Why was there no 2nd Class until 3rd Class was abolished

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, Jim Martin said:

... or, in Germany, ... 1st, 2nd and 4th.

You mean the THIRD class passengers had to walk ??!?

[Hesperus]

5th class

 

Sorry about the terrible picture quality, I really need a new phone!

[turbos]

The Glasgow, Paisley & Greenock railway has had six different classes of accommodation although not all provided for on one train, nowadays only one class of accommodation is provided.

From the top, Pullman Buffet cars (requiring a supplement), 1st Class, 2nd Class, 3rd Class, Open Seated and Open Standing. ‘Open’ coaches were unglazed  and unpanelled above waist height but were roofed and had end panelling, they were provided for travel by the tradesmen from the ‘dirty trades’ in the Clyde shipyards. The GP&G was most annoyed to find passengers of the ‘better classes’ using ‘Open’ accommodation to save a few bob. 
 

Brian.

[whart57]

On 16/02/2023 at 06:09, kevinlms said:

Whereas often the thieves and cut-throats would be travelling first class! After all, since they'd taken money off others, they could afford first class.

 

Before World War One first class passengers on cross-Channel ferries were spared tiresome passport checks at Dover and the other Channel ports, the assumption being that the first class ticket proved their bona fides. Then too the joke was that top notch swindlers, foreign spies and high class courtesans were the only ones who could afford the South Eastern Railway's first class fares.

[whart57]

On 16/02/2023 at 02:02, Michael Hodgson said:

Cartoons from the period showed the travelling public as including fishwives taking their stinking catch to market. 

 

This bucket of fish travelled on the train to Maeklong in Thailand in 2010.

 

 

The woman who put it on the train didn't even travel with it.

[whart57]

When the South Eastern Railway extended its line from London Bridge to Cannon Street and Charing Cross all trains - including the Boat Trains - called at both stations, even though this required a reversal at Cannon Street and the train had to cross the incoming trains at Borough Market junction. This did mean though there was an uninterrupted ten minute run between two central London termini, which acquired a new market in passengers. Namely ladies providing a certain service and their gentlemen clients. The first class fare was but a fraction of the fee for the services and a relatively comfortable and private accommodation was secured without having to use some seedy hotel up some dodgy street. The SER put an end to the fun by opening an intermediate station at Waterloo (today's Waterloo East)

[whart57]

As I've mentioned on another thread, the reason for Britain retaining first and third class but dropping second, while on the continent the two class system became second and third, phasing out first class on nearly all trains lay in the different treatment of aristocracy in the class systems of various countries. Nineteenth century Britain was already used to nouveaux riche industrialists buying titles and rubbing along with the dukes and earls of the old aristocracy, so first class was for the rich, and not necessarily just the titled. Britain after all had not wheeled out the guillotine and had a cull of its nobility, like France had. After Napoleon the old aristocracy in Europe were a lot less tolerant of upstart new money and as a result those with money but no title stuck to travelling second class. The consequence was that first class was barely patronised, while second class produced a decent revenue.

 

This could lead to some strange situations. The three class system survived longest on the international services, but also on one Dutch light railway operated by the Netherlands Central Railway. The NCS had a couple of first class carriages for use on their local lines. Why? Well those lines served the royal palaces, and might thus be expected to maintain the proper social distinctions as they were maintained within those palaces.

Edited February 18, 2023 by whart57

[icn]

On 15/02/2023 at 21:47, adb968008 said:

I guess its not that different to airlines.

In the last 2 decades “business class” has declined, in favour of more First, or more economy, and occasionally a marginally better “economy plus”.

 

If the only difference between First and 2nd is the quality of the seat, then the actual cost of providing it is virtually no different to 1st, but earns less revenue.

 

I think were seeing similar in model railways where we have rtr DCC ready, Dcc fitted and DCC Sound… increasingly were seeing less DCC fitted… people either want it or they dont, but the time cost of fitting a dcc chip vs a sound chip is negliable… so may as well do the higher revenue / margin one, and the lower margin / higher volume one, cut out the low margin / low volume one.

 

Middle of the road things tend to wane.. thats why you maybe better off in a lower class or an upper class and skip the middle class.

That's not what I'm seeing on flights: for long-haul there's less and less first-class, some airlines have scrapped it completely (some of the US airlines for example) and others are reducing the number of routes where it's offered (Lufthansa and British Airways come to mind). But in terms of the seats offered, business class is getting closer to the first class of days gone by - flat beds in business haven't been around so long after all.

[Andy Hayter]

I am confused by your comment on Europe phasing out first class.  Certainly not the case in France and although you might ascribe a bit of that to British aristos travelling from Calais to Paris and the Cote d'Azur, first remained across the country as a whole right up to TGV travel today.

[pete_mcfarlane]

36 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

I am confused by your comment on Europe phasing out first class.  Certainly not the case in France and although you might ascribe a bit of that to British aristos travelling from Calais to Paris and the Cote d'Azur, first remained across the country as a whole right up to TGV travel today.

To complicate things even further, a lot of those journeys would have been done by Wagon-Lits services rather than 'normal' trains. The Train Bleu from Calais to the Cote d'Azur for example. 

[whart57]

2 hours ago, icn said:

That's not what I'm seeing on flights: for long-haul there's less and less first-class, some airlines have scrapped it completely (some of the US airlines for example) and others are reducing the number of routes where it's offered (Lufthansa and British Airways come to mind). But in terms of the seats offered, business class is getting closer to the first class of days gone by - flat beds in business haven't been around so long after all.

 

There is long haul and very long haul. An eight hour flight across the Atlantic is a different matter from a thirteen hour one to SE Asia, with or without another eight or nine hours to Australia. There is also the matter of who's paying. Company policies cutting back on travel expenses reduced a lot of demand for first class across the Atlantic, but wealthy Asians and the extra justification through that extra five or six hours in a seat kept demand more steady on the Asia routes. That and the fact that the distance is too great for private jets to do in one jump. It's true that business class is getting closer to the first class of old, but on the Asia routes first class is trying to ape private jets with private cabins around those flat beds.

[Derekl]

On 17/02/2023 at 11:46, RichardT said:

My most recent post which you quoted was about which Act repealed the 1844 Act - I thought it was the 1947 Act, but it wasn’t.

 

You quoted the Irish record of the legislation - I simply pointed to the English record (but, I agree, the act applied to both).

 

In any event, section 6 of the 1844 (which required all lines to have the one train a day at less than 1 penny per mile) act was repealed in the Cheap Trains Act 1883, which effectively retained the concept but used the duty system to encourage provision - the railway did not pay passenger duty on the all-stations train with a fare of less than a penny per mile:

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=670

See the repeal provisions at the end. Note also, that this act did not apply to Ireland.

Now, I suppose, we have to find out what repealed Section 2 of the 1883 Act......

[whart57]

1 hour ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

To complicate things even further, a lot of those journeys would have been done by Wagon-Lits services rather than 'normal' trains. The Train Bleu from Calais to the Cote d'Azur for example. 

 

Wagons-Lits services were very much the equivalent of international services. In 1957, when the two class system was normalised all across Europe on a 1st/2nd basis, international trains with only first class, but charging a supplementary fare, were started - the Trans Europ Express. Effectively the three class system still existed. Even today TGV supplements exist to fares in France and the Low Countries.

[icn]

47 minutes ago, whart57 said:

 

There is long haul and very long haul. An eight hour flight across the Atlantic is a different matter from a thirteen hour one to SE Asia, with or without another eight or nine hours to Australia. There is also the matter of who's paying. Company policies cutting back on travel expenses reduced a lot of demand for first class across the Atlantic, but wealthy Asians and the extra justification through that extra five or six hours in a seat kept demand more steady on the Asia routes. That and the fact that the distance is too great for private jets to do in one jump. It's true that business class is getting closer to the first class of old, but on the Asia routes first class is trying to ape private jets with private cabins around those flat beds.

What I said applies to transpac as much as it does to transatlantic - and keep in mind that transatlantic to the west coast is also in the region of 12 hours. Try to take a flight out of LA for example and most of your options are on United, Delta or AA - only the last has something approximating first on a very few routes, and even they are apparently getting rid of it. Some of the other airlines will offer first e.g. Lufthansa, Swiss, Cathay, JAL, ANA - but the first class cabins are absolutely tiny in comparison to business (and note that this is generally limited to their LA/SF routes, I can remember only business on most flights out of Seattle for example). Plenty of other airlines don't bother with first for transpac such as Air NZ, EVA, Virgin, China Airlines.

 

In other words: first is indeed limited, and its declining. And I'm not the only one to be saying so:

https://www.economist.com/international/2019/03/09/first-class-air-travel-is-in-decline

[whart57]

That Economist piece doesn't surprise me. Those who fly on a company expense account are finding it harder to justify upper class travel, those who do not need approval for spending take private jets. Asia is a bit behind the curve on that, hence first class still being heavily marketed by the airlines of the Gulf and SE Asia.

[Sabato]

Returning to the iron road.

 

I believe the Southern Region put on non-stop services from Waterloo to Ascot for the Royal racing week, using 4CORs. All first  4CORs. Upgraded by putting anti-Macassar's on second class seats. But the toffs and pretenders paid up. But then they probably didn't use trains very much, so wouldn't know.

 

Still worth watching Ascot goers on Waterloo concourse even now,especially when they come back to town.🥂

[pete_mcfarlane]

And in earlier days, the Southern would drag all first sets of LSWR six wheelers out of the carriage sidings for the race traffic. First class fares to travel in a musty non-corridor six wheeler that does a handful of journeys a year. 

 

 

[kevinlms]

On 18/02/2023 at 04:13, Wickham Green too said:

Fifth class is "Tough - you'll have to walk."

While pushing the train!

[Compound2632]

On 31/08/2020 at 10:17, Michael Hodgson said:

My understanding was that the Midland Railway got a competitive edge on the lucrative Anglo-Scottish route by upgrading their third class stock to second class standards and the increased number of passengers diverting to them outweighed the loss of premium paid by second class passengers, who then had the choice of paying even more to go first or saving a few bob by downgrading.  With only two classes they didn't need to provide quite as much excess capacity in the form of coaches running empty to avoid the problem of casual passengers of finding their class of seat already all taken.  And the rest of the industry all followed suit.

 

That's half the story. 

 

The first step that the Midland took, effective from 1 April 1872, was to provide third class on all trains. Prior to this, express trains provided only first and second class. This move would have lured London-Lancashire passengers previously travelling second class away from the LNWR and GNR, and London-Leeds and Bradford passengers away from the GNR. In 1850, receipts per train mile were 4s 10d; following the opening of the GNR, this had steadily declined to only 3s 6d by 1870. Following the admission of third class passengers to all trains, receipts rose to 4s 8 1/2d. [P.E. Baughan, North of Leeds (2e, David & Charles, 1987) p. 180.]

 

The abolition of second class, effective from 1 January 1875, was, as you say, tied up with the Settle-Carlisle line and specifically the question of ordering rolling stock. The second class carriage stock was absorbed into the third class, and existing third class compartments were to be brought up to the standard of second class. But also, first class fares were reduced from 3d per mile to the old second class rate of 1 1/2d per mile. [P.E. Baughan, op. cit. p. 197.]

 

So the "abolition of second class" was in effect:

1. first class accommodation at second class fares;
2. second class accommodation at third class fares.

As noted above, the 1d per mile class had still to be called third class, for legal reasons.

 

Moreover, the new carriage stock was both technically and in terms of comfort a great advance over that offered by the competing companies: notably the 12-wheel bogie carriages of 1875, with 8-wheel bogie carriages becoming ubiquitous on express trains by the mid-1880s.

 

The competing lines dug their heels in. Second class was abolished on the West Coast Anglo-Scottish trains on 1 May 1893 but this was due to the progressive Caledonian's own abolition of second class, rather than to any flash of enlightenment at Euston. Indeed, second class was not abolished on the LNWR until 1 January 1912, with the equally laggardly GWR following suit. 

 

I have a sneaking suspicion that the reason the Midland could get away with its changes in the 1870s was because passenger traffic was a smaller fraction of its total business than it was on the LNWR, so if the experiment had not worked it would not have had too severe an effect on the company's finances.

[whart57]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I have a sneaking suspicion that the reason the Midland could get away with its changes in the 1870s was because passenger traffic was a smaller fraction of its total business than it was on the LNWR.

 

The three class system lasted longer on the railways south of the Thames because they were far more reliant on revenue from passengers too.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, whart57 said:

The three class system lasted longer on the railways south of the Thames because they were far more reliant on revenue from passengers too.

 

But that must have been driven by customer resistance rather than economy of operation. 

 

There's a scene in Galsworthy's Forsyte Saga where two characters - brothers I think - meet by chance at a Metropolitan Railway station after many years of estrangement. They do start talking but when the train comes in, each follows his ingrained habits: one gets into a first class compartment, the other, second. 

[Nick Holliday]

2 hours ago, whart57 said:

 

The three class system lasted longer on the railways south of the Thames because they were far more reliant on revenue from passengers too.

I think a greater factor was that all three classes persisted on the continent until the nineteen fifties, at least. I can recall wooden seats in third class on a trip to Greece in 1960. This meant there was felt to be a need to accommodate passengers in suitably appointed carriages, after their short sea crossing over the Channel to the south coast ports.

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, Nick Holliday said:

I think a greater factor was that all three classes persisted on the continent until the nineteen fifties, at least. I can recall wooden seats in third class on a trip to Greece in 1960. This meant there was felt to be a need to accommodate passengers in suitably appointed carriages, after their short sea crossing over the Channel to the south coast ports.

 

That explains the persistence of second class on boat trains but not its survival on suburban services which could have been worked more economically with only two classes. One would have been a step too far - had to wait until the 21st century for that!

[lmsforever]

 The wcml have cut back on first a backward step as travel is so much better in this mode although I have not enjoyed travel with the current encumbent,  Virgin provided a much better enviroment and staff.I can see first class being cut on many services I hope that GWR do not cut it as their offering is the best on offer at the moment in terms of what is on offer the food is excellent unlike what is offered on the wcml which when I last travelled appalling .

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, lmsforever said:

 The wcml have cut back on first a backward step as travel is so much better in this mode although I have not enjoyed travel with the current encumbent,  Virgin provided a much better enviroment and staff.I can see first class being cut on many services I hope that GWR do not cut it as their offering is the best on offer at the moment in terms of what is on offer the food is excellent unlike what is offered on the wcml which when I last travelled appalling .

 

West Coast standards of service in first class have declined, though the carriages are perhaps better-heated these days:

 

 

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