More model ideas

[Wickham Green too]

Some of us are just happy not to have any gimmicks ......... and would be quite happy not to have to subsidise the design that enables them to be fitted for others.

[adb968008]

17 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

 

 

If things were equal the AM4 AM5 AM8 and 504 family, along with the flat fronted AM2s AM7s and 501s would be developed.  Really not sure whether the "Bury" cab is identical to the AM4, AM5 and AM8, and that it is just the central windscreen which makes them look different. The problem has been that model designers have struggled to get the two windscreens correct on two windscreen models - class 50s being a classic. 
 

 

i spent so much of my youth around 504s it hurt… well bounced.

 

The AM units and 504 are based around the BRStd 64’ suburban mark 1, much like the EPB/HAP/20x units.

 

indeed the EPB makes a very good starting point in a conversion, as does Replicas mk1’s.

 

There are different footboards, lighting, interiors, cab, roof, window, frame layouts , bogies all vary between the units, but nothing a set of tooling slides in a tooling could fix… they are essentially motorised mk1 suburban coaches.

 

A clever approach to tooling could see them all made, with just as much variety as there are 37’s.  
 

Cost and volume of sales however is something else.

 

 

17 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

As was said upthread, the 507 508 and 313 have pretty much the same end cars, so development costs theoretically decrease. The AM4 however is four different vehicles - eight if you want to produce 001-015 as well as 016-045 with different window arrangements.   
 

 

Pep units are much closer than AM units, but the York 1980’s body is even closer… spot the difference between a 455/9 trailer and a 150/2 trailer or a 317/6 or 318 trailer (in original form)… were talking minimal differences, except lifetime mods.

 

Similarly centre cars arent that far apart either, thats probably why 150001 & 2 survived so long as 3 car units.. the spares are standard even if the units are prototypes.

 

 

1 hour ago, reddragon said:

I did reply to this before. The variations within classes over time are quite notable as are unit variations within class. Modelling them would be a nightmare especially as they no longer exist to scan bar the 303/309s

 

A class 504 exists, 64’ Suburbans exist, a class 308 trailer exists… similarly is an EPB, numerous 205’s… so the vital dimensions, layouts etc  are all possible. 

 

Thats more than a GCR A5, for instance, which was just released rtr, and aiui was entirely designed in China, largely from photos and measurements, without any UK research aids.

 

Lets also not forget Hornby just made an LMS Coronation scot set, from just one very heavily modified and pretty unique to the train, remaining coach…. Then they are doing the LNER set based off just a surviving Observation car !

 

Modelling them I think wouldnt be that hard at all, and lets not forget 57’ suburbans are already in development.
 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by adb968008

[97406]

1 minute ago, adb968008 said:

 

i spent so much of my youth around 504s it hurt… well bounced.

 

The AM units and 504 are based around the BRStd 64’ suburban mark 1, much like the EPB/HAP/20x units.

 

indeed the EPB makes a very good starting point in a conversion, as does Replicas mk1’s.

 

There are different footboards, lighting, interiors, cab, roof, window, frame layouts , bogies all vary between the units, but nothing a set of tooling slides in a tooling could fix… they are essentially motorised mk1 suburban coaches.

 

A clever approach to tooling could see them all made, with just as much variety as there are 37’s.  
 

Cost and volume of sales however is something else.

 

 

 

Pep units are much closer than AM units, but the York 1980’s body is even closer… spot the difference between a 455/9 trailer and a 150/2 trailer or a 317/6 or 318 trailer (in original form)… were talking minimal differences, except lifetime mods.

 

Similarly centre cars arent that far apart either, thats probably why 150001 & 2 survived so long as 3 car units.. the spares are standard even if the units are prototypes.

 

 

 

A class 504 exists, 64’ Suburbans exist, a class 308 trailer exists… similarly is an EPB, numerous 205’s… so the vital dimensions are all possible. 

 

Thats more than a GCR A5, for instance, which was just released rtr, and aiui was entirely designed in China, largely from photos and measurements, without any UK research aids.

 

Modelling them I think wouldnt be that hard at all, and lets not forget 57’ suburbans are already in development.
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I made a start on one during lockdown using Replica suburban bodyshells and DC Kits cab fronts. I’m not 100% happy with the windscreens, but they match better than on the original cab front moulding and I still have some spare ends. One day I may see if I can measure one of the surviving ones up and get an etch done.

 

 

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

 

I'd rather have an affordable one though if that meant it couldn't have all the gimmicks . Better that than none at all .

Me too.

 

if someone made them as unmotorised, unlit coaches, with simple NEM couplings, priced at £50-60 a coach and left me to do the rest i’d be ok with it.... but then I am extreme !!!

I do think units are possible, and whilst they may cost more than a loco to design and produce.. I do think were approaching the point of diminishing revenue returns in constant re-tooling of repeat locos.

 

To me the pincers are closing.. whats left in modern locos to retool.. 08, 26/27/33/35/40/42/52/58/70 .. tbh I dont fancy any of that lot, much myself.

 

After that your into more obscure and early exit diesels like 14/15/17 etc..

 

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by adb968008

[GordonC]

8 minutes ago, 97406 said:

 

 

I made a start on one during lockdown using Replica suburban bodyshells and DC Kits cab fronts. I’m not 100% happy with the windscreens, but they match better than on the original cab front moulding and I still have some spare ends. One day I may see if I can measure one of the surviving ones up and get an etch done.

 

 

 

That looks pretty good, are the windscreens perhaps a little straight? I thought they looked like they sloped downwards away from the centre on the 304s (or was it from the front being slightly raked backwards?) and the tail light moulding looks a little heavy, but with a bit of weathering around the cable connections it looks a great start!!

 

 

 

[97406]

18 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

That looks pretty good, are the windscreens perhaps a little straight? I thought they looked like they sloped downwards away from the centre on the 304s (or was it from the front being slightly raked backwards?) and the tail light moulding looks a little heavy, but with a bit of weathering around the cable connections it looks a great start!!

 

 

 

 

Thanks. I think the cab windscreens may actually be square and tilted at a slight angle. The ones on mine are slightly rectangular which isn't right, but a lot of the shape came down to filing each side to match and I definitely kept fettling for a little too long.

 

Here's an example of the DC Kits ends in their original form from the excellent P4 New Street - not quite symmetrical

 

Here's an account of some improvements made: https://p4newstreet.com/dinosaur-diversion/

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by 97406

[WCML100]

7 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

 

So you don't think Bachmann's Desiro 350 / 450 counts?

The 350/450 is very good model, especially when it was released - I actually had several of them. 
 

but times have moved on and i wouldnt say it is to ‘todays’ standards. If the Accurascales 92 is anything to go by with the lowering and raising panto arms, lighting functions etc… I for one would love to see a multiple unit of any kind get in to that bracket of detail! 

Edited March 13, 2023 by WCML100

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

...… spot the difference between a 455/9 trailer and a 150/2 trailer or a 317/6 or 318 trailer (in original form)… ...

... not to mention the other member of the family : - 

 

Southall : 31/3/83

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

... not to mention the other member of the family : - 

 

Southall : 31/3/83

The crazy thing is you can still ride on 2/3rds of this unit today.

 

The DTSO will be arriving in Guildford at 2332.

The TSO has arrived in Dorking at 2314.

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by adb968008

[Wickham Green too]

..... of course there IS one more variant of above-floor diesel unit in this family .... and obviously designed to come in three-packs : - 

York Road : 13/5/91

Edited March 14, 2023 by Wickham Green too

[Chilly]

I think a brake/guard van would be a useful addition to the range in view of the wagons etc that they have produced and are producing 🤔

Edited March 14, 2023 by Chilly

[Charlie]

On 13/03/2023 at 18:02, adb968008 said:

Snip...

 

To me the pincers are closing.. whats left in modern locos to retool.. 08, 26/27/33/35/40/42/52/58/70 .. tbh I dont fancy any of that lot, much myself.....Snip

 

 

 

What's wrong with Hornby's 08, Dapol's 52 or Bachmann's 70? (Or did you mean the old electric class 70?)

 

They may have been mentioned, but the classes 81-84 have not had a sniff of interest so could they be possibilities? I believe the 85 is supposed to have done better than expected.

As for MU's, we haven't had a 155 up to modern standards, with the possibility of a 153 on the back of that. Plus there's the Networker family as well. Or for something a little different/quirky, maybe the 139, though that has a really restricted interest group I suspect.

 

If you want something steam wise, pre-grouping always seems to sell well ;)

[Delta_Who]

14 minutes ago, Charlie said:

 

What's wrong with Hornby's 08

 

To me, not a whole lot vastly wrong with either the Hornby/Bachmann 08. But...

 

- No marker lights on either version

- I don't believe either manufacturer offers next18 or 21/plux decoders

- On the Hornby one in particular, the rods are so thin and have so little tension, they flex quite prominently (see video below)
- 08s... like the 66... are the gift that keeps on giving. With so many variants and liveries, it's only inevitable that someone will want a piece of that.

- The price on both has become a bit... eye raising. It's less material cost, so I suppose the only real area that could justify £150-£190 range is increased labor costs? Maybe there is a belief that Accurascale could do it cheaper? (that's not a declaration before someone foam-mouthed claims misinformation :P)

 

 

[frobisher]

3 minutes ago, Charlie said:

What's wrong with Hornby's 08, Dapol's 52 or Bachmann's 70? (Or did you mean the old electric class 70?)

 

There's probably room for another 08/09, because they will always sell.  But do a 13 at the same time, THAT will sell (and if you were to ever produce a model with remote uncoupling built in, that's your bunny).  But also properly tool up some of the oddballs, notably the buckeye equipped ones used for shunting HSTs, and the lower cabbed Welsh ones.

 

The 70 has ended up being somewhat niche, I don't think there's real opportunity there at all.

 

People will buy a "definitive" Western and Dapol have set the benchmark to better there, but there is lower hanging fruit out there.

 

The 81-84 as you said (81 would be best first), the long neglected 06 and various MUs.

 

I suspect a winner would be the HST, but approaching it first from the prototype pair and rolling stock.  This way, you get a PC with a working front coupler sorted from day one (Hornby still seem resistant to this, despite the popularity of the buffer fitted PCs), you get a proper stab at loco hauled MK3s from near the start, and presumably the ability to do a deal with the NRM...

[frobisher]

9 minutes ago, Delta_Who said:

- The price on both has become a bit... eye raising. It's less material cost, so I suppose the only real area that could justify £150-£190 range is increased labor costs? Maybe there is a belief that Accurascale could do it cheaper? (that's not a declaration before someone foam-mouthed claims misinformation :P)

 

Hornby raised this with the TT 08 as well, it's got a lot of components for a small loco and requires quite a lot of labour input (partially because of nearly the same level of parts as the A1/3/4) putting it above price bracket of their forthcoming 66 in the scale.

 

 

From what's been said by the AS guys, I suspect we'd get one maybe near the price of the Hornby and Bachmann ones, but with all those extra goodies you mentioned.

 

 

 

[Charlie]

I get both your points about the 08/09 and I guess with slide moulding it's also possible to do 10/11/12 from there (though isn't someone doing one of those?) Personally, would love a 13 and I know there's a conversion kit out there, but not all of us are skilled enough to get it to as high a standard as a R-T-R one. I don't know, but I assume upgrading the DCC plug wouldn't be that labour intensive. Not so sure what could be done about the coupling rods as people want the finesse from the fine detail rods, but that also means they don't have the robustness as a result. Without knowing what material is used I can't suggest an alternative.

 

Not sure a new HST would have a market just yet with the relatively newly upgraded Hornby one being released, but then I didn't understand Bachman's need to release a new 37 last year either, not that I can afford it or there new 47... :(

 

 

[adb968008]

49 minutes ago, Charlie said:

 

What's wrong with Hornby's 08, Dapol's 52 or Bachmann's 70? (Or did you mean the old electric class 70?)

 

i dont think theres anything wrong with them, which is why I think its disappearing returns. Of course others may think different.

 

I suspect of all that lot, the 08 could sell, as theres oodles of them, and Bachmanns is older, but I think the Hornby one isnt bad, its just tripled in price and theyve not exploited it.

 

 

49 minutes ago, Charlie said:

 

They may have been mentioned, but the classes 81-84 have not had a sniff of interest so could they be possibilities? I believe the 85 is supposed to have done better than expected.

As for MU's, we haven't had a 155 up to modern standards, with the possibility of a 153 on the back of that. Plus there's the Networker family as well. Or for something a little different/quirky, maybe the 139, though that has a really restricted interest group I suspect.

 

If you want something steam wise, pre-grouping always seems to sell well ;)

I’m all for units…

 

Its the future, its the future of the hobby if its to remain relevent to the younger ones.

The manufacturers just have to figure it out, how to make it work financially.

[E100]

I don't mind paying a fair bit for a modern up to date version of the 08. It'd get a lot of use for me releasing locos from their trains and general shunting and be one of my most used locos. I'd also get at least a couple for different era's 

 

An rtr class 13 would probably sell similar to a class 89 that most are buying as a rule 1 i.e. very well if people know it'll be a great model and effectively the definitive one for many many years i.e. from a trusted name (Accurascale / Rapido etc). The 13 would make a great Rails of Sheffield exclusive I reckon.

 

Agree with the auto uncoupling but what standard would that be and would that need locking in at purchase? Tension lock / kadee / magnetic / something new entirely? For me I maintain that my single issue with magnetic couplings is how to uncouple without the hand of God.

[97406]

I’d get a couple of 08s given I have a depot layout.

[frobisher]

11 hours ago, Charlie said:

Not sure a new HST would have a market just yet with the relatively newly upgraded Hornby one being released

 

The HST really should be in the same category as the 47,37 and 08, it's just that it has associated rolling stock which is what has held things back to date.  It's not an easy ask for AS, but if they go down that route it will sell by the bucket load, especially where Hornby haven't quite hit the set of features desired.

[frobisher]

15 minutes ago, E100 said:

Agree with the auto uncoupling but what standard would that be and would that need locking in at purchase? Tension lock / kadee / magnetic / something new entirely? For me I maintain that my single issue with magnetic couplings is how to uncouple without the hand of God.

 

Just spitballing, but perhaps it's something to develop a standard for.  Lots of if's coming, but if you can develop an easy interface near the NEM socket (possibly just two wires?) then there is no reason why you couldn't then develop a suitable Tension lock and/or Kadee compatible and/or electro magnetic (but compatible at least one of the current magnetic close couplers) coupling(s) to plug into the NEM socket and a flylead to the interface. This could then be operated via the DCC decoder or with a wand in a suitable location. It would be down to how much could be built into the couplings.

[GordonC]

I personally dont think there's a lot wrong with the Hornby model, but as with all existing Hornby D+E models especially, the price does seem to be creeping up greatly and if you consider nearly 1000 Class 08s built and another couple of hundred 09s and 10s, wide usage and lifespan and a multitude of liveries there's always got to be potential sales and sales in multiples.

 

Obvious improvements I'd suggest could be lighting and sound fitting (the Hornby one sounds a bit muffled to me with the inward facing speaker, but perhaps they've improved that on later models from the one I have).

[GordonC]

11 hours ago, Charlie said:

Not sure a new HST would have a market just yet with the relatively newly upgraded Hornby one being released, but then I didn't understand Bachman's need to release a new 37 last year either, not that I can afford it or there new 47... :(

 

 

The Hornby HST may have had a polish, but its hardly a big upgrade and unless they drop the price significantly I think they're always leaving a big gap for a competitor.

[Solo]

1 hour ago, frobisher said:

 

The HST really should be in the same category as the 47,37 and 08, it's just that it has associated rolling stock which is what has held things back to date.  It's not an easy ask for AS, but if they go down that route it will sell by the bucket load, especially where Hornby haven't quite hit the set of features desired.

I think “bucket load” may be something of an overstatement: even a ‘mini’ HST set with four or five trailers takes up almost six feet of space on a layout, which for many is more than the entire scenic area.  Plus same length again for a storage road/fiddleyard.  Popular though they are, a 4mm HST model is really only viable for those with big ‘roundys’ or larger exhibition layouts.  And Hornby’s model, at least to my eyes, is much to good to warrant a competitor.

[97406]

Surely the term 'Bucket load' applies to Class 40s....