How was domestic coal handled at at stations on the North Cornwall Railway?

[mikesvirginstow2]

I am modelling a station "along the Withered Arm" towards the Halwill end of the line. It is called Virginstow and has features of many of the stations on the NCR, in particular, but not exclusively, Ashwater. I am now in the process of detailing the goods yard, which has a goods shed, loading dock and a corrugated stores building  belonging to Thomas Oak and Son.

 

 

Members of the forum have helped me with information along the way, about signal boxes, buildings, etc, so please can I call upon your expertise again.......

 

 

From my research, I have found that these NCR stations' goods yards did not have the traditional sleeper built, or indeed any other type of coal staiths, - complete with a Coal Merchant.

According to the tables in "Branch Line to Padstow" most had some domestic coal traffic. From personal knowledge I know this would be true - in the 50s and early 60s, my Dad used to buy bagged coal from West Devon and North Cornwall Farmers in Holsworthy (Bude branch) and the other farmers' merchants in the area would have all sold bagged coal - eg Thomas Oak, Troods, etc. I also found a reference to "a coal store" at Tresmeer, but no details.

 In my world, Virginstow would have handled about one 16 tonne wagon load every 1 to 2 weeks on average. (In my world Virginstow is a little bigger and more important than in reality!!)

 

My question is - how would this coal have been handled in the goods yard? Would it have been bagged direct from the wagon/floor by the likes of Thomas Oak, or would the merchants have bought it in ready bagged, similar to the bagged fertiliser traffic. If ready bagged, how would it have been transported to the station -- in 16t, or smaller, open wagons, depending on demand?

 

I look forward to some help and would like to thank in advance anyone who can share some knowledge with me.

 

Best regards

Mike 

[Fat Controller]

I've not heard of collieries sending out coal pre-bagged until the 1990s, when Tower sent some out. I do wonder if coal would have received by rail, as a lot of coal for North Cornwall and North Devon was brought in by coasting vessels from South Wales (it's how one side of my mother's family ended up in Burry Port..)

[The Stationmaster]

The most readily available figures I could fid are for 1936 and they showed a wide disparity between stations for received coal traffic varying between less than 400 tons p.a. for a couple up to 2,400 tons at one place.  I would think taht at small station such as you are modelling in a predominantly country area you are looking at the lower end of the scale with no local industrial users such as a gas works or creamery.   Don't forget that for many domestic users coal purchase was very seasonal so arriving wagons would not be at a steady rate but would vary in number per week over the year/. all coal would come loose in 16ton mineral wagons.  

 

You can reckon somewhere between 8 and 9 tons of coal to a loaded 16 ton wagon dependng on the type and grading size of the coal.

[MarcD]

There was a coal factor based in Oakhampton I want to say he was called Gunn & co and Powsides have transfers.

Marc

[TheSignalEngineer]

33 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

You can reckon somewhere between 8 and 9 tons of coal to a loaded 16 ton wagon dependng on the type and grading size of the coal.

From my occasional holiday work for a coal office managed by a relative c1961-65 around 8 tons per wagon was fairly common.

Bagging coal was done straight from the wagon unless it was for stock when it would be shovelled out onto the lorry then off onto the stacks at the side of the office. It never came pre-bagged.

[Gwiwer]

Coal arrived loose in the wagons and was bagged on site by the local merchant.  Usually by the hard-but-trusted method of shovelling it from the wagon by hand into sacks on the ground.  Such small quantities as we are considering here would not have justified a crane.

[MarcD]

 

Don't know how long they were in business or were they delivered to. Photo is from the Powsides website. There are two photos of his wagon first one say coal merchants dated 1914 (No.1) and the second without the business description (as shown No.6) dated dated 1923. and they were listed in a guide to Okehampton produced in 1950. presumably by 1950 coal would be arriving in a whole mix of wagons.

 

There are a lot of coal factors based in Exeter importing through places like Exemouth and Topsham so they may have supplied north devon and cornwall

 

Marc

[Gwiwer]

1 hour ago, Furness Wagon said:

 

Don't know how long they were in business or were they delivered to. Photo is from the Powsides website. There are two photos of his wagon first one say coal merchants dated 1914 (No.1) and the second without the business description (as shown No.6) dated dated 1923. and they were listed in a guide to Okehampton produced in 1950. presumably by 1950 coal would be arriving in a whole mix of wagons.

 

There are a lot of coal factors based in Exeter importing through places like Exemouth and Topsham so they may have supplied north devon and cornwall

 

Marc

Coal also arrived at Bideford and could have reached North Cornwall via Halwill either through Meeth or the long way round via Okehampton.  Coal also arrived at Fremington Quay but was exclusively for power station use there to the best of my knowledge.  

[Compound2632]

10 hours ago, mikesvirginstow2 said:

From my research, I have found that these NCR stations' goods yards did not have the traditional sleeper built, or indeed any other type of coal staiths, - complete with a Coal Merchant.

 

 

My impression is that those are a modellers' tradition, rather rarer on the prototype than on layouts. Did any other LSWR stations in the far south-west have them? Lack of them is no evidence for lack of coal traffic.

 

Hundreds of miles away but on equally rustic line, here's some photos of coal being unloaded at Claverdon. The use of the loading bank is perhaps a little unusual - straight into a cart backed up to the wagon on an ordinary siding would, I think, be more usual.

[Nick Holliday]

8 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

Coal also arrived at Bideford and could have reached North Cornwall via Halwill either through Meeth or the long way round via Okehampton.  Coal also arrived at Fremington Quay but was exclusively for power station use there to the best of my knowledge.  

I believe that the Southern/LSWR also brought in loco coal at Fremington Quay, with a number of coal wagons, including some ex-LBSC, allocated to the task.

[mikesvirginstow2]

Chaps - first of all, thanks for all the replies and information - learned some stuff here. 

Loved the photos of Claverdon, and I had forgotten to factor in the lowish density of coal, so will probably increase the potential average number of wagon loads arriving to 1 a week, working on annual tonnage of about 450 tonnes at 8 tonnes a wagon. Dad (and many other farmers) used to buy their coal in summer - it was cheaper! - so cost would have smoothed flows a little over the year.....

 

The name Gunn rings a bell in my memory - maybe Gunns bagged coal and sold it on to  General/Agricultural merchants in the area ?? Although it must have been transported by rail, otherwise it would not have been recorded in the tables in "Branchline to Padstow"?

 

"Coal stands" are mentioned at Holsworthy in David Wroe's Bude book. I think I might do a heap of coal on the ground next to a half empty wagon and some bagged coal adjacent, or something along those lines - although I still can't imagine Thomas Oke / WD&NC staff doing much shovelling and bagging in 1960.

I don't believe there were any dedicated Coal Merchants at stations along the lines of the Withered Arm, except possibly at Launceston (and Wadebridge) maybe.

 

Thanks again for the info - brilliant help and food for thought....

 

Best Regards

 

Mike

[2ManySpams]

Iirc coal arrived by the wagon load. The local trader would arrive and put in sacks straight from the wagon. A little cameo could have a frame to hold the bags and a set of scales. 

 

I understand that if the trader didn't unload the wagon within a certain timeframe they were charged extra for storage in the wagon.

 

We initially made the same mistake on Treneglos and assumed that all stations had sleeper coal staithes. Ours was removed and replaced with an additional provender store.

[Stubby47]

8 minutes ago, 2ManySpams said:

Iirc coal arrived by the wagon load. The local trader would arrive and put in sacks straight from the wagon. A little cameo could have a frame to hold the bags and a set of scales. 

 

I understand that if the trader didn't unload the wagon within a certain timeframe they were charged extra for storage in the wagon.

 

We initially made the same mistake on Pencarrow and assumed that all stations had sleeper coal staithes. Ours was removed and replaced with an additional provender store.

 

Pencarrow ? or Treneglos ?

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, 2ManySpams said:

I understand that if the trader didn't unload the wagon within a certain timeframe they were charged extra for storage in the wagon.

 The demurrage charge was not so much a storage charge as a fine for holding onto the wagon for too long or occupying the siding space - if the wagon was a railway company wagon, then it was for holding on to the wagon, if it was the merchant's, factor's, or colliery's wagon, then for taking up the siding space. Post-nationalisation, only the former applied, in general. That's my understanding, anyway.

[Nick Holliday]

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 The demurrage charge was not so much a storage charge as a fine for holding onto the wagon for too long or occupying the siding space - if the wagon was a railway company wagon, then it was for holding on to the wagon, if it was the merchant's, factor's, or colliery's wagon, then for taking up the siding space. Post-nationalisation, only the former applied, in general. That's my understanding, anyway.

I think there were two different charges if a wagon wasn't unloaded within the expected time. Demurrage usually only applies to the wagon, so would be paid to whoever owned or supplied the vehicle, with a separate siding charge, payable to the railway company. So a Private Trader who had his own wagons would only pay the siding charge, others would have to pay both, although there might have been different time parameters for each before charges came into effect. I suppose, post-nationalisation, BR became the owners of both the wagons and the sidings, so perhaps a single combined charge, although there were still privately owned wagons around, so the siding charge alone might still be applicable..

[2ManySpams]

3 hours ago, Stubby47 said:

 

Pencarrow ? or Treneglos ?

 

Corrected

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On ‎07‎/‎06‎/‎2020 at 13:35, Fat Controller said:

... a lot of coal for North Cornwall and North Devon was brought in by coasting vessels from South Wales (it's how one side of my mother's family ended up in Burry Port..)

Among my wife's extended family a late member had connections in the coasting trade between South Wales and North Devon and Cornwall, and a lot of their traffic was Welsh coal into ports such as Bideford, where canal works and a tide lock are much in evidence (seen on my once ever visit a couple of years past, enhanced by most excellent fish and chips). Sadly I only learned of this background in their family at the funeral...

[Fat Controller]

15 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Among my wife's extended family a late member had connections in the coasting trade between South Wales and North Devon and Cornwall, and a lot of their traffic was Welsh coal into ports such as Bideford, where canal works and a tide lock are much in evidence (seen on my once ever visit a couple of years past, enhanced by most excellent fish and chips). Sadly I only learned of this background in their family at the funeral...

It's the tragedy of this sort of thing that you often hear about it at the funeral at second-hand. 

 

[Nearholmer]

Another thing to ponder is that some merchants stock-piled for the winter at their own premises, away from the railway, which might be more secure and cheaper, something I've gone on about in another thread so won't repeat here.

 

I will repeat a good rule of thumb for consumption though: 1cwt per week per household in winter, which averages neatly across poor households (barely enough to keep one room warm) and rich households (big houses with many rooms heated, servants to tend numerous grates, profligate users). How many households are served by Virginstow?

[mikesvirginstow2]

Who would have thought that domestic coal could be so interesting!! I have found that the research for my railway has been one of the most interesting and enjoyable facets of the project.

(Unfortunately, it can also be a distraction from doing any actual modelling at times! 2ManySpams had more or less confirmed the way to go for me, when up pops Nearholmer to send me off on another train of thought, to another thread and then to Britain from the air. Another morning gone  - no cabbages planted in the retired signalman's garden!! Fascinating stuff though)

 

Virginstow, although a real place, has developed differently in my world, to what actually happened in fact ( it never had a station for instance, let alone a connection / junction with the GWR), but the village and surrounding population served is assumed - or can be - around 800 to 1000 - which is not far off 1 to 2 wagons a week by your calculations Nearholmer. Near enough for the purposes of detailing my goods yard. However, It has helped to and forced me to, fill in a bit more of the story of my model world.

 

I shall continue to investigate the operations of the Agricultural / general merchants in the area.

thanks again, all, for your help

 

Mike

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 10/06/2020 at 12:59, mikesvirginstow2 said:

although I still can't imagine Thomas Oke / WD&NC staff doing much shovelling and bagging in 1960.

We still shovelled from the wagons in the suburban coal yard in 1965. No such luxury as a hopper filled by a mechanical shovel or conveyor. That only really came on with remaining traffic being transferred to coal concentration depots and a lot of local merchants disappearing.

[mikesvirginstow2]

39 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

We still shovelled from the wagons in the suburban coal yard in 1965. No such luxury as a hopper filled by a mechanical shovel or conveyor. That only really came on with remaining traffic being transferred to coal concentration depots and a lot of local merchants disappearing.

Even less likely to have mechanical assistance in a small rural  (back of beyond) goods yard - we didn't have electricity or mains water on our farm near Holsworthy in 1959!!

 

I was thinking more about the activities of the type of Agricultural/feed/fertiliser/ builders Merchants like WD&NC or Thomas Oke, who brought stuff in, including coal I believe, and then delivered it out to customers. I was alluding to them being more "storekeepers" than shovellers! 

More digging to do now I have got interested!!

 

 

[Oldddudders]

On 10/06/2020 at 18:27, Fat Controller said:

It's the tragedy of this sort of thing that you often hear about it at the funeral at second-hand. 

 

Apologies to our host on this thread for drift - but at least I am in the throes of building something based upon Halwill! - but how right you are Brian.

 

When I went to work in the Divisional Managers's Office, Central Division, in 1967, I was often a customer in the Despatch & Reprographic office.  Sitting in the corner was an old boy called Jack who operated a cheap and nasty repro system, and I was a regular customer. The paper went through  a tray with "jungle juice" (Jack's term) to procure the image. A couple of years later there was, on a Divisional Circular, an obituary for H M Madgwick, who it was noted had until recently worked in the Despatch Office. H M Madgwick's LBSCR images are legendary. If only I'd known....

[doilum]

On 10/06/2020 at 17:46, Nearholmer said:

Another thing to ponder is that some merchants stock-piled for the winter at their own premises, away from the railway, which might be more secure and cheaper, something I've gone on about in another thread so won't repeat here.

 

I will repeat a good rule of thumb for consumption though: 1cwt per week per household in winter, which averages neatly across poor households (barely enough to keep one room warm) and rich households (big houses with many rooms heated, servants to tend numerous grates, profligate users). How many households are served by Virginstow?

Back in the day the fire would be needed all year round as the only means of cooking and warming water. The kitchen would be warmest!

The miners concession was a ton each month but that was more than ample as I have described elsewhere.

[Nearholmer]

God Lord! My father would have had to win the pools to even consider allowing us to get through a ton of coal in a month - a winter maybe, but not a month. I don't have any idea how much 1cwt of coal cost in the deep south, a long way from any mines, but it was considered to be "a lot of money" in our house.