The Night Mail

[Canal Digger]

4 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

I only did woodwork at school for one year aged 11-12

What no Maths, English ....?

[J. S. Bach]

10 hours ago, bbishop said:

All I know about guns is that when I put the sight thing to my eye, there is a bloody great bolt in front of my face.  In the CCF, the other cadets got the Lee-Enfields, I was given the map.

Don't feel bad, the very first high-powered rifle that I had to fire was the M-1 Garand!

[J. S. Bach]

5 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

Aren't most of the maps the Navy use just all blue?

 

Dave

Usually called charts.

[Flying Fox 34F]

Recently, at school in Romania, my daughter and her year group were visited by the local Shooting club!  The club mainly takes part in the combined cross country skiing and shooting competitions.

Anyway, the club had brought along a laser training rifle, for the class to try.  My daughter managed to hit every target, which impressed the Instructor and terrified her class mates!!!!!  
I believe I’m bringing her up right.

 

Paul

[New Haven Neil]

3 hours ago, polybear said:

 

I'd hazard a guess that's got real scope for stinging in the morning

 

 

Indeed - if you have ever shot a bow without an arm guard, the string buzz from that multiplied by about ten!

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, J. S. Bach said:

Usually called charts.

Some people think maps are quite adequate.......

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/sailor-using-road-map-to-navigate-is-rescued-710914.html 

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

Some people think maps are quite adequate.......

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/sailor-using-road-map-to-navigate-is-rescued-710914.html 

 

Its been nearly a quarter of a century, I wonder if he's still trying...  🤔

 

[Winslow Boy]

33 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

Its been nearly a quarter of a century, I wonder if he's still trying...  🤔

 

Maybe he's gone digital? Do Tom Tom still do updates?

[monkeysarefun]

9 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

In 1916 the Southern Pacific built a wooden trestle right across the Great Salt Lake.  This was eventually replaced by an embankment with a couple of bridges in it.  The trestle had to be dismantled and the wood was in excellent condition and IIRC the demolition company made a lot of money selling the wood. 

 

Jamie

Tasmanian Huon pine   has a very high oil content, methyl eugenol, which renders it impervious to insects, and it is waterproof. It grows only in the Southwest forests of Tasmania and  is not actually a pine and is the only member of its family. It  grows extremely slowly, averaging just 1 millimetre in girth per year, so is not viable as a plantation timber although specimens have been found that are  2,500 years old so it could be a very long term proposition.

 

The felling of green Huon Pines stopped completely in the 1970’s after a consensus that it was neither sustainable nor prudent to cut down trees that were 1000 years old. However, a careful stockpiling operation was begun when trees were felled and collected prior to the flooding of several valleys to create dams for hydro electric schemes. For decades these logs were tied into huge rafts and left to float unperturbed on the water until needed. The stockpile created when Lake Gordon was flooded in 1972 still supplies the majority of logs released for use each year. Only 3 sawmills are licensed to process the logs.

 

The retrieval of stumps left over from old logging is another source of salvage timber and led to the discovery of tons of ancient buried Huon pine logs, some dated at 38,000 years old and still intact despite being buried in the damp earth all that time. In addition,  perfectly millable logs are being recovered from the bottom of  Macquarie Harbour where they were lost due to capsizes and mishaps when it was being cut down and transported by convicts in the late 1700's and early 1800's. 

 

It also smells amazing when cut or worked.

Edited April 20 by monkeysarefun

[iL Dottore]

18 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

Aren't most of the maps the Navy use just all blue?

 

Dave

 

12 hours ago, J. S. Bach said:

Usually called charts.

I thought that the distinction is that maps plot terrain, whilst charts plot bodies of water…

[Happy Hippo]

14 minutes ago, iL Dottore said:

 

I thought that the distinction is that maps plot terrain, whilst charts plot bodies of water…

Aviation charts plot the skies over bodies of land and water.

 

However, most of the military helicopter crews I flew with , before electronic mapping became the norm, also used to have their route plotted using OS maps, and certainly they would have the relevant map(s) to hand for the observer/airgunner to confirm location.

 

The air nav charts such as Jeppesen are brilliant for 'normal' flight, but low down, below the minimum heights required to be flown by civilian aviators, air navigation suddenly becomes very, very, fast rally car style navigation.

 

DH will no doubt confirm that the time required for pre planning any, but especially low level sorties, way exceeds the actual flight time.

[Winslow Boy]

28 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

Aviation charts plot the skies over bodies of land and water.

 

However, most of the military helicopter crews I flew with , before electronic mapping became the norm, also used to have their route plotted using OS maps, and certainly they would have the relevant map(s) to hand for the observer/airgunner to confirm location.

 

The air nav charts such as Jeppesen are brilliant for 'normal' flight, but low down, below the minimum heights required to be flown by civilian aviators, air navigation suddenly becomes very, very, fast rally car style navigation.

 

DH will no doubt confirm that the time required for pre planning any, but especially low level sorties, way exceeds the actual flight time.

So does that mean there not all blue then?

 

Just like to get these things straight.

 

Nitpicker from Manutopea 

 

Ps still without a shed.

[polybear]

2 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

Aviation charts plot the skies over bodies of land and water.

 

However, most of the military helicopter crews I flew with , before electronic mapping became the norm, also used to have their route plotted using OS maps, and certainly they would have the relevant map(s) to hand for the observer/airgunner to confirm location.

 

 

When there was a Chinook Fly-past for the Aircrew** killed in the Mull of Kintyre crash, one of the Aircraft reported that their GPS Nav System was five miles out.....

 

**Who were basically "hung out to dry" and used as scapegoats IIRC - I think that may have been corrected now, at least in part.  Corrected - see below.

Edited April 20 by polybear

[Happy Hippo]

3 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

When there was a Chinook Fly-past for the Aircrew** killed in the Mull of Kintyre crash, one of the Aircraft reported that their GPS Nav System was five miles out.....

 

**Who were basically "hung out to dry" and used as scapegoats IIRC - I think that may have been corrected now, at least in part.

A friend of mine was on that flight

 

I too initially felt that there was a stitch up etc.  and yes, there were issues with the HCs computer software at the time, but......

 

When you are approaching a coast line, dotted with high points, at low level in poor visibility, you should climb over the possible obstruction in good time.

 

More recently a civilian helicopter in worsening visibility, decided it was ok to descend over Snowdonia, to an altitude below that of the surrounding mountains.

 

Classic CFIT followed.

[Dave Hunt]

As HH says, in my day, I.e., up to 20 years ago, low level sorties were flown using topographical maps rather than aviation charts . The general route would be drawn up on a 1:500,000 map which as well as being topographical also had a printed overlay showing power lines. The really low level part would be on a 1:250,000 map then the last couple of minutes  or so leading up to a target were on a 1:50,000. Since the sortie would usually be flown at 420 knots (490 mph) with the run to the target at 480 - 500 knots, progress over the maps was quite rapid. There was an electronic display in the cockpit that showed a sort of moving map but that was for tactical appreciation of the route and not detailed map reading. The aircraft radar could also be used to some extent for navigation but required a good deal of expert interpretation. There were some aircraft going right back to the 1970s, such as the Jaguar, that had proper moving map displays driven by their inertial nav systems and the Tornado GR1 / GR4 even had them tied in with the autopilot but they were purely strike/attack types and on the multi role or air defence types that I flew the hand held map was the primary low level nav aid. It’s all changed now, of course, and electronic mapping is primary.

 

Dave

Edited April 20 by Dave Hunt

[Dave Hunt]

1 hour ago, polybear said:

 

When there was a Chinook Fly-past for the Aircrew** killed in the Mull of Kintyre crash, one of the Aircraft reported that their GPS Nav System was five miles out.....

 

**Who were basically "hung out to dry" and used as scapegoats IIRC - I think that may have been corrected now, at least in part.

Sorry Bear but the Mull of Kintyre Chinook crash was caused by poor airmanship. When flying at low level you have to take into account something called safety height, which is basically to take the highest point within a certain distance of your route then add 10% and a further 1500 feet. If you fly into IMC (Instrument Meteorological Conditions, I.e., bad visibility and particularly fog, mist or cloud) you must climb to safety height. This the Chinook crew failed to do and whether their nav system was 5 miles in error or not was immaterial as safety height takes care of such uncertainties. I know personally several of the people who were involved in the Board of Inquiry for the crash, including the senior officer in overall command, and can assure you that whatever the press and other civilian parties alleged, there was no attempt to lay blame unfairly, mount a cover-up for system shortcomings, use scapegoats or anything similar. We were all as shocked and saddened by the accident as anyone and the last thing anyone wanted to happen was for blame to be allocated unfairly - indeed, there were differences of opinion for a while even within the RAF - but at the end of the day lessons have to be learned. Sadly, some lessons get repeated and this was one of them.

 

Dave

 

PS - the above safety height consideration refers to peacetime sorties. In actual operations, more risk is accepted.

 

Edited April 20 by Dave Hunt

[Dave Hunt]

Another nice day in North Hipposhire and for a change it’s not windy. We are scheduled for lunch at a rather nice restaurant to celebrate a friend’s ‘significant’ birthday for which occasion I have made a chocolate cake. The cake has already been delivered to the restaurant and armed guards mounted behind bear and hippo traps just in case.

 

Dave

[polybear]

54 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

As HH says, in my day, I.e., up to 20 years ago, low level sorties were flown using topographical maps rather than aviation charts . The general route would be drawn up on a 1:500,000 map which as well as being topographical also had a printed overlay showing power lines. The really low level part would be on a 1:250,000 map then the last couple of minutes  or so leading up to a target were on a 1:50,000. Since the sortie would usually be flown at 420 knots (490 mph) with the run to the target at 480 - 500 knots, progress over the maps was quite rapid. There was an electronic display in the cockpit that showed a sort of moving map but that was for tactical appreciation of the route and not detailed map reading. The aircraft radar could also be used to some extent for navigation but required a good deal of expert interpretation. There were some aircraft going right back to the 1970s, such as the Jaguar, that had proper moving map displays driven by their inertial nav systems and the Tornado GR1 / GR4 even had them tied in with the autopilot but they were purely strike/attack types and on the multi role or air defence types that I flew the hand held map was the primary low level nav aid. It’s all changed now, of course, and electronic mapping is primary.

 

Dave

 

Despite the increased cleverness of modern Avionic Systems the workload for Pilots flying single-seater aircraft must've shot up immensely compared to those with a Nav in the back seat.

 

34 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

Sorry Bear but the Mull of Kintyre Chinook crash was caused by poor airmanship. When flying at low level you have to take into account something called safety height, which is basically to take the highest point within a certain distance of your route then add 10% and a further 1500 feet. If you fly into IMC (Instrument Meteorological Conditions, I.e., bad visibility and particularly fog, mist or cloud) you must climb to safety height. This the Chinook crew failed to do and whether their nav system was 5 miles in error or not was immaterial as safety height takes care of such uncertainties. I know personally several of the people who were involved in the Board of Inquiry for the crash, including the senior officer in overall command, and can assure you that whatever the press and other civilian parties alleged, there was no attempt to lay blame unfairly, mount a cover-up for system shortcomings, use scapegoats or anything similar. We were all as shocked and saddened by the accident as anyone and the last thing anyone wanted to happen was for blame to be allocated unfairly - indeed, there were differences of opinion for a while even within the RAF - but at the end of the day lessons have to be learned. Sadly, some lessons get repeated and this was one of them.

 

Dave

 

PS - the above safety height consideration refers to peacetime sorties. In actual operations, more risk is accepted.

 

 

Thanks Dave - OP duly edited.

[Northmoor]

2 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

However, most of the military helicopter crews I flew with , before electronic mapping became the norm, also used to have their route plotted using OS maps, and certainly they would have the relevant map(s) to hand for the observer/airgunner to confirm location.

 

I obtained quite a few OS Maps surplus from Boscombe Down which are normal 1:50,000 Landrangers with all the power lines, wind turbines and communications masts highlighted. 

[Dave Hunt]

24 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

Despite the increased cleverness of modern Avionic Systems the workload for Pilots flying single-seater aircraft must've shot up immensely compared to those with a Nav in the back seat.

No. The cleverness of systems, particularly radar and tactical displays, means that the workload of operating and interpreting them has reduced very markedly, hence the need for back seaters has largely gone although even in aircraft such as the F15E there is still that need. Back seaters in such as the F4, Tornado, Buccaneer etc. were a necessity not a luxury. No designer or end user would unnecessarily have a manned rear cockpit with its concomitant weight, equipment, drag etc. penalty. Having flown such types in both seats I can assure you that the workload was too much for one man safely and tactically to undertake. Although my experience of such as the Typhoon is only from simulators, I can vouch for the fact that the processing power available within the systems makes life in the cockpit nor more demanding than that in the front seat of the previous generation of fast jets; in fact, in many ways it is simpler.

 

Dave

[Dave Hunt]

In addition to my last post, don’t believe what you see in carp such as Top Gun.

 

Dave

[Happy Hippo]

11 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

In addition to my last post, don’t believe what you see in carp such as Top Gun.

 

Dave

I went to the cinema to see the film 'Battle of Britain', and my enjoyment of this film was completely ruined by the front three rows continually standing up and saluting every time a senior RAF officer appeared on film.

 

The air combat scenes in the film, with the exception of some obvious models, still are incredible, as they were filmed with real aircraft mixing it together without the benefit of CGI

 

Apart from the various liberties taken from necessity due to the shortage of suitable airframes, I was rather amused that the end captions credit one Israeli pilot flying during the period which would have been anachronistic.

 

[PhilJ W]

24 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

Apart from the various liberties taken from necessity due to the shortage of suitable airframes, I was rather amused that the end captions credit one Israeli pilot flying during the period which would have been anachronistic.

The book that came out at the same time as the film was more accurate and described the pilot as Palestinian.

[PhilJ W]

13 hours ago, monkeysarefun said:

Tasmanian Huon pine   has a very high oil content, methyl eugenol, which renders it impervious to insects, and it is waterproof. It grows only in the Southwest forests of Tasmania and  is not actually a pine and is the only member of its family. It  grows extremely slowly, averaging just 1 millimetre in girth per year, so is not viable as a plantation timber although specimens have been found that are  2,500 years old so it could be a very long term proposition.

 

The felling of green Huon Pines stopped completely in the 1970’s after a consensus that it was neither sustainable nor prudent to cut down trees that were 1000 years old. However, a careful stockpiling operation was begun when trees were felled and collected prior to the flooding of several valleys to create dams for hydro electric schemes. For decades these logs were tied into huge rafts and left to float unperturbed on the water until needed. The stockpile created when Lake Gordon was flooded in 1972 still supplies the majority of logs released for use each year. Only 3 sawmills are licensed to process the logs.

 

The retrieval of stumps left over from old logging is another source of salvage timber and led to the discovery of tons of ancient buried Huon pine logs, some dated at 38,000 years old and still intact despite being buried in the damp earth all that time. In addition,  perfectly millable logs are being recovered from the bottom of  Macquarie Harbour where they were lost due to capsizes and mishaps when it was being cut down and transported by convicts in the late 1700's and early 1800's. 

 

It also smells amazing when cut or worked.

As teak is now a threatened species and felling is banned so those restoring Gresley teak coaches are finding it difficult to source replacement panels. Fortunately the wreck of a ship torpedoed in 1917 was found in the Irish Sea a few years ago carrying a deck cargo of teak. Unlike other timbers teak is almost impervious to teredo worm and they had only penetrated a few inches. Most of the recovered teak has been turned into veneers.

Edited April 20 by PhilJ W

[Dave Hunt]

In my early RAF days I knew a couple of the pilots who flew in the BoB film and one of them described the filmed scenes, despite some careful control and briefing, as 'raving dangerous.' I also know and once worked with (in fact, I was his mentor on his first squadron) one of the pilots who flew F14s in the original Top Gun (he was RAF on exchange with the USN) and was the one who can be seen flying past the carrier leaving a wake in the water. He earned himself a bit of a b0llocking for that when the film was released. Didn't do him a lot of harm though as he later became an RAF squadron commander.

 

Dave

Edited April 20 by Dave Hunt