East Barnet Joint Stock - a workbench

[Chas Levin]

4 hours ago, manna said:

G'Day Chas

 

Yes all the seating is plastic, looks OK through the window

 

 The seats lock into a curved block on the floor, probably only move 25/30 degrees from vertical, so look a bit upright.

 

I have two other pics in the inside of a Sentinel railcar, one is looking through the cab, the other shows the drive under the floor in the brake van area and part of the passenger compartment seating.

 

manna

G'Day Terry,

 

Thank you very much for posting these photos! They answer several questions about the interior colour schemes: the view through the driving compartment shows that the 'finished and polished wood' walls described in the LNER magazine were clearly a fairly dark colour and it also confirms what the pro model build Miles Glenn said, that he had picked up somewhere that a mahogany sort of shade was correct, though he couldn't remember where he'd heard it.

As well as that, the white roof is clearly visible and the detail of the passenger seating is superb: the shape and angle of the frames and of the cushioning, the similarity of the frames' colour to the colour of the walls, the much lighter shade of the cushion fabric: may I ask, where do the photos come from? I'm guessing  acontemporary magazine from the caption but it's not the LNER one.

Also delighted to see a photo of your complete railcar - I'm assuming it's the same build as in the previous photos you posted of the unpainted body and the seating? It looks superb and I'd never have guessed what provided the body! How do you power it and how does it run - I don't think you said?

[manna]

Hi Chas

 

The Sentinel is powered by 'Don't laugh'..............a Lima HST power bogie, it runs very well, I often get it to tow a fish wagon or two, it's great fun running it around it's train and shunting it in to the goods yard.

 

I found the the pics of the Sentinel on the internet, I just kept opening windows until I found them, think it was something to do with North Eastern branch lines. There's a build for it on my LNER Encyclopedia, thread, page 26 onwards.

 

manna

[Chas Levin]

59 minutes ago, manna said:

Hi Chas

 

The Sentinel is powered by 'Don't laugh'..............a Lima HST power bogie, it runs very well, I often get it to tow a fish wagon or two, it's great fun running it around it's train and shunting it in to the goods yard.

 

I found the the pics of the Sentinel on the internet, I just kept opening windows until I found them, think it was something to do with North Eastern branch lines. There's a build for it on my LNER Encyclopedia, thread, page 26 onwards.

 

manna

No cause for laughter Terry - if it runs well, that's what counts and what's under the hood stays under the hood.

Nice work finding those pics online - clearly there's more out there to find, which is the internet all over, isn't it?

I'll check your LNER Info thread for the build, I must have read it way back when but probably before I added building one to my own list so it didn't stick in my memory properly...

[Jon4470]

10 hours ago, manna said:

Hi Chas

 

The Sentinel is powered by 'Don't laugh'..............a Lima HST power bogie, it runs very well, I often get it to tow a fish wagon or two, it's great fun running it around it's train and shunting it in to the goods yard.

 

I found the the pics of the Sentinel on the internet, I just kept opening windows until I found them, think it was something to do with North Eastern branch lines. There's a build for it on my LNER Encyclopedia, thread, page 26 onwards.

 

manna

Looks like I might have to venture into the loft and find my old HST🙂

 

Jon

[Jon4470]

9 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

No cause for laughter Terry - if it runs well, that's what counts and what's under the hood stays under the hood.

Nice work finding those pics online - clearly there's more out there to find, which is the internet all over, isn't it?

I'll check your LNER Info thread for the build, I must have read it way back when but probably before I added building one to my own list so it didn't stick in my memory properly...

 

Something in the back of my mind seems to recall that Arthur Kimber posted an interior photo of one of the rail cars……..

 

I’m not 100% sure….and , of course, I haven’t filed the reference anywhere😕

 

Jon

[Chas Levin]

2 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

 

Something in the back of my mind seems to recall that Arthur Kimber posted an interior photo of one of the rail cars……..

 

I’m not 100% sure….and , of course, I haven’t filed the reference anywhere😕

 

Jon

He built one Jon, and posted pictures of his build which I saw quite recently... but like you, I'm not entirely sure where, or whether there were also prototype photos: I'll have a look around. 🤔

 

Update, after some searching: all I've found so far are Arthur's posts on page 3 of Jonathan Weallean's "West End Workbench" RMWeb thread, showing photos of his own scratchbuilt Sentinel 'Royal Charlotte' by way of encouragement, while Jonathan was starting his own Nu-Cast Sentinel build, in early May 2010. No prototype photos though. I think these were the posts I'd found recently and that I was remembering, so you must have seen something else Jon... 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Jon4470]

This link shows a photo of the interior of a Sentinel railcar. I think that this is a New Zealand based railcar. The seat fabric looks different to the UK. The seat mechanism, though, could be similar to UK

 

https://digitalnz.org/records/22721693

[Chas Levin]

26 minutes ago, Jon4470 said:

This link shows a photo of the interior of a Sentinel railcar. I think that this is a New Zealand based railcar. The seat fabric looks different to the UK. The seat mechanism, though, could be similar to UK

 

https://digitalnz.org/records/22721693

Very nice find, thanks for posting Jon, wonderfully clear reproduction.

I think you're right about the seat fabric being different - it looks there like it might be leather - or some type of similar material - as you can see a slight shine in one of two places. It also looks to be a shade far more similar to the woodwork than on manna's photo where it's surely a lot lighter than the seat frames, doesn't it?

Nice detailed view of the seat frames too, and of the curtains.

Not sure what to make of the end wall though - it doesn't look to me like either the driving end partition with the three windows, or the brake end one with only the central window - looks like it's curtained or screened off in some way?

 

Edited to add: I just looked to see what else is on that site and there are another couple of photos by the same chap around the same date of what I take to be the same car, which looks similar to our UK Sentinel types but clearly somewhat different and is recorded by him as being "Sentinel-Cammell. Steam rail car. Used on Frankton-Thames night service" and also as "R.M.1, i.e. Rail motor no 1".

So I'd suggest that the differing seat fabric is only to be expected but that their frame detail and layout as seen in the picture of the interior could be used in modelling the UK cars' interiors...

Edited March 6, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Jon4470]

Hi Chas 

 

Just sent a PM.

 

There is an official LNER interior shot on page 51 of British Railcars by Jenkinson and Lane.

 

The interior is described as “…..mahogany interior finish…….walk over seats ……having ‘standard LNER pattern’ material”

 

Jon

[Jon4470]

The RCTS “green” book also has the same interior photo. Described as being a shot of railcar “Nettle”

[Chas Levin]

10 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

Hi Chas 

 

Just sent a PM.

 

There is an official LNER interior shot on page 51 of British Railcars by Jenkinson and Lane.

 

The interior is described as “…..mahogany interior finish…….walk over seats ……having ‘standard LNER pattern’ material”

 

Jon

 

1 hour ago, Jon4470 said:

The RCTS “green” book also has the same interior photo. Described as being a shot of railcar “Nettle”

PM received with thanks and replied to, another fascinating photo and a book worth adding to my library I think.

As to the RCTS book: I went with Yeadon for this build, guess I missed a trick there! Thanks Jon 🙂.

 

It looks like Miles Glenn's interior colour scheme was pretty spot on; he mentioned having read somewhere of mahogany walls and stone or fawn coloured seats, so one of those two books must have been what he saw: he couldn't remember as it was quite a long time ago.

[Chas Levin]

Further to the recent posts about extruded aluminium roofs, I received a couple of the Comet C10 Elliptical Carriage Roof (the one Wizard describes as a compromise between BR/Bulleid and LMS/GWR/LNER arcs) and I can confirm that it's a very slightly different profile to the MJT 2970 Aluminium roof (which Dart describe as being BR Mk1). I realise that given those two descriptions, no-one should be surprised to learn that they're different, or that the difference is... about 0.5mm! There are other slight differences too, in the size and placing of the gutter/cantrail - here's a series of photos comparing the two:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

With the MJT Gresley Elliptical (2879 / 2791S) and the Comet LNWR 57' Carraige Cove (LNWC047), that means there are four different extruded aluminium profiles currently available between Wizard Models and Dart Castings.

 

Does anyone know of any others?

[micklner]

Photos confirmed mine are Comet versions !! Thanks.

[Chas Levin]

14 minutes ago, micklner said:

Photos confirmed mine are Comet versions !! Thanks.

My pleasure Mick, happy to help! I've marked the ones I've removed from the labelled bags on the underside with a marker pen to guard against confusion later.

[Chas Levin]

Finally some actual construction on the Sentinel. A small start, but a satisfying one, making a brass replacement for the whitemetal chimney, seen here next to a piece of 4.5mm diameter brass tube:

 

 

The plan is to replicate the collar and rim using brass wire and copper strip:

 

 

First job was to drill a 0.45mm hole half a mm from the top of the brass tube - although the photo above shows 0.5mm wire, in the end I used 0.45mm:

 

 

That provided an anchor point for the 0.45mm brass wire, soldered in place using 188 degree solder (for strength and to allow further soldering later) and then wound gradually round the rim, keeping it parallel with the rim and soldering as it was wound:

 

 

Then a piece of the copper strip was put in place in the same way, immediately beneath the wire. Without a hole or slot to anchor the start of the strip, I had to resort to holding it in place with ceramic tipped tweezers which didn't produce quite as neat a job but looked like it would clean up reasonably well:

 

 

And here's the result after some cleaning up, done by inserting the other end of the tube into a cordless drill and rotating it slowly and carefully against successively finer abrasives:

 

 

 

I'll leave the tube long for now, until I know how it'll be fixed in place. I also plan to make a boiler and flue to go under it, in which case joining chimney and flue seems the obvious thing to do. At this point I'm intending sides, ends and roof to be one unit, detachable from the floor and chassis assembly, so a complete boiler, flue and chimney construction ought to be possible, with the boiler sitting on a false floor. I haven't yet checked how this was arranged on the prototype but as the boiler's shown pretty much directly below the chimney...

Edited March 8, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

Further small replacements of whitemetal with brass, these are the single steps that sit above those hanging down below the four doorways on each side. Above are the whitemetal ones supplied with the kit (and not, as some might think, a tiny set of golf clubs!) and below, their replacements, culled from other kit leftovers and MJT LNER bogie step frets:

 

 

Missing brackets will be added when those steps lacking them are installed - they were made by chopping longer ones in half!

 

Meanwhile, I'd been finding, while leafing through Yeadon, that I constantly wanted to check when looking at a photo of a particular railcar which diagram it was - there's no point studying a detail in a photo only to discover that it wasn't done that way on the Diagram 96/7 that I'm building - and it's quite long-winded looking up which 'cars were which diagram without an alphabetical list of the 'car names built to those two diagrams... so below is a list I ran up in Excel: no idea if it's of any use to anyone else, but just in case...

 

LNER Sentinel-Cammell Railcar Diagram 96 (18 vehicles built, alphabetically by name, running number also shown):

 

Cleveland 2133

Clydesdale 37

Commerce 45, 43301

Courrier 2152

Eagle 2140

Expedition 51908

Fair Maid 32

Flower Of Yarrow 31

Hark Forward 2139

Highland Chieftan 33,71

Hope 2136

Royal Eagle 36

Ruby 2145

Traveller 2144

Tweedside 34

Umpire 2151

Waterloo 51909

Woodpecker 2147

 

LNER Sentinel-Cammell Railcar Diagram 97 (30 vehicles built, alphabetically by name, running number also shown):

 

Alexander 2232

Banks of Don 313

Britannia 2235

British Queen 2236

Celerity 2238

Cornwallis 2242

Criterion 2245

Defiance 2257

Diligence 2261

Emerald 2268

Independent 2270

Industry 2271

New Fly 2219

Norfolk 2279

North Briton 2276, 31070

Pearl 38

Prince Regent 310

Protector 39

Queen Of Beauty 314

Quicksilver 311, 31073

Recovery 2267

Retaliator 312

Rising Sun 51912

Rival 51913

Royal Charlotte 2217

Royal Forester 51914

Surprise 2200

Swift 2231

Telegraph 2218

Times 2198

[Chas Levin]

The main steps will have to wait while I source some 1mm and 2mm strip - I intend following @34016's excellent tutorial on making them up as sets. I was surprised I hadn't got something as useful as that in stock and hadn't felt the need of it before...

 

The inside partitions and seating will have to wait longer than that, as they'll both have to be made to fit the body, so that the partitions fit under the eventual choice of roof, while the seats need to be of such a height as to allow the top few (scale) inches to be visible through the windows at (scale) eye height, something I won't be able to assess until the build is fairly advanced.

 

Looking in the meantime at things I can work on, there are the body pillar bases. If you read that and thought "Huh?" don't worry: so did I?

Here's a crop from a nice clear photo with one of them circled:

 

 

Now they look to me like pieces of iron or steel angle, riveted to the solebar and with the angled part providing support.

 

Here's a photo of the white-metal pieces - 14 of them - provided as part of the kit, part number 39 and I think brass will look much better:

 

 

I have a vague memory of installing something similar on at least one coach build but I cannot spot whatever I'm remembering on any model in the house! I emailed the always helpful and knowledgeable John Redrup at London Road Models who said he doesn't have anything like that on any of their etches, but he very sensibly suggested making them from machined L-section and using a jig to file the angled section. That's what I'll almost certainly do, but that too would have to wait until I have the solebar and body to measure, in order to judge the dimensions of the pieces to be made.

 

That being said, if anyone reading this knows of something suitable sitting on an etch somewhere, please would you let me know?

[drmditch]

A much delayed question.

Do the body-side castings provide a proper representation of the Tumblehome/Turnunder (whichever is the correct term) of the lower panels?

Most of the models I have seen seem to be very flat sided.

My (now very elderly and inadequate) model of a Dia89 car exaggerates this feature but at least it's there!

 

 

Your thread is inspirational, and I hope that later this year my model will get replaced. 

I still like the Dia89s though!

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by drmditch

[Chas Levin]

22 minutes ago, drmditch said:

A much delayed question.

Do the body-side castings provide a proper representation of the Tumblehome/Turnunder (whichever is the correct term) of the lower panels?

Most of the models I have seen seem to be very flat sided.

My (now very elderly and inadequate) model of a Dia89 car exaggerates this feature but at least it's there!

 

 

Your thread is inspirational, and I hope that later this year my model will get replaced. 

I still like the Dia89s though!

 

Hello and yes, the Nu-Cast sides do have a reasonable tumblehome (which as far as I know is the correct term) and because the way the sides and the ends meet and appear to have different profiles cropped up in an earlier post on the previous page, I took photos of the side pieces in profile to show that aspect of them. I just tried to do a second Quote of that post here, but it created a whole new post, so I'll just re-post the photos:

 

 

 

 

 

 

There's a bit of glare on the ends of the castings, but you can still see that they do have the curves. They're a little variable and it isn't perhaps the most accurate representation, but it is there. 

I may end up using part - or all - of the etched Worsley Works sides though, in which case I'll have to form my own tumblehomes, but I've done that on enough brass coach sides now to be reasonably confident...

 

Thank you for your kind words: 'inspirational' is high praise and I'm delighted if people draw inspiration from my efforts. At the very least, by posting a 'warts and all' account of what I'm doing - complete with errors and with my learning by doing things the wrong way - it should help others avoid the same mistakes!

 

Thank you very much for posting the photo: your diagram 89 Hero looks superb! It may be elderly (how old is it?) but it looks very far from being 'inadequate', at least as far as appearances in that photo suggest. Very interesting to see, as I don't think I've seen any other Dia 89 models: all the others I've seen have been 96/96, not just the Nu-Cast but the scratchbuilt too. 

 

May I please ask some questions about it: What's the origin of it - is it scratchbuilt or from a kit? If it's scratchbuilt, what materials is it made from - the finish looks top notch and if it's elderly, it's clearly held its shape beautifully. How did you power it? You may have read further up this thread the discussions about powering and the problems of using a single Black Beetle or Tenshodo for the Nu-Cast white-metal kit, but it occurs to me as I write this that if your model is scratchbuilt, you perhaps made it of lighter material? Is the articulation working or purely cosmetic? If it's working, how did you arrange it? It looks form the photo as if the rear portion of the body sits on a pivot at the rear of the front bogie...?

[Compound2632]

18 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

tumblehome (which as far as I know is the correct term)

 

Correct in this context from long-established useage. Don't let the naval architects tell you otherwise.

 

I'd be interested in @Jol Wilkinson's view but solely from the photos posted above I found that extruded aluminium cove roof most unconvincing - far too sharply angled.

[Chas Levin]

Thanks for confirming the tumblehome usage - I didn't know it was also used in naval circles...

 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'd be interested in @Jol Wilkinson's view but solely from the photos posted above I found that extruded aluminium cove roof most unconvincing - far too sharply angled.

Do you mean the LNWR 57' cove roofing Stephen? And if so, do you mean you find it unconvincing for its intended use (LNWR carriages) or do you mean you find it unconvincing for Sentinal railcar use?

If the latter, I too wouldn't consider using it for this current project either, I just included it for completeness while looking at all the currently available extruded options and I intend using one of the others, either of the BR Mk1s or the Gresley.

Edited March 13, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Jol Wilkinson]

Tumble home is, AFAIK, an inward curve or slope above the waist line towards the cantrail, from a boat building term "the inward slope of the upper part of a boat's sides". Turn under is below the waist line.

 

However tumble home has been so regularly used to mean the turn under in a carriage side, it is generally, wrongly, accepted as just that.

 

The extruded aluminium cove roofs supplied in LNWR carriage kits I have built have a flatter main arc with smaller radius edges, more like the  main section of a 1899  LNWR.12w diner clerestory roof. Tyey are distinctly different to what we normally think of as an e;;iptical roof.

 

Jack Nelson's LNWR portrayed shows one low elliptical roof and two high elliptical roof profiles, but only one type of 4mm aluminium elliptical profile has been supplied in LNWR kits to my knowledge.

 

I think both the roofs pictured in Chas's post on Tuesday are elliptical, albeit slightly different profiles. As said before Mike Trice introduced a LNER version as he wasn't satisfied with the "standard" version available, which is quite possibly what the Comet one is.

[Chas Levin]

27 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Tumble home is, AFAIK, an inward curve or slope above the waist line towards the cantrail, from a boat building term "the inward slope of the upper part of a boat's sides". Turn under is below the waist line.

 

However tumble home has been so regularly used to mean the turn under in a carriage side, it is generally, wrongly, accepted as just that.

 

The extruded aluminium cove roofs supplied in LNWR carriage kits I have built have a flatter main arc with smaller radius edges, more like the  main section of a 1899  LNWR.12w diner clerestory roof. Tyey are distinctly different to what we normally think of as an e;;iptical roof.

 

Jack Nelson's LNWR portrayed shows one low elliptical roof and two high elliptical roof profiles, but only one type of 4mm aluminium elliptical profile has been supplied in LNWR kits to my knowledge.

 

I think both the roofs pictured in Chas's post on Tuesday are elliptical, albeit slightly different profiles. As said before Mike Trice introduced a LNER version as he wasn't satisfied with the "standard" version available, which is quite possibly what the Comet one is.

Hello Jol, that's very interesting, thank you for clarifying the tumblehome/turnunder question.

You're right that the two roofs I showed on Tuesday are elliptical (March 7th, where I compared the MJT 2970 BR Mk1 and the Comet C10 BR/Bulleid and LMS/GWR/LNER compromise), but in a previous post on March 4th I did compare the Comet 57' LNWR Cove one to the MJT 2971 Gresley Elliptical, as well as comparing the MJT 2970 and 2971 shapes.

I'm assuming, based on what you explained, that the MJT 2971 Gresley version is the one Mike T produced, to replace either their 2970 BR Mk1 or the Comet compromise one, or possibly both. Comparing them that makes sense and the 2971 Gresley is a far better Gresly fit, isn't it?

Edited March 13, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Compound2632]

On 04/03/2023 at 15:33, Chas Levin said:

And just out of interest, here's that LNWR roof next to the MJT 2971 Gresley Elliptical one:

 

 

@Chas Levin, @Jol Wilkinson, I was referring to the extrusion on the left in this photo, which seems to me to be way out for a LNWR cove roof:

 

 

[L&NWR Society website.]

[Chas Levin]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

@Chas Levin, @Jol Wilkinson, I was referring to the extrusion on the left in this photo, which seems to me to be way out for a LNWR cove roof:

 

 

[L&NWR Society website.]

Please excuse me Stephen, for doubting your accuracy or your powers of observation: I should have known that you meant precisely what you said, as you usually do!

 

At first glance I'd be inclined to agree that it looks a little different, but I'm not an LNWR person and have spent very little time looking at their roofs, whereas I am reasonably familiar with LNER shapes.

 

I bought the Comet LNWR ones for another project completely unconnected with the LNWR, on the recommendation of someone pointing out that the profile happened to be a good match for the project in question, so I've never actually considered whether or not the shape is a good match for the LNWR.

 

From the point of view of someone as little versed in LNWR lore as I am, may I ask if there were perhaps different roof shapes at different times, so that the Comet one might be a better match for another type - or sub-type?