East Barnet Joint Stock - a workbench

[Chas Levin]

2 hours ago, micklner said:

Dodgy old colour renditions, defo Brass. Note the rusty chimney !.

Good spot Mick - I hadn't seen the chimney either!

 

I realised while working on the GNR C2 and consulting photos that I have a tendency to spot one or two things and then look away, or to another photo, missing all sorts of other points.

I resolved at the time to learn to study photos more closely, so that I came away with more information.

 

Evidently, that resolution isn't going so well... 🙄

[Chas Levin]

Lots done today on cleaning up the NuCast Sentinel castings, ones I'll either definitely use or may very well use:

 

 

The only really awkward ones were the ends, which had quite prominent and quite wiggly mould lines running down the curved corners! those corners are quite a noticeable feature of the vehicle so I was keen to remove the lines, but they took some work, particularly delicate due to the need to preserve the shape. I think I've done a reasonable job and as usual, they look better in real life than in the photos, where the strong directional light catches the differently reflective surfaces rather enthusiastically:

 

 

Assuming I do use the ends (highly likely) I'll also remove the cast lamp irons and replace with brass, but that comes under upgrades and detailing, at a later stage.

 

The major pieces still to clean up are the roof pieces, which have similar mould lines along the curves as seen in one of my previous posts... a job for tomorrow!

 

Meanwhile, in another pile are white-metal castings I plan to replace with brass or plastic:

 

 

The weight of these is negligible and brass or other material substitutes will look a lot better.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

The clean-up of the mould lines on the Sentinel roof sections is predictably more involved than the other pieces, because aside from the greater length and the raised mould line, there's a difference in level above and below that line and frustratingly the section below the line, running between it and the edge of the roof, is the one that's lower!

I think this is what Iain Rice is referring to in his "Whitemetal locos - a Kitbuilder's Guide" when he notes that "where the mould registration has not been well-controlled during manufacture, mould part lines can manifest as considerable 'steps' in the surface..."

 

Not only that, but what initially appeared as a very thin mould line turned out to be the top of a much wider raised band. (No disrespect to the current Nu-Cast company by the way - this is a very old Autocom kit).

 

Out came the tools:

 

 

But no matter how carefully I took down the raised mould line, a dip appeared between it and the edge, as I also had to watch the line broaden out into a wider band: clearly that was how it was formed lower down, but that hadn't been apparent earlier:

 

 

Frustrating.

 

I'm wary of taking off so much that it alters the roof profile, which is very distinctive, so I've taken the process up to the photos below for now, where three of the sides are nearly there but one still looks quite poor; in fact, what you see on that fourth side aren't projections still standing proud of the surface - the feed pips weren't too difficult to eliminate - they're dips and pockmarks:

 

 

 

 

 

At least the heavy work's done; my thought now is to set these pieces to one side until I definitely decide I'm using them. Then, I'll fill those depressions with 70 degree solder at the same time as I join the two halves and dressing down the results will be part of the same work as disguising the roof join.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

On 21/02/2023 at 20:14, micklner said:

Worsley parts come with zero instructions ( my roofs had none). He may be able to suggest re roof fitting  methods in due course. Its worth asking him. The photo on his site lists the kit builder , they maybe will willing to give advice on how they built their version, it looks very well built.

 

Thanks again Mick for suggesting contacting the builder of the Sentinel model pictured on Worsley Works' site: I emailed him, he suggested having a chat on the phone and he was extremely helpful and generous with his time, even having very kindly dug out his notes from the build before we spoke.

His name's Miles Glenn and he's a professional builder and while I know most people reading this are probably mainly interested in building their own models, I offered to include a link to his site in case anyone reads this who's looking for a professional modeller to commission to build something for them - you'll see on the site that his standards are very high:

 

"Better By Miles"

 

We covered various points in our conversation:

 

1. Roof - he used a Comet aluminium roof for the main length, sculpting the ends from filler (so I'll check their range as making up ends or splicing the Nu-Cast whitemetal ends on might be a lot less work than joining the two pieces I have, not to mention making the whitemetal ones look smart enough; a one-piece roof would also be stronger).

 

2. Inset doors - he wasn't entirely sure at this distance in time how he'd inset the doors but we agreed from the photo that they're apparently inset more deeply than just two layers of brass, so he thought he must have put in an extra layer as a frame. Other than that though, the sides and ends are pure Worsley; he said forming the ends wasn't fun, so if the Nu-Cast whitemetal ones look good they'd be worth using.

 

3. Power unit - the model uses a Black Beetle since it's almost entirely brass and aluminium and weight wasn't an issue. He mentioned thought that when building another much heavier whitemetal railcar, he'd used a pair of Black Beetles and confirmed that they perfectly well together, with none of the problems you can have double-heading dissimilar motors.

 

4. Bogie sides - these are MJT whitemetal and not really quite right in layout, but they were the closest he had and the customer was happy, so we agreed that those in the Nu-Cast kit must surely be a better option.

 

5. Seating - the seats are Southern Pride, with the addition of Comet etched brass seat sides (and even given the relatively low resolution photo, I had already thought they looked good so I might well copy that). Seat colour was Phoenix Precision Mahogany for the wooden interior and a sort of stone colour for the fabric, mainly at the customer's behest (and I had already thought that scheme very attractive so unless I can find contrary information on the prototype colours, I may well go with that too).

 

6. Buffers - these were filed down from cast brass round shank ones. (While the heads on the Nu-Cast ones I have are a little heavy, the bodies should clean up well so I might try keeping the bodies and drilling out to accept sprung brass heads).

 

So there we are - a very helpful conversation, with some very interesting information (and I did ask if he was happy for me to post it on here before doing so).

 

One other point: I noticed that he's modelled the whistle as lying down flat, pointing towards the back of the car. I'd noticed this in some prototype photos too, but also seen that others show the whistle standing up vertically: does anyone know what was happening there? Did these vehicles have whistles that folded down, perhaps for clearing low loading gauges, or perhaps something to do with their proximity to the coal hatch doors? OR were some made one way, some another? I don;t recall ever seeing whistles anything other than vertical before...

[Chas Levin]

Further to my question about flattened whistles, here are three crops from photos in Yeadon, one showing a whistle flattened and pointing rearwards, one forwards and one vertical:

 

 

 

 

If anyone knows anything about this practice please would you let me know?

 

Also, that third picture is one of the best for showing the double, two-coloured lining that I've seen, the thicker outer black and the thinner lighter colour (which we came to the conclusion was green) both being clearly visible and clearly flat paint on the curve, rather than any kind of a physically stepped inner panel.

Edited March 4, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Jon4470]

12 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Further to my question about flattened whistles, here are three crops from photos in Yeadon, one showing a whistle flattened and pointing rearwards, one forwards and one vertical:

 

 

 

 

If anyone knows anythoing about this practice please would you let me know?

 

Also, that third picture is one of the best for showing the double, two-coloured lining that I've seen, the thicker outer black and the thinner lighter colour (which we came to the conclusion was green) both being clearly visible and clearly flat paint on the curve, rather than any kind of a physically stepped inner panel.

Something I hadn’t noticed before, is the junction between the lower panels on the front and side. Looks like the front panels are vertical (as they turn through 90 degrees) and the side panels have a curvature.

[Chas Levin]

2 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

Something I hadn’t noticed before, is the junction between the lower panels on the front and side. Looks like the front panels are vertical (as they turn through 90 degrees) and the side panels have a curvature.

Yes, good spot: I hadn't noticed that either, though I like to hope I'd have picked up on it when I got to the point of assembly!

 

I think what we're looking at there may be the difference between the tumblehome of the sides and the straight front; thanks Jon for drawing attention to the way they intersect as it's something quite characteristic that needs to look right on a model.

The tumblehome is represented in the castings, quite well actually - I've tried to take some photos but it's difficult to capture:

 

 

 

 

 

We'll see how the ends and sides unite in due course, depending also on what I use from the NuCast and Worsley kits...

 

Interesting though, as you say, that the sides do look as if they bow outwards starting at the very top, with the outward bow being 'corrected' by way of the tunblehome: that's not quite the same as the usual carriage sides where the upper parts are vertical and the tumblehome curves inwards from that vertical plane.

 

I'll have a look at the drawings in Yeadon and I also have an Isinglass drawing on the way...

[34016]

On 28/02/2023 at 21:28, Chas Levin said:

 

Thanks again Mick for suggesting contacting the builder of the Sentinel model pictured on Worsley Works' site: I emailed him, he suggested having a chat on the phone and he was extremely helpful and generous with his time, even having very kindly dug out his notes from the build before we spoke.

His name's Miles Glenn and he's a professional builder and while I know most people reading this are probably mainly interested in building their own models, I offered to include a link to his site in case anyone reads this who's looking for a professional modeller to commission to build something for them - you'll see on the site that his standards are very high:

 

"Better By Miles"

 

We covered various points in our conversation:

 

1. Roof - he used a Comet aluminium roof for the main length, sculpting the ends from filler (so I'll check their range as making up ends or splicing the Nu-Cast whitemetal ends on might be a lot less work than joining the two pieces I have, not to mention making the whitemetal ones look smart enough; a one-piece roof would also be stronger).

 

2. Inset doors - he wasn't entirely sure at this distance in time how he'd inset the doors but we agreed from the photo that they're apparently inset more deeply than just two layers of brass, so he thought he must have put in an extra layer as a frame. Other than that though, the sides and ends are pure Worsley; he said forming the ends wasn't fun, so if the Nu-Cast whitemetal ones look good they'd be worth using.

 

3. Power unit - the model uses a Black Beetle since it's almost entirely brass and aluminium and weight wasn't an issue. He mentioned thought that when building another much heavier whitemetal railcar, he'd used a pair of Black Beetles and confirmed that they perfectly well together, with none of the problems you can have double-heading dissimilar motors.

 

4. Bogie sides - these are MJT whitemetal and not really quite right in layout, but they were the closest he had and the customer was happy, so we agreed that those in the Nu-Cast kit must surely be a better option.

 

5. Seating - the seats are Southern Pride, with the addition of Comet etched brass seat sides (and even given the relatively low resolution photo, I had already thought they looked good so I might well copy that). Seat colour was Phoenix Precision Mahogany for the wooden interior and a sort of stone colour for the fabric, mainly at the customer's behest (and I had already thought that scheme very attractive so unless I can find contrary information on the prototype colours, I may well go with that too).

 

6. Buffers - these were filed down from cast brass round shank ones. (While the heads on the Nu-Cast ones I have are a little heavy, the bodies should clean up well so I might try keeping the bodies and drilling out to accept sprung brass heads).

 

So there we are - a very helpful conversation, with some very interesting information (and I did ask if he was happy for me to post it on here before doing so).

 

One other point: I noticed that he's modelled the whistle as lying down flat, pointing towards the back of the car. I'd noticed this in some prototype photos too, but also seen that others show the whistle standing up vertically: does anyone know what was happening there? Did these vehicles have whistles that folded down, perhaps for clearing low loading gauges, or perhaps something to do with their proximity to the coal hatch doors? OR were some made one way, some another? I don;t recall ever seeing whistles anything other than vertical before...

I wish I'd thought of the aluminium roof!

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, 34016 said:

I wish I'd thought of the aluminium roof!

It's a great idea in principle, but the more I investigate the more I'm confused about the roof profile; I had some of the MJT Gresley aluminium roofing in stock, but it's definitely different to the NuCast one - here's a photo with half of the Nu-Cast whitemetal roof sat on top of the MJT one and you can see that the MJT profile is a more domed and the whole piece is wider - I'm not sure if it could be reduced or filed down to match:

 

 

Looking at prototype photos however, it now looks to me as if the Nu-Cast one might have too shallow a dome and the aluminium ones may actually be a closer match.

 

I've also just ordered the Comet Elliptical carriage roof (which is described on the Wizard Models site as "a compromise roof profile. The actual dimension from gutter to the apex of the roof arc is approximately 0.5mm too high for BR Mk1 and Bulleid carriages, and approximately 0.5mm too low for the LMS, GWR and LNER") and that one might be a better starting point.

Miles Glenn certainly achieved an excellent result on his model so that's a pretty good recommendation; hopefully, it might be slight narrower than the MJT ones and the ideal would be to match an aluminium length to the cast Nu-Cast roof ends.

 

Re-reading your thread though @34016, you had quite a bit of work to do to get the whitemetal roof to fit at all, so perhaps the aluminium solution will work out about the same amount of work?

 

STOP PRESS: a parcel from Dart Castings just arrived which I think contains their 2970 roof (described as BR Mk1 profile) so we'll see what that's like...

Edited March 4, 2023 by Chas Levin

[micklner]

The couple I have which I thought were MJT maybe Comet perhaps. They have a ledge underneath as well. I can measure them if needed.

[Jol Wilkinson]

As far as I know there have possibly been only two aluminium elliptical roof profiles manufactured. The first was used in a variety of kits, including the Brain Badger (later Stephenson Carriages) LNWR kits.

 

I believe Mike Trice produced the MJT version as he wasn't satisfied with the earlier version profile for LNER carriages. I don't know what the difference is, having only used the earlier version.

 

A cove rood profile roof was also produced, used on a number of LNWR carriage kits and possibly others.

 

These roofs are extruded through a steel die. The die is expensive and the minimum order volume (possibly measured in hundreds of metres) is high. All this requires a large investment, which probably has prevented aluminium extruded roofs being available in more profiles.

[richard i]

Had you thought of building the white metal one and casting a replacement, certainly lighter than the white metal version.

richard 

[34016]

1 hour ago, Chas Levin said:

It's a great idea in principle, but the more I investigate the more I'm confused about the roof profile; I had some of the MJT Gresley aluminium roofing in stock, but it's definitely different to the NuCast one - here's a photo with half of the Nu-Cast whitemetal roof sat on top of the MJT one and you can see that the MJT profile is a more domed and the whole piece is wider - I'm not sure if it could be reduced or filed down to match:

 

 

Looking at prototype photos however, it now looks to me as if the Nu-Cast one might have too shallow a dome and the aluminium ones may actually be a closer match.

 

I've also just ordered the Comet Elliptical carriage roof (which is described on the Wizard Models site as "a compromise roof profile. The actual dimension from gutter to the apex of the roof arc is approximately 0.5mm too high for BR Mk1 and Bulleid carriages, and approximately 0.5mm too low for the LMS, GWR and LNER") and that one might be a better starting point.

Miles Glenn certainly achieved an excellent result on his model so that's a pretty good recommendation; hopefully, it might be slight narrower than the MJT ones and the ideal would be to match an aluminium length to the cast Nu-Cast roof ends.

 

Re-reading your thread though @34016, you had quite a bit of work to do to get the whitemetal roof to fit at all, so perhaps the aluminium solution will work out about the same amount of work?

 

STOP PRESS: a parcel from Dart Castings just arrived which I think contains their 2970 roof (described as BR Mk1 profile) so we'll see what that's like...

I had to adjust the profile of the roof on, as the two halves didn't match. I'm not sure which profile is correct, but it may be possible to flatten the ally one maybe?

[Chas Levin]

59 minutes ago, micklner said:

The couple I have which I thought were MJT maybe Comet perhaps. They have a ledge underneath as well. I can measure them if needed.

Thanks Mick, I may come back to you on that but I have Comet ones on order so I'll be abel to compare them with the MJT I already had, and Jol's reply confirms what I'd remembered about the small number of different profiles out there...

45 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

As far as I know there have possibly been only two aluminium elliptical roof profiles manufactured. The first was used in a variety of kits, including the Brain Badger (later Stephenson Carriages) LNWR kits.

 

I believe Mike Trice produced the MJT version as he wasn't satisfied with the earlier version profile for LNER carriages. I don't know what the difference is, having only used the earlier version.

 

A cove rood profile roof was also produced, used on a number of LNWR carriage kits and possibly others.

 

These roofs are extruded through a steel die. The die is expensive and the minimum order volume (possibly measured in hundreds of metres) is high. All this requires a large investment, which probably has prevented aluminium extruded roofs being available in more profiles.

Thanks Jol; I'd heard that somewhere before, that there were only 2-3 different profiles that had been done. I don't yet know how the MJT and Comet ones compare as I only have MJT, but as the Comet ones are described on the Wizard site as being a compromise and as Mike is a dedicated man when it comes to accuracy of things like roof profiles, his having wanted to better the available versions sounds right to me!

48 minutes ago, richard i said:

Had you thought of building the white metal one and casting a replacement, certainly lighter than the white metal version.

richard 

Hello Richard, no, I hadn't thought of that, partly because casting isn't something I've ever tried, or something I'm set up for. I'm fairly confident of being able to massage one or other of the available pre-formed ones into something acceptable, but casting my own is certainly something to keep on the back burner...

8 minutes ago, 34016 said:

I had to adjust the profile of the roof on, as the two halves didn't match. I'm not sure which profile is correct, but it may be possible to flatten the ally one maybe?

I thought about that too; aluminium is pretty rigid though and I'm not sure of my ability to change the shape evenly and accurately. Mind you, it would only be by a small amount so perhaps a combination of flattening and filing might work...?🤔

 

That's the thing though, where you say you'e not sure which profile is correct: neither am I, now! It's possible that the Isinglass drawing may help determine the correct roof shape.

[Chas Levin]

Ok, here's a series of comparisons of some of the roof sections we've been discussing.

 

First, just for the sake of completeness, the 51L LNWR 57' carriage cove roof from Wizard that @Jol Wilkinson mentioned, which I bought ages ago for an unrelated project. Here it is on top of the Nu-Cast roof and I'd say it's clearly not usable for this project. It's too flat and even if it were bent to a more domed shape, it would also be too narrow, given that you'd have to lose those sharply angled sides:

 

 

And just out of interest, here's that LNWR roof next to the MJT 2971 Gresley Elliptical one:

 

 

Caught between two stools with the Sentinel, I'd say: the LNWR curve is too shallow, the Gresley and the MJT BR Mk1) too domed!

 

So, what's the difference between the two MJT ones, 2970 BR Mk1 and 2971 Gresley Elliptical? Here's a photo, 2970 BR Mk1 on the left:

 

 

The cantrail / gutter moulded line is very obviously in a different place and the ends or edges of the curves look different (the BR Mk1 is a tighter radius curve to my eye), but they actually look more similar than I'd expected, so I tried matching them end to end, initially with both on the same level, again with 2970 BR on the left:

 

 

Not great, but putting something under the 2971 Gresley piece on the right, raising the top of the curve to the same level as the 2970 piece, produces a better looking match:

 

 

It actually looks a poorer match in the photos than in real life; I had to run my finger over the join because it seemed to be a closer match than I'd expected and it really is a very close match. Here they are again, one on top of the other and viewed this way, you'd never think they'd match so closely end to end (2970 BR is the one on top in this view):

 

 

All very interesting, but where does that leave us with the Sentinel roof? Well, here's an end-to-end comparison of the MJT 2970 BR with the Nu-Cast roof and I've raised the level of the Nu-Cast roof slightly by putting something underneath it, so that the outer curve points are level with the corresponding points of the MJT piece - hopefully the picture makes that clearer:

 

 

 

Now, looking at those photos, I think this could work, especially if it's the case that the Nu-Cast roof is in fact a tiny bit too flat.

I'm not too keen to start filing the aluminium roof top for fear of losing the clean, even shape, but as @34016 suggests, a tiny amount of flattening, along with some filing away at the lower edges, might produce a pretty good match.

 

There's also the question of the ends: I'd like to use the ends of the castings but fixing whitemetal securely to aluminium sounds like a bit of challenge... 🤔

 

By the way, if anyone's curious to see some other comparison(s) of these roof sections that I haven't shown, please ask and I'll take photos and post them. I did also look at how the Nu-Cast pieces matched the aluminium ones when both were upside-down on a flat surface, but I didn't think that was so informative: happy to be corrected though, if anyone thinks that would provide helpful information.

Edited March 4, 2023 by Chas Levin

[34016]

1 hour ago, Chas Levin said:

Ok, here's a series of comparisons of some of the roof sections we've been discussing.

 

First, just for the sake of completeness, the 51L LNWR 57' carriage cove roof from Wizard that @Jol Wilkinson mentioned, which I bought ages ago for an unrelated project. Here it is on top of the Nu-Cast roof and I'd say it's clearly not usable for this project. It's too flat and even if it were bent to a more domed shape, it would also be too narrow, given that you'd have to lose those sharply angled sides:

 

 

And just out of interest, here's that LNWR roof next to the MJT 2971 Gresley Elliptical one:

 

 

Caught between two stools with the Sentinel, I'd say: the LNWR curve is too shallow, the Gresley and the MJT BR Mk1) too domed!

 

So, what's the difference between the two MJT ones, 2970 BR Mk1 and 2971 Gresley Elliptical? Here's a photo, 2970 BR Mk1 on the left:

 

 

The cantrail / gutter moulded line is very obviously in a different place and the ends or edges of the curves look different (the BR Mk1 is a tighter radius curve to my eye), but they actually look more similar than I'd expected, so I tried matching them end to end, initially with both on the same level, again with 2970 BR on the left:

 

 

Not great, but putting something under the 2971 Gresley piece on the right, raising the top of the curve to the same level as the 2970 piece, produces a better looking match:

 

 

It actually looks a poorer match in the photos than in real life; I had to run my finger over the join because it seemed to be a closer match than I'd expected and it really is a very close match. Here they are again, one on top of the other and viewed this way, you'd never think they'd match so closely end to end (2970 BR is the one on top in this view):

 

 

All very interesting, but where does that leave us with the Sentinel roof? Well, here's an end-to-end comparison of the MJT 2970 BR with the Nu-Cast roof and I've raised the level of the Nu-Cast roof slightly by putting something underneath it, so that the outer curve points are level with the corresponding points of the MJT piece - hopefully the picture makes that clearer:

 

 

 

Now, looking at those photos, I think this could work, especially if it's the case that the Nu-Cast roof is in fact a tiny bit too flat.

I'm not too keen to start filing the aluminium roof top for fear of losing the clean, even shape, but as @34016 suggests, a tiny amount of flattening, along with some filing away at the lower edges, might produce a pretty good match.

 

There's also the question of the ends: I'd like to use the ends of the castings but fixing whitemetal securely to aluminium sounds like a bit of challenge... 🤔

 

By the way, if anyone's curious to see some other comparison(s) of these roof sections that I haven't shown, please ask and I'll take photos and post them. I did also look at how the Nu-Cast pieces matched the aluminium ones when both were upside-down on a flat surface, but I didn't think that was so informative: happy to be corrected though, if anyone thinks that would provide helpful information.

I have the isinglass drawing of the dia 96/97 which shows the roof is clearly quite 'domed'. Not sure why I didn't think of it earlier.

[Chas Levin]

50 minutes ago, 34016 said:

I have the isinglass drawing of the dia 96/97 which shows the roof is clearly quite 'domed'. Not sure why I didn't think of it earlier.

 

Wow - thanks for posting and yes, it certainly does show it's domed, doesn't it?

Well, I never like criticising other peoples' products but I have to say I think the Nu-Cast roof is actually wrongly shaped. The roof as shown on that drawing is far more domed.

It confirms what I'd also begun to think from prototype photos, but the trouble there is that I haven't yet found a prototype photo that's truly head-on - they're always 3/4 views, or side-on. That being said, even some of the 3/4 views make the roof shape pretty clear - how about this one from the LNER Magazine for November 1936:

 

I know there are end-on drawings in the Yeadon volume I have, but they're not to scale so I'd not been looking at them too closely pending ordering the Isinglass. Comparing them now, it's equally obvious there too.

 

I think that means that one or other of the aluminium pieces will do very nicely!

Edited March 4, 2023 by Chas Levin

[jwealleans]

On 28/02/2023 at 21:28, Chas Levin said:

Seat colour was Phoenix Precision Mahogany for the wooden interior and a sort of stone colour for the fabric, mainly at the customer's behest (and I had already thought that scheme very attractive so unless I can find contrary information on the prototype colours, I may well go with that too).

 

There was a thread on these with an interior photo.   Seat fabric was red as I recall.   Seats were of the tram variety with reversible backs.   I've bought some of the same ones as 34016 used as I thought they were the closest I've seen.  i didn't fit an interior to mine when I built it as I was never happy with the options on offer.

Edited March 5, 2023 by jwealleans

[Chas Levin]

1 minute ago, jwealleans said:

 

There was a thread on these with an interior photo.   Seat fabris was red as I recall.   Seats were of the tram variety with reversible backs.   I've bought some of the same ones as 34016 used as I thought they were the closest I've seen.  i didn't fit an interior to mine when I built it as I was never happy with the options on offer.

Do you mean an interior photo in colour Jonathan? That would be very interesting - did it also show what colour the interior walls were? I'd have assumed they were cream but I know some have modelled them in darker wood colour.

I agree that the tramway ones 34016 used look very similar to photos but I wasn't so keen on the additional weight of the whitemetal so I was thinking about making some up from plastic, or modifying some readymade ones.

Miles Glenn mentioned using seats from Southern Pride but looking on their site, they don't seem to have pictures of what each of their quite extensive range of different types seats looks like, so I've emailed to ask their advice.

I'm not familiar with the general type of seats you mention, 'the tram variety with reversible backs' and googling so far keeps bringing up benches rather than seats: can you point me at a photo of the type please?

[manna]

G'Day Chas

 

The seats on the Sentinels had a tubular frame, the back was double sided and the seat part would slide through under the back part when you moved the back. Looked a bit like these.

 

The Sentinel in the background was made out of a Hornby LNER Brake 3rd.

 

manna

[jwealleans]

16 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Do you mean an interior photo in colour

 

No such luck, no.   It showed the length of the interior but in black and white.    I did try it on some of those online photo colourisers to get a general idea and they brought out the woodwork as very dark and the seating as a generally reddish colour.   Someone did say the fabric was red but i can't remember who or what their source was.  It would be consistent with third class seating at the time these were ordered.   Does the LNER magazine have anything to say about the interior finish?

 

 

Edited March 5, 2023 by jwealleans

[Chas Levin]

10 hours ago, manna said:

G'Day Chas

 

The seats on the Sentinels had a tubular frame, the back was double sided and the seat part would slide through under the back part when you moved the back. Looked a bit like these.

 

The Sentinel in the background was made out of a Hornby LNER Brake 3rd.

 

manna

G'Day Terry,

 

Thank you, that makes it a bit clearer and the photos give me something to aim at too. I'm assuming they're entirely built of plastic card and on a plastic card base? They look the part very well - as does the railcar in the background: I'd never have guessed it came from a Hornby donor, but after reading that I looked again at the roof and that does bear some resemblance...

 

I'm curious now about the angle of the seat backs: you have them at quite a steep angle there, where the tram seats 34016 is using have more vertical backs: is that from prototype info? I have aerial view plans of the seating in the Yeadon volume that show the positions of the seats, but the side views have the outer vehicle sides filled in, so you don't see the seat backs in profile. And in prototype photos all you see are the very tops of the seat backs, not enough to judge the angle - at least, not that I've found so far though I'll have another look through.

 

[Chas Levin]

8 hours ago, jwealleans said:

No such luck, no.   It showed the length of the interior but in black and white.    I did try it on some of those online photo colourisers to get a general idea and they brought out the woodwork as very dark and the seating as a generally reddish colour.   Someone did say the fabric was red but i can't remember who or what their source was.  It would be consistent with third class seating at the time these were ordered.   Does the LNER magazine have anything to say about the interior finish?

 

Thanks for clarifying Jonathan: red (or reddish tinged) certainly sounds in keeping with the times and looks good (I think the rusty red look of manna's seats for instance looks very good) so I'll probably go with something like that.

Good question about the LNER Magazine but in a word, no: the entire series of 17 pages running between March and August 1938 in the LNER Magazine is primarily focussed on the engineering side of things, the drive unit, the chassis, how everything was constructed and how it all worked and it barely mentions anything else, bar a couple of paragraphs at the start of Part 3 of the series, in the issue for May 5th 1938, where it says:

 

"The exterior of the vehicles is finished in the
colour scheme for L.N.E.R. steam rail cars, and the
interior of the vehicles is of finished and polished
wood, the roof panels being of patent composition
and painted in white. The passenger saloon, which
is the major portion of the interior of the vehicle
provides seating accommodation for 59 passengers
and hand straps are provided for 20 more passengers'
Well-sprung reversible seats are provided covered
with material which is standard for all passenger
stock. Fixed lights with curtains are provided at
each side of the interior with small hinged fan-
lights, the upper portions of the lights at the ends
of the cars being arranged to open outwards.
The partition between the saloon end of the driver's
compartment and the passenger compartment is
also glazed, thus giving the passengers an excellent
view.
The interior of the coach is provided with
20-volt lighting equipment, the accumulators being
situated underneath the floor of the vehicle, and
charged by an axle-driven dynamo."

 

While it doesn't answer the seat colour question it has answered my other question about the colour of the interior walls - finished and polished wood, apparently: thanks for suggesting looking there Jonathan, I hadn't thought of that!

 

For anyone unfamiliar with the LNER Magazine articles on these railcars, scans of the whole series of articles are on the RMWeb Sentinel livery thread here:

 

[Chas Levin]

Some work done on the detailing parts, on the basis that anything done now won't need to be done later. In the photo below, clockwise from top left, a Roxey etch to replace the Nu-Cast whitemetal vee hangers and brake levers; 3D printed curtains to replace the ones printed on the glazing strips supplied (though whether these particular ones can be successfully trimmed to look right remains to be seen); turned brass vac pipes, steam pipes and torpedo roof vents from Markits; a collection of left-overs, offcuts and scrap etch as a start towards replacing the whitemetal steps (which won't be made until I see how they're going to attach to the chassis and/or bogies); and some Nu-Cast whitemetal parts from the kit that I'll keep and use - brake cylinders, brake and control columns and dynamo:

 

 

The next photo is of Nu-Cast whitemetal parts that will need to have replacements made:

 

 

For the chimney, I have some suitable diameter brass tube on order (I lack a lathe so I cannot follow @34016's beautifully made example with a turned one of my own) and I plan to produce the collar just under the rim by first drilling and anchoring a piece of brass wire, then wrapping and soldering it securely round the tube near one end, then filing down the soldered wire into a suitable profile.

 

For the buffers, I'm a little unsure. This is what's supplied in the Nu-Cast kit:

 

 

I haven't yet found any sharper looking brass ones with similarly sloped bases, the closest I've seen being the Slaters 4913 GWR Square Shank Coach buffers, but they don't have anything like the same degree of slope. I went looking through Yeadon to see whether there was much variation in fitted buffers and found a serious lack of views of the buffers from angles showing the shape of the bases. The only photo with useful info is of railcar 220 Defence: here's a crop, and it shows bases that look to my eye rather less sloped than the Nu-Cast castings and actually quite close to the Slaters GWR ones:

 

 

(This is the 'car fresh and new, November 1932 - note the reflection of the rails in the shiny green paintwork!).

 

Whether I stick with the Nu-Cast ones or use the Slaters or another brass set, I'd also like to fit sprung steel heads, which might be easier to do to whitemetal bodies than brass, so some research on available shapes and sizes is in order...

 

And finally, the whistle - here's a cropped photo showing one of the prototypes, followed by a photo of the Nu-Cast whitemetal version next to the best match in turned brass I've found so far, a Markits Midland S&DJR one (but don't tell anyone it's the wrong railway company!):

 

 

[manna]

G'Day Chas

 

Yes all the seating is plastic, looks OK through the window

 

 The seats lock into a curved block on the floor, probably only move 25/30 degrees from vertical, so look a bit upright.

 

I have two other pics in the inside of a Sentinel railcar, one is looking through the cab, the other shows the drive under the floor in the brake van area and part of the passenger compartment seating.

 

manna