head it's a fairly plain roof but with the chimney cutout and the coaling hatch.   I'd look at a Kirk roof first.  If that's nowhere near, you might be able to use the ends of the NuCast one and the Kirk or an MJT or Comet centre section (or even something completely different) if the profiles are not too far away.

Thanks Jonathan, all duly noted 🤔...

 

I had already thought that the sides might be an interesting challenge to shape properly. You'd think it should be a fairly simple proposition - it's just a box on wheels after all - but it does have it's little idiosyncrasies, doesn' it? Gorgeous vehicles though...

Edited June 23, 2022 by Chas Levin

[Jon4470]

Hi Chas

 

For the power bogie the wheelbase is 28mm - and I don’t think there are any of this wheelbase commercially available anymore - with a very powerful motor that is. So my plan is to scratch build one.

The power bogie and motor that I had in the kit will hardly move itself, let alone the whole railcar.
 

Researching the lining for these vehicles could be interesting! I’ve quickly looked at a number of sources this evening ……and I think I’ll be able to spend quite some more time studying further. 
 

I looked at Yeadons, RCTS vol10, Haresnape and British Railcars by Jenkinson and Lane. Nowhere could I see confirmation of the style and colour of the lining. Then I remembered Big Four in Colour. There  is a photo of Eagle with a caption that says ”the cream panels were lined with a fine double green line”.
Photos in the other sources show this double lining on the front panels and the also on the larger panels on the sides. There’s a very clear front view of Nettle showing this lining. You’ll love this ……the corners are just like the ones on your lovely loco🙂 (I.e. internal quadrants)

 

So far, it has been difficult to make out the lining that Mike’s post shows. So, I’m not sure if that lining was applied as well as the panel lining, or instead of. And, of course, some photos look like there is no lining at all!

 

I also wonder if there is a black line between the green and cream…but that might be a shadow.

 

Hope this helps and as I say plenty of studying to do.

 

Jon

[MikeTrice]

The lining shows up quite well in photos in Nick Camplings "Historic Carriage Drawings: Volume One LNER and Constituents" but he does not mention colour.

[Chas Levin]

Thanks Jon and Mike; I have some but not all of those, plus some others that might contain info - I'll start having a look over the weekend.

It seems odd that it's not more fully documented, and that there are so many photos where no lining appears to be present (allowing for poor resolution, colour registration and so forth).

 

Is it perhaps possible that railcar lining and livery weren't as prescripted and rigidly adhered to as loco and coach livery and that some railcars were lined, some not?

 

Funny how things change: previous to the C2 I'd have been looking for a reason to avoid lining; now, I'm looking for one to justify including it - and the more the merrier!

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, Jon4470 said:

Hi Chas

 

For the power bogie the wheelbase is 28mm - and I don’t think there are any of this wheelbase commercially available anymore - with a very powerful motor that is. So my plan is to scratch build one.

The power bogie and motor that I had in the kit will hardly move itself, let alone the whole railcar.

Also Jon, did you see that Jonathan W is thinking of using one of the High Level Kits kit-built bogies for his next Sentinel? I had been looking at those for another project but I think he has a great idea there.

I'll get the Nu-Cast box and all the bits out at the weekend too and check which ones I do actually have though, before looking seriously at other solutions.

[Jon4470]

On 23/06/2022 at 21:58, Chas Levin said:

Also Jon, did you see that Jonathan W is thinking of using one of the High Level Kits kit-built bogies for his next Sentinel? I had been looking at those for another project but I think he has a great idea there.

I'll get the Nu-Cast box and all the bits out at the weekend too and check which ones I do actually have though, before looking seriously at other solutions.

Hi Chas

 

It is a while since I looked in detail at the power bogie options.

 

I think that there are kits available from High Level and also Branchlines. I would be very happy to use any of these but I don’t think that they are available with 28mm wheelbase though. It maybe possible to modify the existing kits - and, of course, the kits will have lots of bits that are needed anyway whatever the wheelbase. I haven’t really looked in detail at the options - or spoken to either of this suppliers yet. My main aim will be to fit a very large motor though…. I’ve already built the kit with the white metal chassis and roof😬….built in the days when I just followed instructions!

 

Jon

[Chas Levin]

Hello Jon, looks like you're right that High Level's bogies aren't 28mm but modification may well be possible.

 

On the Sentinel lettering front, some good news. I'd completely forgotten that a while ago, I too bought some 3mm versions of the HMRS sheets and they do include the railcar lettering - @jwealleans, thank you again for mentioning this, as it's very likely I wouldn't have noticed that the standard 4mm ones are too large until I'd finished the model and someone on here pointed it out!

This just shows how easy it is to buy things, put them away and forget about them. It was when I was building a D&S GNR Milke Brake and found that the HMRS 4mm 'Guard' wouldn't fit the door panel; like you Jonathan, I was very kindly helped by Lner Mick, who sent me a pair of the word 'Guard' cut from his 3mm sheet. After finishing that coach, I decided to stock up for future builds - @micklner, if you're reading this and find you're running low on the word 'Guard' (or any other transfers on those sheets) in 3mm, please let me know and I can return the favour! 👋

 

On the C2 front, I ran into a slight poblem with the workplates. I'd bought a pair of GNR Doncaster 1899 ones from Fox Transfers a while ago for use on this build, but didn't realise until I came to use them that at 2.2mm they're too high:

 

 

The prototype plates are almost the full height of the above-footplate frame pieces, as shown in these two photos:

 

 

 

I do have the plates supplied with the kit, but believe it or not, at 1.6mm they're ever so slightly too small:

 

 

Also, with apologies to LRM and no disrespect intended, I don't think they look as good as the Fox ones (allowing for the fact that the fox ones have the black paint on them already and these LRM ones don't) - the Fox ones do look superb, with amazingly well defined lettering, given the scale.

 

I've email Fox to ask whether they might be able to produce their plates in 3mm scale and I've started having a look at other manufacturers' ranges - does anyone know of others who do 4mm workplates that might be worth trying?

[Chas Levin]

On 23/06/2022 at 20:39, MikeTrice said:

The lining shows up quite well in photos in Nick Camplings "Historic Carriage Drawings: Volume One LNER and Constituents" but he does not mention colour.

Just looking at this now Mike - I take it you meant the Clayton Railcar photos?

I agree the lining shows up very well, but in fact it really does look like there's either a second inner line - possibly of another colour - or some sort of stepped panelling - as Jon has also suggested:

On 23/06/2022 at 20:12, Jon4470 said:

I also wonder if there is a black line between the green and cream…but that might be a shadow.

 

Jon

It's very noticeable in the two photos of Trailer Car 2165 on page 58, particularly the three large end panels on the vehicle end facing the camera and the small toplight-shaped horizontal rectangular panels above the doors ('Entrance' and 'Luggage only') in the side view of the car.

Looking at these and then looking again at the cropped photo of 273 you posted on Thursday, I think it looks quite like there was a stepped inner section and the lining was along the side wall of the step...? 🤔

Edited June 27, 2022 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

And looking at Brian Haresnape's 'Railway Liveries 1923-47' (another thing I'd forgotten I had!), on page 188 is a fascinating picture of Sentinel no 22 in "the original livery of imitation varnished teak, with full lining and standard carriage style lettering" - now there's an interesting idea...!

 

Also interested to read in the caption to the next photo of Clayton 296 Wonder about it being shown as delivered to traffic in "the second livery of bright scarlet/vermilion red and cream". What's interesting is that he then notes that "very fine black and gilt lining [my italics] was applied to the cream, to simulate a panelled effect" - this must be what i've been puzzling over in later photos? A "panelled effect" is of course a much better way to describe what I called a "stepped inner section" and this is I think what I was puzzled by in the photos in the Campling book of Trailer 2165 in my previous post.

 

The caption to the next photo on page 55 notes that "Gresley finally settled on a grass green and cream livery"; I must admit I hadn't realised there were earlier versions.

 

Jon, I also found the photo you referred to in 'Big Four in Colour' of Eagle (lovely photo!) which notes the lining being a fine double green line. And I see the incurved corners too: no problem, just a case of finding a suitable diameter washer or something similar to use as a guide. Time consuming, but definitely achievable.

 

Presumably then they changed the lining colours from black & gilt (for the red & cream livery) to double green (for the green & cream livery) - which would certainly explain why the lining's so difficult to see in photos!

 

As to the spacing of the lining, I doubt we'll find a painting diagram but in any case, I think this will come down to what's actually practical with the ruling pen in 4mm...

Edited June 27, 2022 by Chas Levin

[Rob Pulham]

This is really very useful Chas, I haven't yet got my hands on a 7mm Sentinel railcar but I do have a Clayton complete with trailer. I just need to remember all this research when I get to building it. The good news is that I have all the books mentioned so that's a good start.

[Bucoops]

5 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Hello Jon, looks like you're right that High Level's bogies aren't 28mm but modification may well be possible.

 

On the Sentinel lettering front, some good news. I'd completely forgotten that a while ago, I too bought some 3mm versions of the HMRS sheets and they do include the railcar lettering - @jwealleans, thank you again for mentioning this, as it's very likely I wouldn't have noticed that the standard 4mm ones are too large until I'd finished the model and someone on here pointed it out!

This just shows how easy it is to buy things, put them away and forget about them. It was when I was building a D&S GNR Milke Brake and found that the HMRS 4mm 'Guard' wouldn't fit the door panel; like you Jonathan, I was very kindly helped by Lner Mick, who sent me a pair of the word 'Guard' cut from his 3mm sheet. After finishing that coach, I decided to stock up for future builds - @micklner, if you're reading this and find you're running low on the word 'Guard' (or any other transfers on those sheets) in 3mm, please let me know and I can return the favour! 👋

 

On the C2 front, I ran into a slight poblem with the workplates. I'd bought a pair of GNR Doncaster 1899 ones from Fox Transfers a while ago for use on this build, but didn't realise until I came to use them that at 2.2mm they're too high:

 

 

The prototype plates are almost the full height of the above-footplate frame pieces, as shown in these two photos:

 

 

 

I do have the plates supplied with the kit, but believe it or not, at 1.6mm they're ever so slightly too small:

 

 

Also, with apologies to LRM and no disrespect intended, I don't think they look as good as the Fox ones (allowing for the fact that the fox ones have the black paint on them already and these LRM ones don't) - the Fox ones do look superb, with amazingly well defined lettering, given the scale.

 

I've email Fox to ask whether they might be able to produce their plates in 3mm scale and I've started having a look at other manufacturers' ranges - does anyone know of others who do 4mm workplates that might be worth trying?

 

Modelmaster do worksplates (see the thread in Smaller suppliers forum however) and I believe 247 Developments do too, 

 

Just had a quick look at the bargain LRM N1 I got from ebay as it has several sets of plates but they are nearly 4mm high...

[micklner]

I use these bottom right of photo, they are meant for wagons about 2mm high with some script theron. Very useful and cheap.

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/wagons/mt166/

 

I will keep you in mind for decals if needed !!. 

 

I have a Bullant powered Sentinel sans lining I built,  if you need any photos.

 

Mick

 

 

 

[Chas Levin]

2 hours ago, Rob Pulham said:

This is really very useful Chas, I haven't yet got my hands on a 7mm Sentinel railcar but I do have a Clayton complete with trailer. I just need to remember all this research when I get to building it. The good news is that I have all the books mentioned so that's a good start.

Excellent - very pleased it's of use to you too Rob.

 

What's the lining like on your Clayton - or do you mean you have it in unbuilt form?

 

Keeping track of this sort of info as it accumulates is something I've tried to be careful about in various areas of work, otherwise you can't find things when you need them. The method I use is to start a Word document with a sensible title (in this case, 'Sentinel build 20220625' would do, dates in that format stay in the right order in folders) and I add new info to the document, changing the date in the title each time, so that as I back it up onto multiple different drives - another habit born of losing data - I know which is the most recent version.

I also sometimes do this in the form of an email which I send to myself, re-sending with new information added and the subject line takes the place of the word document's name, with the date being amended each time it's re-sent.

 

Apologies if I'm teaching any grandmothers to suck eggs with this!

[Chas Levin]

32 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

 

Modelmaster do worksplates (see the thread in Smaller suppliers forum however) and I believe 247 Developments do too, 

 

Just had a quick look at the bargain LRM N1 I got from ebay as it has several sets of plates but they are nearly 4mm high...

Thanks Rich - they're both on my list, though I already had a quick look at 247 and it didn't look like they did anything suitable... 4mm is quite a height for plates: I have others from Fox that are about 2.5mm and they look huge!

[Chas Levin]

10 minutes ago, micklner said:

I use these bottom right of photo, they are meant for wagons about 2mm high with some script theron. Very useful and cheap.

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/wagons/mt166/

 

I will keep you in mind for decals if needed !!. 

 

I have a Bullant powered Sentinel sans lining I built,  if you need any photos.

 

Mick

Thanks Mick, I'll order a couple of those frets as they're bound to come in handy anyway.

 

Decals are yours for the asking; and thank you for the offer of Sentinel photos, I will ask you if there's anything I get stuck on!

[Jon4470]

1 hour ago, Chas Levin said:

Thanks Rich - they're both on my list, though I already had a quick look at 247 and it didn't look like they did anything suitable... 4mm is quite a height for plates: I have others from Fox that are about 2.5mm and they look huge!

Chas

 

You could look at this site

https://www.lightrailwaystores.co.uk/collections/works-plate-styles?page=3

 

This used to be called Narrow Planet I think. I used them for name plates for Spencer.

 

Jon

[Rob Pulham]

I have already replied once but lost it when I my broadband dropped out.

 

Putting it all in  aa word document in a labelled folder is my usual way of storing such info and backups are second nature after working in IT support for 20 years.

 

The Clayton is unbuilt or actually the motor bogie is built and was so when I bought it. but the body including the trailer are untouched. What I can't recall is whether the motion has been assembled or not. I will have to look.

 

I bought it from a very good builder and fellow Gauge O Guild member who is based in Germany so I was confident that the motor bogie would be fine. 

Indeed I broke off typing to have a look and both bogies are assembled and the motor bogie ran straight out of the box after sitting there for four or five years since I bought it.

[Jon4470]

21 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

And looking at Brian Haresnape's 'Railway Liveries 1923-47' (another thing I'd forgotten I had!), on page 188 is a fascinating picture of Sentinel no 22 in "the original livery of imitation varnished teak, with full lining and standard carriage style lettering" - now there's an interesting idea...!

 

Also interested to read in the caption to the next photo of Clayton 296 Wonder about it being shown as delivered to traffic in "the second livery of bright scarlet/vermilion red and cream". What's interesting is that he then notes that "very fine black and gilt lining [my italics] was applied to the cream, to simulate a panelled effect" - this must be what i've been puzzling over in later photos? A "panelled effect" is of course a much better way to describe what I called a "stepped inner section" and this is I think what I was puzzled by in the photos in the Campling book of Trailer 2165 in my previous post.

 

The caption to the next photo on page 55 notes that "Gresley finally settled on a grass green and cream livery"; I must admit I hadn't realised there were earlier versions.

 

Jon, I also found the photo you referred to in 'Big Four in Colour' of Eagle (loverly photo!) which notes the lining being a fine double green line. And I see the incurved corners too: no problem, just a case of finding a suitable diameter washer or something similar to use as a guide. Time consuming, but definitely achievable.

 

Presumably then they changed the lining colours from black & gilt (for the red & cream livery) to double green (for the green & cream livery) - which would certainly explain why the lining's so difficult to see in photos!

 

As to the spacing of the lining, I doubt we'll find a painting diagram but in any case, I think this will come down to what's actually practical with the ruling pen in 4mm...

I’ve been looking though the photos in the various source books and, from what I can see, the arrow head lining was applied to the upper beading whenever that coincided with vertical beading on the lower panels. This included the beading adjacent to the doors. The arrow head lining was applied as well as the panel lining - and this shows up well in Mike’s earlier post.

 

I’d forgotten how many varieties of railcar were produced for the LNER! As far as I can tell the NuCast kit is for a Diagram 97 railcar……so I think Green/cream or wartime brown are the available livery options.

 

Jon

[micklner]

I believe the Nu Cast version is a Dia 96?.

 

History here

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/Railcar/sentinel.php

[Chas Levin]

15 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

Chas

 

You could look at this site

https://www.lightrailwaystores.co.uk/collections/works-plate-styles?page=3

 

This used to be called Narrow Planet I think. I used them for name plates for Spencer.

 

Jon

Thanks Jon, hadn't come across them before. The site's interesting in that it allows choice of customised plate with number, year and so forthof your choosing, but it only offers 4mm; I'll messagenthem though, to ask if they can do smaller...

[Chas Levin]

21 minutes ago, micklner said:

I believe the Nu Cast version is a Dia 96?.

 

History here

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/Railcar/sentinel.php

Thanks Mick, should have thought of looking on LNER Info, though there still doesn't seem to be any info there on liveries...

[Chas Levin]

4 hours ago, Rob Pulham said:

I have already replied once but lost it when I my broadband dropped out.

 

Putting it all in  aa word document in a labelled folder is my usual way of storing such info and backups are second nature after working in IT support for 20 years.

 

The Clayton is unbuilt or actually the motor bogie is built and was so when I bought it. but the body including the trailer are untouched. What I can't recall is whether the motion has been assembled or not. I will have to look.

 

I bought it from a very good builder and fellow Gauge O Guild member who is based in Germany so I was confident that the motor bogie would be fine. 

Indeed I broke off typing to have a look and both bogies are assembled and the motor bogie ran straight out of the box after sitting there for four or five years since I bought it.

Good old hi-tech latest gizmo broadband!!

 

I work with pro audio, but these days that's almost a subset of IT, so that's informed my data storage habits too... Clearly we have similar ideas about data management then!

 

I thought I'd better take a look at the bogies that I had too - oddly, there are three! There's a Black Beetle box with two in (surely not their usual?) and a Tenshodo one too:

 

 

Unfortunately I bought this kit - with included bogies - sufficiently long ago that I can' recall for sure what came with it and what I may have added later, but I'm fairly sure the double Beetle set was included.

 

However, armed with Jonathan W's caution, I'll have to investigate further. No matter if these don't get used on this project, they'll get used on something else.

 

Sounds like you're all set there thought Rob - always a good sign when things run straight out of storage!

Edited June 26, 2022 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, Jon4470 said:

I’ve been looking though the photos in the various source books and, from what I can see, the arrow head lining was applied to the upper beading whenever that coincided with vertical beading on the lower panels. This included the beading adjacent to the doors. The arrow head lining was applied as well as the panel lining - and this shows up well in Mike’s earlier post.

 

I’d forgotten how many varieties of railcar were produced for the LNER! As far as I can tell the NuCast kit is for a Diagram 97 railcar……so I think Green/cream or wartime brown are the available livery options.

 

Jon

Very interesting, your observations about where the arrowhead lining was applied: it might be worth drawing a plan, based o the Nu-Cast layout, showing where the lining should be applied - a modern version of a Painting Diagram, in fact.

 

As to livery choice yes, I'd assumed this railcar version would be too late for earlier schemes such as teak but in any case, with plenty of teak coaches and no LNER Tourist stock I'm looking forward to seeing the green & cream...

[MikeTrice]

First off it might benefit to break these livery discussions into a separate topic as they might be lost within this one.

 

I found I had more images of Railcars than I thought. Going through them I can really only make out a single panel line not two as quoted. However enlarging the Nick Campling images, even though they are screened for publication a second fainter inner line can be made out. So this raises the question whether the line was thinner or a different colour.

 

Just noticed Yeadon Vol 12 page 63 shows the double lining quite well.

Edited June 26, 2022 by MikeTrice

[micklner]

2 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Thanks Mick, should have thought of looking on LNER Info, though there still doesn't seem to be any info there on liveries...

Green and Cream , Plain Brown during the war if any lasted that long. Info in Campling book.