East Barnet Joint Stock - a workbench

[Chas Levin]

5 hours ago, micklner said:

I have looked at Hope's power bogie.

No obvious markings thereon , the motor looks like a Mashima Can in a Black plastic casing with Brass gears. It is happilly spinning its wheels if power is applied too fast, and moves well. No obvious way to remove the bogie from the body, so I leaving well alone. It was fitted about ten years or more ago.

It does'nt look like a Bull Ant or Black Beetle from current photos on the Internet.

Hm, interesting; thanks for looking Mick. Glad to hear it does the job and definitely therefore leave well alone if it isn't obviously removable!

Of the photos of other builds that I've found online that actually show the power unit, two have a Tenshodo, one has an enormous and quite old looking unit that might be a homebrew and one has a vertically mounted motor with quite a wide worm, engaging a gear mounted on one axle. I'm hesitant to post photos on here as I can't remember where they came from or whose models they are, but clearly there's some variety out there, not forgetting Jonanthan W's BullAnt Major too.

[Chas Levin]

12 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

Hi Chas

 

As I understand it, the power unit that worked best was the Bull Ant. I don’t think that this is available anymore though.

 

The original power unit is removable- it pivots near the roof. I used the supplied K’s motor and that had insufficient power/ adhesion to power the bogie on its own - let alone the railcar😀. At that point I gave up!

 

There is plenty of space for a very large motor. It is sorting out the gear train that I’m not sure about ( my lack of knowledge really - probably not really difficult). I think it is important that the drive is on two axles of the bogie and not just the one axle as designed. A horizontal double ended motor with worm and gear might work, or maybe a vertical motor and then some gears to transfer the rotation through 90 degrees. 

 

Another possibility might be to have two powered bogies?

 

Some options ….but no solutions yet🙂

 

Jon

Hm... interesting stuff Jon. You're right of course that gearing isn't as difficult as it seems, it's just that we aren't sufficiently knowledgeable to be able to glance quickly at a project like this and say 'ah yes, that'll need a 30 tooth 50:1 2-stage reverse bevelled spur train' or whatever it might be.

Leastways, I'm not able to do that - please excuse me if I'm doing you an injustice! 🙂

 

I shall ponder - it's also just crossed my mind that I may already have a High Level motor bogie etch stashed for another project, which might be interesting to have a look at. I know I was going to add one to my last order and then they were unavailable for a while and I can't remember whether I followed it up... which rather suggests that either I have too many future projects stashed, or that my memory is getting less reliable... or both! 🤨

Edited January 7, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

While awaiting some alternative transfers for the GNR wagon to compare with those I have in stock, I startedsorting out a freight load for it:

 

 

A mixed load as you can see, the sort of thing a short local pick-up freight might carry.

 

I've also been making another display stand, as the number of completed kits slowly grows; this time, I went for a double track, to try and make the most of my available shelf space. A suitable offcut was first stained and varnished, then a couple of lengths of rail araldited overnight:

 

 

And with the weights removed, a few more vehicles can be accommodated:

 

 

Rather more excitingly, the works plates for the LRM GNR C2 arrived from Fox. Regular readers may remember that I had a problem with all the plates I either had in stock or could find online, as they were all slightly too tall for the sections of the frames that protrude above the footplate. I asked Fox Transfers if they could produce some of their 1899 Doncaster plates in 3mm rather than their standard 4mm scale; they advised that legibility would be compromised but it still seemed the best option, as having the plates too tall looked terrible. Here's the result, which I think looks the part; to be frank, I needed a magnifying glass to read even the 4mm plates!

 

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

While I was dealing with works plates, I also made some for the 10T wagon, as I'd had difficulty finding any pre-produced.

I started off with a high resolution scan of the example of a GNR wagon plate in Peter Tatlow's 'LNER Wagons', which has the number 421E. I imported that into Photoshop and played with the numbers to produce one similar to the numbering examples Dan Pinnock gives in the 10T wagon kit instuctions, but only by duplicating a 4 and a 2, as I didn't feel confident enough in fabricating other numbers while matching the font.

Looking at photos of 10T and similar wagons in Volume 1 of the excellent GNRS 'GNR Wagons Pictorial' (part of a splendid Christmas present!) I noted that these plates were surprisingly large, filling the entire height of the solebar in some cases and with very large typefaces too, in some cases the same size as the numbering on the wagon body and much larger than plates and typefaces of the later LNER plates.

I tried to assess the right size to print the result to fit the solebar but found it surprisingly difficult, so I resorted to printing a series in increments of 0.1mm, to match them to the solebar in situ:

 

 

The printing is on an A4 label, so by cutting round the printed black area with a margin approximately equal to the lettering thickness, you get the characteristic white frame too:

 

 

And here's the result in place:

 

[Chas Levin]

The GNR wagon is finished; as I now seem to say after every project, it took longer than I'd intended (it was just meant to be a quick revival of my white metal soldering) and part of that was because I found I didn't have suitably sized transfers for the large 'GN' letters. They're pretty big and it's very noticeable in photos, so I didn't want to compromise, but no-one makes them that size... While I was still pondering, having put off dealing with it until after I needed them, I found myself ordering some unrelated transfers from Precision Labels (http://www.precisionlabels.com/) and thought of asking if they could run some up from a scan of the 'GN' letters I had and hey presto, I had lettering the right size in a couple of days. Great company, John Peck is very helpful, quickest delivery and excellent quality transfers! Usual disclaimer - I have no connection, just a new and very happy customer. I know custom transfer companies have been around a while now, but it's the first time I've done this and it's great fun! While I was at it, I also got the 'LOAD 10 TONS' lettering done in the right size too - it needs to be about two thirds the height of a plank and the only ones I had were far too small or the same height as a plank and neither looked right.

 

Ok, enough waffle - here are some photos:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I had been on the point of adding a fairly mixed load of cargo, until discovering I was under some misconceptions about how wagons were used for freight transport, through learning a lot after starting this topic:

 

I knew that closed vans were used for small parcels but I thought wagons were also used in a similar way, with part-loads destined for multiple destinations combined into a single wagon. That set me wondering how they secured the remaining part of a load when some of it was delivered at a stop along the pick-up freight route, but I was rapidly set straight in the above thread by several people far more knowledgable than me and I learned that open wagons were almost always used for one unified load, going to a single consignee, with 'goods smalls' travelling in closed vans and being sorted at each stop.

So a single load will need to be fabricated, thought I'm rather pleased with how well the wagon interior has turned out on this one, so I may take my time filling it up...

[Chas Levin]

A short pause in modelling for some slightly different trains:

 

 

Through places like these:

 

 

 

 

 

And having taken the TGV from Paris to Nice, arrival in time for dinner:

 

 

No model shops here that I've found so far, but maybe tomorrow… 

[MikeTrice]

Just in time for the Flower and light parades. Highly recommended.

[Chas Levin]

13 minutes ago, MikeTrice said:

Just in time for the Flower and light parades. Highly recommended.

Yes indeed Mike - we had a terrific Carnival yesterday, with more to come!

Edited February 12, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

@MikeTrice - the Nice Carnival floats drove into town past our hotel:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Back on topic with my next posts, I promise!! Once we're safely home again (which looked briefly in danger today when our SNCF departure tomorrow was cancelled due to industrial action) I'll be making a proper start on the NuCast Sentinel-Cammell Railcar.

 

As a precursor to that, thinking about the much-discussed question of powering the 'car, I'd already found a note in the Black Beetle instruction leaflet suggesting 100g as a maximum weight, or 200g if using more than one bogie, to guard against excessive bearing wear being the reason given.

That got me curious about what all the various parts of the whitemetal kit weigh and what savings you make by replacing different pieces with lighter materials, so it'll be out with the digital scales at the weekend…

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

As promised, some information on the weights of various parts of the NuCast white-metal LNER Sentinel-Cammell Railcar kit. First, a quick check that my digital scales are accurate (nothing fancy, they cost £10 online and are intended for kitchen use):

 

 

And off we go:

 

 

OK, no need to post a series of photos showing different parts of the kit on the scales, but at least there's no doubt as to how they're being weighed.

 

The weights are:

 

Roof (2 pieces) - 83g

Sides (4 pieces) - 97g

Floorpan (2 pieces) - 78g

Ends (2) and internal partitions (2) - 33g

Bogies (4 sides, 1 frame) - 26g

Assorted detailing (incl. battery boxes, steps, brake cylinders & hoses etc) - 51g

 

So if you build the kit as intended, you have 368g of white-metal to start with; and by the time you've added various other details such as coal hatch doors, interior gubbins, buffers and so forth, I'd say you'd be North of 400g.

 

Slightly over the recommended 200g for a two-bogie vehicle under Black Beetle power...

 

I can see replacing most of the WM detailing with brass, NS or plastic - things like steps, battery boxes, brake gear - as being fairly easy and probably giving a better looking result too, along with the internal partitions, but the main weight culprits here are the roof, sides, floor and ends, which along with the bogie sides leave little change from 300g.

 

In pondering what to do whilst getting starting cleaning flash off the castings (there's very little, they're nice and crisp) and straightening them, I've also been following this excellent NuCast Sentinel build thread here on RMWeb:

 

In the course of this thread, @micklner posted a link to a set of Sentinel etches in 0.0015" brass by Worsley Works (http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/Image-Pages/Image_4mm_LNERSentinel.htm) which I realised I had seen quite a long time ago and completely forgotten about, but a quick email chat with the very helpful Allen Doherty or Worsley Works proved very interesting.

 

The etch includes a floor with attached solebars and buffer beams and while I had been contemplating scratchbuilding a floor in brass as you have done in your build thread as linked above @34016, I was a little nervous of getting it right... The other things I think the Worsley etch may make a better job of than white-metal are the window frames along the sides (which look predictably slimmer and more prototypical than the thickness necessarily adopted for WM casting) and some of the front and rear end faces' detailing.

 

It occurred to me that it might be possible to build a 'Frankencar' (or 'Cammellstein'?) using elements of both kits: the brass Worsley floor, the NuCast WM roof, and the sides from a combination of the two materials, taking advantage of the depth of the WM castings for things like the doors, but using brass areas for things like window frames (though the heavy white-metal roof would need suitable support of course). With lightweight replacements for the detailing parts too, I reckon it might be possible to come in at not too far over the magic 200g...🤔

 

Ok, that may be a little optimistic, but as a teacher at school used to say, 'aim for the stars and you might hit a chimney-pot'...

 

The upshot of all this is that I've ordered the Worsley etch 😁.

 

I don't think there's any other way to find out exactly what can and can't be done than to sit down with both kits; it'll make the build more interesting to put together and - hopefully - give a very good end result.

Delivery time is 4-6 weeks, so I'll take the cleaning up, straightening etc of the NuCast white-metal parts as far as I can and then put the kit aside to await the etches.

 

It also occurred to me that it might provide a useful experiment in building to a deadline, if I set out to finish building something else between the two stages of this project... Time to raid the stash and try again to overcome my inclination only to work on one project at a time... 😅

[micklner]

I look forward to seeing how you get on with the etches !!.  I still dont ever remember seeing them just before I mentioned them earlier. Perhaps because there is now a photo on the Worsley page . Alan is very helpful, when he supplied me with NER Clerestory Roofs.

One Black Beetle only 100gms sounds a very low capacity. I would'nt worry re the underframe and bogie details, some low down weight will be beneficial ( I believe).

The Roof is the main culprit , I tried to figure a way of making a plastic copy but gave up, and used the casting with the inside ground out as much a possible, a messy job at best.

Edited February 20, 2023 by micklner

[Chas Levin]

3 hours ago, micklner said:

I look forward to seeing how you get on with the etches !!.  I still dont ever remember seeing them just before I mentioned them earlier. Perhaps because there is now a photo on the Worsley page . Alan is very helpful, when he supplied me with NER Clerestory Roofs.

One Black Beetle only 100gms sounds a very low capacity. I would'nt worry re the underframe and bogie details, some low down weight will be beneficial ( I believe).

The Roof is the main culprit , I tried to figure a way of making a plastic copy but gave up, and used the casting with the inside ground out as much a possible, a messy job at best.

Yes, I'm looking forward to seeing what can be done too, quite excited in fact! Multi-media kits - as some call them - always seem quite intriguing to me (probably their novelty) so the idea of making up one myself is definitely fun.

I think you may be right about the Worsley photos being the new aspect; that would help explain why I didn't remember it either. I'll ask Allen when I'm next emailing. I remember asking you where your clerestory roofs had come from.

 

Regarding weight, I thought I'd just double-check the wording and the Beetle instructions don't say that 100g is an absolute limit, they say that "the Black Beetle is relatively lightly constructed and should not be overloaded. To avoid premature wear of the bearing surfaces do not exceed a weight of about 100g on top of the centre pivot", so there's some room for flexibility there.

 

And on the question of double bogie loading, I must own up to having made a mistake and quoted the instructions incorrectly: the instructions continue: "This means that with one Black Beetle and the weight of the body equally shared between two bogies, the total weight should not exceed 250g." Apologies for the misquote in my previous post on this, where I gave that figure as 200g. The good news though is that I have an extra 50g to play with, not an insignificant amount, so I'm very glad I went back and checked!

 

I take your point though Mick about underframe detail possibly adding welcome weight at a lower level; I had intended to press ahead with fabricating brass and plastic replacements for some of those white-metal parts, but perhaps it's best to wait for the etches and see how the weight is distributed across the final combination of materials in the main structure...

 

Excellent idea though to remove material from inside the roof: I hadn't thought of doing that. I agree that creating a replacement might be more trouble than it's worth. I had considered it though (realising how much weight is there) but there's quite a lot going on in terms of detail and shape; mind you, I was just reading a thread on here earlier about Gresley roof ends which caused me to think about how you can join rounded or domed roof ends to the simpler arc of the main roof area... I wonder whether you could use the NuCast roof ends but insert a single long piece of rolled brass as the main middle section? 🤔

[micklner]

I have measured anything :-

 

I wonder if a MJT Gresley Roof and its cast ends with some modifying might work . That Roof would be fairly light and strong.

[Chas Levin]

16 minutes ago, micklner said:

I have measured anything :-

Did you mean you haven't measured anything? 😉

17 minutes ago, micklner said:

I wonder if a MJT Gresley Roof and its cast ends with some modifying might work . That Roof would be fairly light and strong.

I have some extruded aluminium lengths of Gresley roof that I think are Comet (bought quite a long time ago) and they're rather too wide, but I think they're intended for later Gresley Suburban stock.

I'm going have a look at what other roof sections are currently available and see how they might fit with both the NuCast and the Worsley sides. I now have the Yeadon Sentinel volume to look at too, so I can check dimensions properly.

 

Going back to the idea of using the cast roof, removing material from inside the pieces is a great idea in theory, but how did you judge how much it was safe to remove without weakening what is quite a soft material, or even breaking through? I thought about adding extension pieces or pads to the insides of digital caliper jaws, to enable them to measure the thickness of material at the centre of the roof arc...

[micklner]

I have'nt !!!!🙃

 

The etched version ,that will have much thinner sides maybe more viable.

 

The MJT version obviously matches the End castings and is a better shape. I might have one in the shed, I will look tomorrow.

 

I simply took a chance with the grinding, its so thick it never went through!! . There was still plenty of metal left !!.

Edited February 21, 2023 by micklner

[micklner]

Aluminium Roof section which I believe is made by MJT.  It has a ledge underneath and a thin Gutter on the outside edge.

 

Outside 35.24 on the gutter edge

Inside to the outer edge of the ledge  34.38

 

My Sentinel Outside dimension  35.75 wide so very close.

 

Profile appear to ok .

 

As said earlier I doubt if it will fit the Nucast due to the thickness of the sides, or you can simply file the ledge off . It maybe ok for the etched version as made.

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by micklner

[Chas Levin]

Very interesting, thanks Mick.

On my way out so I can't look in detail right now, but a quick measurement of the two NuCast roof pieces (as yet unfixed to anything of course) gives their width as 33.5mm, but they have no gutter: does your built Sentinel have guttering, and/or is your outside measurement of 35.75 taking in the sides and their projections as well?

A quick look in Yeadon at Dia. 96 gives 9' over cornices (36mm in 4mm scale), 9'3" 'extreme width' (37 mm in 4mm scale), shown as being measured from roughly the midpoint of the sides, where there's a very slight bow outwards.

So if your 35.75 is gutter to gutter (or 'over cornices') that sounds pretty spot on, but my bare roof castings appear to be missing 1mm each side - must surely be guttering/cornice then?

[micklner]

Gutters on mine

 

 

 

 

Presumably yours have been filed off in the past?.

[Chas Levin]

7 hours ago, micklner said:

Gutters on mine... Presumably yours have been filed off in the past?

 

Actually I'm pretty sure not, Mick. The pieces were unfiled, with cusp and pips intact and no guttering visible - here are some photos after I'd started cleaning them up, so you can still see plenty of pips and also see that there's no guttering; there is a mould line running along the lower curve of the edges, about a third of the way up between the very edge and the rainstrip, but I'm sure that's not meant to represent guttering: it's very uneven, too shallow and nowhere near the edge - see what you think:

 

 

 

 

 

Photos clearely show the curved edges completely smooth so I plan to remove those lines as part of the clean-up process, though if anyone knows of a reason why I shouldn't please let me know!

I realise of course that I may not end up using these castings, but judging how they look compared to other roofs will be easier if they're cleaned up and I rather enjoy cleaning things up and making them look their best...

 

The sides though have a stepped top section which I think is meant to represent the cantrail and looking at prototype photos, it looks to me as if there isn't anything else missing - here are the sides:

 

 

 

 

It looks to me like the unguttered roof edge will sit on those cantrails and produce exactly the appearance you have there, Mick, so I think we would end up with the same result: what do you think?

[Chas Levin]

With apologies for the hasty photos of pieces I haven't yet started straightening yet - the sides are pretty bendy at the moment - hopefully this gives some idea of what I mean about how they seem to want to join:

 

 

 

[micklner]

Mine was built 10 plus years ago, in the words of Eric and Ernie I cannot see the join on mine !! .

 

I believe you are correct the roof sits on top of the sides .If the roof is narrower than the sides when the body is  assembled, that will confirm it straight away.

The wiggly lines is a mould mark and should be smoothed out.

 

It may make the etched version more interesting, as I doubt it will have the pronouced shoulder of the whitemetal version present. Worsley parts come with zero instructions ( my roofs had none). He may be able to suggest re roof fitting  methods in due course. Its worth asking him. The photo on his site lists the kit builder , they maybe will willing to give advice on how they built their version, it looks very well built.

Edited February 21, 2023 by micklner

[Chas Levin]

Ha - love the Eric and Ernie reference! 😂

 

Sounds like we're thinking the same on cantrail / guttering and on mould marks: thanks for confirmation on those points Mick.

 

I'll be very interested too to see the etches; apart from anything else, I think the castings have a great advantage in being able to portray the depth of the various levels running along the sides - the widest outer walls, the inset doorways and so forth - which can't be done the same way on an etch. Allen from Worsley very kindly sent a scan of the artwork and looking at that and looking at the photo of the model on his site, I'm quite puzzled: your suggestion of asking the builder is a very good one and another thing I'd not thought of and shall do.

 

As to roof fitting, I shan't be able to consider that until I'm decided which parts to use from which kit; so far, I'm thinking about using the castings for most of the sides but the etches for the window frames (for their thinner and more accurately straight appearance, so roof fixing would still be available along much of the casting sides and the ends... but we shall see.

 

I'd also thought about starting to make up various detailing parts in brass or plastic to replace some white-metal ones for a better look (the steps, the chimney and so forth) but perhaps it's better to wait until I know which larger parts and materials I'm going to use as that may dictate fixings and therefore how such fittings are terminated...

Edited February 22, 2023 by Chas Levin

[micklner]

Good points re the etch version . Looking at the Worsley model photo the doors may be a bit shallow?. I actually thought you were going to build two seperate Railcars not a combination !.

 

I found this photo yesterday on the Banks site, this confirms some colours like the handles.

 

https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/127-lner-rail-car

 

 

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, micklner said:

Good points re the etch version . Looking at the Worsley model photo the doors may be a bit shallow?. I actually thought you were going to build two seperate Railcars not a combination !.

 

I found this photo yesterday on the Banks site, this confirms some colours like the handles.

 

https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/127-lner-rail-car

 

 

No, just the one build but using parts from both kits: if I'd already started the NuCast (as 34016 had done on his builds) I wouldn't start trying to incorporate another manufacturer's parts, but the timing is alright for me to do it (delaying while the etches come is no problem) and I like the idea of using parts where the material suits different aspects better (eg deep doorways or narrow window frames). It's not too extravagant either, as I picked up the NuCast kit very cheaply.

 

Thanks for the Steve Banks link - I'd seen that photo before but I hadn't noticed the colour of the handles at all: do you think it's actually a paint colour (bronze, perhaps?) or is it just early morning or late afternoon sunlight on brass?

Looking down at the steps and the axlebox below the front door handles it looks to me as if it may be a sunlight effect…

[micklner]

Dodgy old colour renditions, defo Brass. Note the rusty chimney !.