Can you please help identify these GWR coaches?

[Penrhos1920]

I've been going through my photograph collection and trying to identify coaches and I've hit a snag with these 3 photos.  Can you please help identify these GWR coaches?

 

First up are a pair of PO vans with a K14-16, a pair of Concertina thirds, or 3?, and a Concertina brake 3rd maybe behind.  The date is about 1912:

 

 

Second is a Bars 1 Toplight, 3 compartment brake third, I think, with a right mixture of coaches behind, date also about 1912:

 

 

And finally for now is another Bars 1 Toplight, but with 6 compartments, the date is possible summer 1927 based upon another photograph taken at the same location and in the sames series of photos:

 

[richbrummitt]

Great photos. What are the locations?

 

I don’t consider myself good at this coach spotting from photos but by elimination using the lot book according to Harris: 

 

1st pic. I believe there was only one type of 3rd Concertina: diaC27. So those 2 or 3 - and I agree the third is long like it could be the same as the first two - are I think C27. However if the penultimate vehicle is all 3rd where is First class? I like dia. D43 for the rear vehicle. It appears to have 4 compartments and that fits nicely. A concertina BCK (dia. E80) has 8; 4 third, 2 each second and first. 
 

2nd pic. 57’ 3 compartment bars 1 toplight BTK would be dia. D44. dia. D52 was also 3 compartment but without a lavatory and electric rather than incandescent gas lighting. The lots was  ordered 1910 and completed towards the end of 1912. 
 

3rd pic. 6 compartment bars 1 toplight BTK is dia. D49. I don’t  see another option for a 6 compartment in the lot list so feel pretty confident about that one. 
 

not much but a start. 

Edited December 6, 2020 by richbrummitt

[corneliuslundie]

In the first photo I wonder if the second PO van is No. 842 to Lot 465 or No. 845 to Lot 518. Both had sorting tables along one side and a single door, though it is shown as double whereas I think the one in the photo may be single.

Is the first vehicle a K17? See http://www.penrhos.me.uk/LowRoofs2.shtml

I'll leave others to identify the passenger vehicles.

There may be more information on www.penrhos.me.uk

Jonathan

[corneliuslundie]

Deleted as rubbish.

Jonathan

Edited December 7, 2020 by corneliuslundie

[jcm@gwr]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

No, that website is run by Richard Spratt, named after his layout. Penrhos Junction is just north of Cardiff.

Jonathan

 

Check the OP's signature!

[Jeff Smith]

Interesting that the tender in the third picture has no lettering!

[K14]

36 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

Interesting that the tender in the third picture has no lettering!

 

Yes it does... the 'G' is just behind the first column of rivets. The transfers don't always show up under certain lighting conditions:

 

https://warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrt332.htm

 

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by K14
Link

[Mikkel]

3 hours ago, K14 said:

https://warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrt332.htm

 

Now if that was a 1900s goods loco, most people would say "No lining". Food for thought, I think.

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Mikkel
To clarify

[Penrhos1920]

17 hours ago, richbrummitt said:

Great photos. What are the locations?

 

I don’t consider myself good at this coach spotting from photos but by elimination using the lot book according to Harris: 

 

1st pic. I believe there was only one type of 3rd Concertina: diaC27. So those 2 or 3 - and I agree the third is long like it could be the same as the first two - are I think C27. However if the penultimate vehicle is all 3rd where is First class? I like dia. D43 for the rear vehicle. It appears to have 4 compartments and that fits nicely. A concertina BCK (dia. E80) has 8; 4 third, 2 each second and first. 
 

2nd pic. 57’ 3 compartment bars 1 toplight BTK would be dia. D44. dia. D52 was also 3 compartment but without a lavatory and electric rather than incandescent gas lighting. The lots was  ordered 1910 and completed towards the end of 1912. 
 

3rd pic. 6 compartment bars 1 toplight BTK is dia. D49. I don’t  see another option for a 6 compartment in the lot list so feel pretty confident about that one. 
 

not much but a start. 

 

The location of photos 1 & 3 is St Annes Park, wherever that is.  Photo 2 is Kensal Rise which is just East of Old Oak Common.

 

Photo1.  I wasn't expecting anyone to id the coaches at the rear of the train!  Did a tran have to have first class? 

 

Photo 2.  Wasn't D52 Bars 2?  I haven't got a photo or drawing of D44 but it's the only design that fits.

 

Photo 3.  D49 was a non-corridor design.  Having had a second look, I'm thinking that the first coach is A11 brake first and the second coach A10 all first, Fishguard Boat Stock.

 

16 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

In the first photo I wonder if the second PO van is No. 842 to Lot 465 or No. 845 to Lot 518. Both had sorting tables along one side and a single door, though it is shown as double whereas I think the one in the photo may be single.

Is the first vehicle a K17? See http://www.penrhos.me.uk/LowRoofs2.shtml

I'll leave others to identify the passenger vehicles.

There may be more information on www.penrhos.me.uk

Jonathan

 

 

 

 

Photo 1 - the postal coaches.  Thanks Jonathan for pointing out that the answer was on my own website!  Senior moment!   I had it in my mind that because they are postal coaches I haven't covered them.  The second vehicle certainly looks like 842 or 845.  I notice that similar coaches underwent lots of alterations and at one time at least did have only a single door.  It certainly has the correct 6'4 bogies.

 

 

 

 

[bécasse]

St.Anne's Park is on the Bath line on the outskirts of Bristol.

[richbrummitt]

1 hour ago, Penrhos1920 said:

 

The location of photos 1 & 3 is St Annes Park, wherever that is.  Photo 2 is Kensal Rise which is just East of Old Oak Common.

 

Photo1.  I wasn't expecting anyone to id the coaches at the rear of the train!  Did a tran have to have first class? 

 

Photo 2.  Wasn't D52 Bars 2?  I haven't got a photo or drawing of D44 but it's the only design that fits.

 

Photo 3.  D49 was a non-corridor design.  Having had a second look, I'm thinking that the first coach is A11 brake first and the second coach A10 all first, Fishguard Boat Stock.

 

A train need not have first class. 

 

D52 was indeed bars 2. I couldn't decide what kind of lighting the coach in the picture had and I really could not tell you one bars from two bars in most cases.

 

D49 = oops. 8 x 1st compartments is a lot in what I thought was a 57' vehicle. Though a 70' toplight FK would have 8 x 1st.  Which direction is it heading - that might give us a clue whether 1st was likely to be behind the engine or at the rear.

 

[Penrhos1920]

3 hours ago, richbrummitt said:

 

A train need not have first class. 

 

D52 was indeed bars 2. I couldn't decide what kind of lighting the coach in the picture had and I really could not tell you one bars from two bars in most cases.

 

D49 = oops. 8 x 1st compartments is a lot in what I thought was a 57' vehicle. Though a 70' toplight FK would have 8 x 1st.  Which direction is it heading - that might give us a clue whether 1st was likely to be behind the engine or at the rear.

 

 

In the background is a gas holder which I think is Kensal Green gasworks.  So the train is travelling westbound.

[Coach bogie]

The Castle on the 70 footers looks like the first class pair A11 Brake first and A10 all first. The number of compartments is correct. and match up with my Blacksmith/Mallard etches.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Penrhos1920]

Here's another one.  I think the first coach is a C22 8'6 wide non corridor third as it is wider than the other clerestories.  What is the toplight full brake?

 

[Miss Prism]

K22 I think.

 

[Penrhos1920]

Another photo.  This one looks like a 4 compartment Bars I toplight brake third, D45, 46 or 47.  But there appears to be an additional water tank in the middle of the coach.

 

[Miss Prism]

7 minutes ago, Penrhos1920 said:

But there appears to be an additional water tank in the middle of the coach.

 

Or a gas feed crossing over?

 

 

 

[Penrhos1920]

The photo is probably post WWI as the loco was built in 1916.  I thought the few gas lit toplights were sold to the War Office for ambulance trains.  So I doubt it’s a gas pipe.

[Coach bogie]

It is a tea car converted from a Toplight. l would suggest it is ex D47 2355 which was converted to H17 and returned to an ordinary Toplight in 6/36. There was a second toplight also converted under H17, no 2365 to diagram D46. Two compartments were taken out of use, a window blanked off and fitted with a kitchen and counter. The GWR converted many different diagrams, especially clearestories, even a Dreadnought Brake 3rd, to tea cars for use where a full dining car was not required.

 

Here is a view of the opposite side. 

I do not have a drawing of the toplight tea car interior but here is how the clearestory D31 was altered inside to give you an idea.

Mike Wiltshire