The Night Mail

[newbryford]

3 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

 

 

Yesterday they had a singer for 'God save the King', but I felt they were rude by not giving the Welsh team and fans the same courtesy by having the singer perform Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau

 

Is that just after your keyboard broke?

[J. S. Bach]

Night Owl from the Piedmont.

[SteveyDee68]

10 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

I used to play in Slaidburn Silver Band - is that the same?

The march of the same name was the very first brass band piece I ever played in a band!

 

@J. S. Bach - I would expect you to play no less than the pipe organ with a user name like that! Interesting instrument, the pipe organ - multiple keyboards including a (foot) pedal board, and enough stop combinations to make operating a double track mainline junction mechanical signal box look like child’s play… there’s a theory that organists have a second brain located at the base of their spine to enable them to play the organ, a little like certain dinosaurs 🦕

 

@Dave Hunt - absolutely agree that the U.K. national anthem is a dirge; I often find myself supporting opposing teams to England just because I like their anthems more!

 

@bbishop - the bassoon, a double reed instrument so immediately bl@@dy difficult to play, and then one of the least attractive (to youngsters and/or their parents) instruments to play and yet one of the most versatile of the orchestral wind instruments (not to mention busy). Shame you were discouraged - there is a national shortage of bassoonists in the U.K.!

 

@Willie Whizz - you were warned! 
 

@New Haven Neil - the development of the five line stave and associated symbols representing pitches raised or lowered by a semitone in Western music developed over centuries (although Guido of Arezzo was the fellah who really kickstarted notation back in the 11th Century) and as a visual language conveys massive amounts of information in a succinct and efficient way that at the same time is still open to individual interpretation. At its heart is the idea of seven pitch names (A-G) which with the use of sharps/flats gives access to the full 12 notes of the chromatic scale over the octave. I think the biggest “problem” with learning to read music notation is (a) the perception that it is “hard” to do, (b) the fact that many (many) commercially successful (pop) performers don’t read music, and (c) that music can actually be made without being able to read notation! Take (c), mix in a bit of (a) and recognise that (b) demonstrates that you can be a successful musician without putting in the effort to learn to read notation and of course the majority of people can’t!

 

Today, YouTube is full of videos showing how to play various songs on various instruments (usually keyboard, guitar or ukulele) without reference to notation (teaching by rote) and apps are available that do the same; but equally there are videos and apps that tie in learning to play the music with reading the notation at the same time. As human beings are predominantly visual in our means of communication, notation should actually be easier than learning, say, to write in proper English! After all, the alphabet has 26 letter names, music notation only seven basic pitch names!

 

Time for bed said Zebedee! 

Edited February 12 by SteveyDee68
Corrected “English” to “U.K.”

[ian@stenochs]

God Save the King is the United Kingdom’s national anthem.  Does England not have its own like all the other nations in the Union?

[newbryford]

7 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

The march of the same name was the very first brass band piece I ever played in a band!

 

 

That was (still is) the band's signature piece.

 

Written by William Rimmer - apparently he was so impressed with the hospitality when he visited the village, he wrote a march in honour of it.

 

This was after my time with the band, but it brings back some great memories that I had playing.

 

 

[bbishop]

The main problem is that I'm tone deaf!

[SteveyDee68]

7 minutes ago, ian@stenochs said:

God Save the King is the United Kingdom’s national anthem.  Does England not have its own like all the other nations in the Union?

You are quite right, it’s the U.K. National Anthem (not the English).

 

I thought “Three Lions” had become the English national anthem? 🫢🤣

 

Steve S

[New Haven Neil]

8 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

At its heart is the idea of seven pitch names (A-G) which with the use of sharps/flats gives access to the full 12 notes of the chromatic scale over the octave.

 

That's the bit that is my problem - why not have 12 notes on the stave, then my brain would accept it!  I understand the theory, my head just doesn't like it.  I'm sure there's a mathematical explanation for the octave, oh and while I'm on, why start with A but always refer to Middle C as a starting point?  On the Pyanner of course.  My head works in curious ways!

 

I really should make another attempt at making music, but is it an old dog thing I wonder, at not-quite 65?

[Northmoor]

9 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

@Dave Hunt - absolutely agree that the U.K. national anthem is a dirge; I often find myself supporting opposing teams to England just because I like their anthems more!

 

@bbishop - the bassoon, a double reed instrument so immediately bl@@dy difficult to play, and then one of the least attractive (to youngsters and/or their parents) instruments to play and yet one of the most versatile of the orchestral wind instruments (not to mention busy). Shame you were discouraged - there is a national shortage of bassoonists in the U.K.!

 

1. It should be Rule Britannia instead, much more uplifting.  Alternatively just follow Billy Connolly's suggestion and keep th words but change the music, the theme tune from The Archers.

2. Whenever the government talks about exceptions to strict immigration rules for people with particular specialist, in-demand skills, I've never heard this mentioned....

[Tony_S]

1 hour ago, New Haven Neil said:

really should make another attempt at making music, but is it an old dog thing I wonder, at not-quite 65?

If you have an iPad there is always GarageBand.

[Hroth]

The other problem with "God Save the King" is that it is played too slowly.  The tune originated as a Galliard, a lively leaping dance.  If anyone attempted to dance a Galliard to the current tempo of GStK, they'd fall over or break a leg!

 

Play it at twice the speed, that's the ticket!

 

[SteveyDee68]

1 hour ago, New Haven Neil said:

 

That's the bit that is my problem - why not have 12 notes on the stave, then my brain would accept it!  I understand the theory, my head just doesn't like it.  I'm sure there's a mathematical explanation for the octave, oh and while I'm on, why start with A but always refer to Middle C as a starting point?  On the Pyanner of course.  My head works in curious ways!

 

I really should make another attempt at making music, but is it an old dog thing I wonder, at not-quite 65?

I seem to remember a brief discussion in the first year of my degree by “Clever Trevor” (so named because he did music analysis with us) about some experiments done in the late 1960s/early ‘70s with non-music-reading children which showed that the human eye/brain could “chunk” graphic  information presented on a five line stave but adding additional lines (as opposed to ledger lines) almost immediately reduced the efficiency.
 

I don’t remember any real details, but do remember it came about due to a question from our year’s resident genius composer Matthew Hind (who had been writing music since the age of 6) along the same lines as yourself. He wrote music you could enjoy listening to, but could also do “experimental” stuff and his question arose I think from some ideas he had about notating the latter. He even wrote something using coloured music notes to represent dynamics (volume) to see if that worked better than traditional ways of notating (it didn’t, but was fun trying it out!)
 

Matt should have won the Composition Prize in our final year, but his music was simply too melodic (he refused to write anything other than what he wanted to hear himself) and it was instead awarded to someone who wrote avant garde “stuff”* that had no melody, discernible aural structure or point (to most listeners) but her efforts “fitted” with the academic leanings of the composition department. (Myself and my best mate similarly wrote “tunes” instead of “plinky plonk bang crash” monstrosities, and were marked down for that!)

 

Yes, there is a mathematical/physics basis to the “octave” which is a fascinating rabbit hole to dive into for a few hours, especially now that some very good YouTube videos explain it all in an entertaining and far less academically dusty manner!

 

You are quite right about the old Joanna’s white keys being confusing starting on A but everything referencing middle C, but that is because “middle C” sits on the ledger line exactly half way between treble and bass clefs!

 

Seen separately, middle C in the treble clef sits on the first ledger line below the stave. Middle C in the bass clef sits on the first ledger line above the stave. Place the treble stave above the bass stave (as for piano) and there is just one ledger line separating the two staves - write a note on that line and in treble clef it is the middle C and in bass clef it is also the middle C … hence the name “Middle C”. (In practice in order to show which hand is playing which notes, notes can be shown on more ledger lines above the bass or below the treble stave that could/should be easier to read written on the appropriate clef!)

 

On a traditional piano, middle C was close to the centrally placed keyhole for locking the lid, so once the pattern of white/black keys was established, it was easy to direct anyone learning to the middle C key - “Look for the keyhole, now look for the closest pair of black keys, and middle C is the white key directly to the left of the lower of the two black keys” (plus, of course, being physically shown that whilst being explained and most people can find a middle C on a piano!) Of course, keyboards don’t have a keyhole … 🫢🤣

 

Steve S

 

 

* Personally, I simply can’t call such assemblages of apparently random notes “music” even if it meets the philosophical criteria of “organised sounds” 

[Compound2632]

19 minutes ago, Hroth said:

The other problem with "God Save the King" is that it is played too slowly.

 

Any massed untrained singing will slow a quick tune down. Far better to start with a slow tune - I've heard a recording of Finnish football fans singing Sibelius' 'Finlandia Hymn' - the effect was overwhelming.

 

Perhaps 'God Save the King' was sung more briskly in the 18th century. It was the inspiration to Haydn for his 'Kaiserlied' (aka 'German, German overalls') - the hymn tune 'Austria' - which has to be, musically, the best national anthem after the 'Marseillaise'. My only disappointment with the latter is that no-one's yet worked out how to use it as a hymn tune!   

[jamie92208]

2 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

You are quite right, it’s the U.K. National Anthem (not the English).

 

I thought “Three Lions” had become the English national anthem? 🫢🤣

 

Steve S

I think that Land of Hope and Glory was used for a while but seems to have been replaced by that dirge. 

 

Jamie

[SteveyDee68]

26 minutes ago, Hroth said:

The other problem with "God Save the King" is that it is played too slowly.  The tune originated as a Galliard, a lively leaping dance.  If anyone attempted to dance a Galliard to the current tempo of GStK, they'd fall over or break a leg!

 

Play it at twice the speed, that's the ticket!

Much like many traditional hymns - play them at “Church of England” tempo and they are dirges! However, play them at Methodist or Salvation Army tempo and they have life and are much more uplifting!

 

Personally, I have a major issue with the continued use of badly written hymns (those which only the lyrics of the first verse properly fit the melody, and thereafter are “best fit” guesses for the congregation). In classical music, for example, the majority of surviving music is “good quality” as anything of poor quality was discarded long ago. Pop music could likewise “discard” poor tunes when recorded songs were deleted from the publishers catalogue of recordings. (Sadly, digital recording means that far too much dross is now with us forever, but that is another argument!)

 

But hymns seem to be sacrosanct (no pun intended) because they praise God! For example, this particular hymn has no discernible structure to its melody, meandering along until suddenly we discover the verse has ended, and the second verse starts up and we vaguely remember the melody of the first phrase but then afterwards are back into “hunt the note” territory (because it has no discernible melodic structure so is difficult to remember) compounded by the syllables no longer fitting the melody properly. Oh, hang on, its verse three - I know that because I recognise the first line again but once again it’s like finding your way through a forest with no map (satnav to younger readers) to guide you.

 

Now, if the above were a pop song or even an instrumental piece of music, it would die a natural death in due course (I’m not singing/playing that - it’s carp!) but because it is a hymn then it is held in reverence and - like the undead in horror movies - refuses to lie down and die!

 

I’ve had this argument about scrapping bad hymns many times, and am often faced with the argument “but you miss the liturgical point it makes!” Yes, you are right, I do, because I am concentrating on trying to bl@@dy well sing the tune right and somehow fit the lyrics! 
 

The hymns that are well written allow the congregation to sing together easily and gets its message across because the words fit the tune! (Best examples - although there are usually the odd exception - carols!) 

 

But sing them at Church of England tempo and you kill all the life in them!
 

Steve S

[Canal Digger]

11 minutes ago, SteveyDee68 said:

1 hour ago, New Haven Neil said:

 

That's the bit that is my problem - why not have 12 notes on the stave, then my brain would accept it!  I understand the theory, my head just doesn't like it.  I'm sure there's a mathematical explanation for the octave, oh and while I'm on, why start with A but always refer to Middle C as a starting point?  On the Pyanner of course.  My head works in curious ways!

 

I really should make another attempt at making music, but is it an old dog thing I wonder, at not-quite 65?

Expand  

I seem to remember a brief discussion in the first year of my degree by “Clever Trevor” (so named because he did music analysis with us) about some experiments done in the late 1960s/early ‘70s with non-music-reading children which showed that the human eye/brain could “chunk” graphic  information presented on a five line stave but adding additional lines (as opposed to ledger lines) almost immediately reduced the efficiency.
 

I don’t remember any real details, but do remember it came about due to a question from our year’s resident genius composer Matthew Hind (who had been writing music since the age of 6) along the same lines as yourself. He wrote music you could enjoy listening to, but could also do “experimental” stuff and his question arose I think from some ideas he had about notating the latter. He even wrote something using coloured music notes to represent dynamics (volume) to see if that worked better than traditional ways of notating (it didn’t, but was fun trying it out!)
 

Matt should have won the Composition Prize in our final year, but his music was simply too melodic (he refused to write anything other than what he wanted to hear himself) and it was instead awarded to someone who wrote avant garde “stuff”* that had no melody, discernible aural structure or point (to most listeners) but her efforts “fitted” with the academic leanings of the composition department. (Myself and my best mate similarly wrote “tunes” instead of “plinky plonk bang crash” monstrosities, and were marked down for that!)

 

Yes, there is a mathematical/physics basis to the “octave” which is a fascinating rabbit hole to dive into for a few hours, especially now that some very good YouTube videos explain it all in an entertaining and far less academically dusty manner!

 

You are quite right about the old Joanna’s white keys being confusing starting on A but everything referencing middle C, but that is because “middle C” sits on the ledger line exactly half way between treble and bass clefs!

 

Seen separately, middle C in the treble clef sits on the first ledger line below the stave. Middle C in the bass clef sits on the first ledger line above the stave. Place the treble stave above the bass stave (as for piano) and there is just one ledger line separating the two staves - write a note on that line and in treble clef it is the middle C and in bass clef it is also the middle C … hence the name “Middle C”. (In practice in order to show which hand is playing which notes, notes can be shown on more ledger lines above the bass or below the treble stave that could/should be easier to read written on the appropriate clef!)

 

On a traditional piano, middle C was close to the centrally placed keyhole for locking the lid, so once the pattern of white/black keys was established, it was easy to direct anyone learning to the middle C key - “Look for the keyhole, now look for the closest pair of black keys, and middle C is the white key directly to the left of the lower of the two black keys” (plus, of course, being physically shown that whilst being explained and most people can find a middle C on a piano!) Of course, keyboards don’t have a keyhole … 🫢🤣

 

Steve S

 

 

* Personally, I simply can’t call such assemblages of apparently random notes “music” even if it meets the philosophical criteria of “organised sounds” 

I know that this is English, I can recognise the individual words, but I have no idea, what you are talking about.

 

Many years ago in a 'compulsory' Music lesson at school, I tried to learn how to learn t o play the Recorder, eventually I learnt that a 'symbol' meant the note 'C' and that meant that I had to position my fingers so, then the next symbol meant A, so fingers ...., by this time the rest of the class were on the next line! 

[SteveyDee68]

18 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Any massed untrained singing will slow a quick tune down

Especially sports fans.

 

Because they individually wait to follow other singers, which develops cumulative delays the larger the group.

 

The “sheep” effect.

 

Problem is, the “sheep” gene is already strong in sports fans already - look at how they all follow a team and mob together into a great big flock.

 

Baaaaa!

 

😉🤣

 

(Am guessing that will ruffle a few fleeces feathers!)

 

Steve S

[SteveyDee68]

6 minutes ago, Canal Digger said:

I know that this is English, I can recognise the individual words, but I have no idea, what you are talking about.

You are not the only one! 🤣

 

7 minutes ago, Canal Digger said:

Many years ago in a 'compulsory' Music lesson at school, I tried to learn how to learn t o play the Recorder, eventually I learnt that a 'symbol' meant the note 'C' and that meant that I had to position my fingers so, then the next symbol meant A, so fingers ...., by this time the rest of the class were on the next line! 

That’s the problem with whole class music instrumental tuition - there’s no ‘differentiation’ for ability, usually because there is a fixed “end point” (usually a performance) towards which the class is working and which the tuition is judged by. 

 

And how sad that you would have been left feeling ‘left behind’ by your experience learning the recorder. But if you started with “C” (probably middle C) then it is no wonder that was the case! I have to teach Year 2 children and we start with B (first finger and thumb of left hand) as that is the easiest note to play on the recorder in terms of fingering - but with a wrist band on their left wrist to remind them which is their left hand!
 

Steve S

[SteveyDee68]

3 hours ago, Northmoor said:

2. Whenever the government talks about exceptions to strict immigration rules for people with particular specialist, in-demand skills, I've never heard this mentioned....

That’s because the government we’ve been inflicted with this past decade don’t give a flying monkey about the Arts! Remember the “cyber” adverts around the time of the pandemic?

 

Steve S

 

 

 

Edited February 12 by SteveyDee68
Now why would autocorrect change monkey to money?!

[SM42]

All this talk of music makes me want to learn.  ( I'll need to learn the English used first) 

 

But like 98% of things that pique my interest, the effect soon wears off through sheer laziness and becomes a low priority till next time and the process starts again. 

 

One day maybe, one day. 

 

Or maybe not

 

Andy

[newbryford]

18 minutes ago, SM42 said:

 

 

But like 98% of things that pique my interest, the effect soon wears off through sheer laziness and becomes a low priority till next time and the process starts again. 

 

O

 

Sounds like more wall painting to come?

[SM42]

8 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

Sounds like more wall painting to come?

 

Strange you mention that 

 

I have just been discussing the schedule of works for the next project. 

 

Deadlines have been set, workpacks agreed and the necessary disruptive possessions of the line planned in. 

 

Andy

[J. S. Bach]

3 hours ago, Northmoor said:

1. It should be Rule Britannia instead, much more uplifting.  ...snip...

Hey, even I recognize and know a few lines of that one!

[Happy Hippo]

The speed of sound can also ruin communal singing. By the time the crowd at the far end of the pitch have sung the words to the music they've just heard, the band is half way through the next line.  This is amplified by TV sound units dotted throughout the ground who pick up the difference and broadcast them at the same time. 

Edited February 12 by Happy Hippo

[DenysW]

1 hour ago, J. S. Bach said:

5 hours ago, Northmoor said:

1. It should be Rule Britannia instead, much more uplifting.  ...snip...

Hey, even I recognize and know a few lines of that one!

Yes, but nowadays the the words provoke derision rather than respect. An anthem that proclaim the UK rules the waves? You're avin' a larf. And that it's citizens will never be slaves - presumably because we were more on the dishing-out end than the receiving end - back in the days when that was profitable, of course.