Triang Clerestory coach bogies

[kandc_au]

Hi Folks,
Wondering if there is a use for the old Triang Clerestory bogies?
Are they suitable for other stock or just rubbish?
TIA
Khris

Edited February 21, 2021 by kandc_au

[kevinlms]

43 minutes ago, kandc_au said:

Hi Folks,
Wondering if there is a use for the old Triang Clerestory bogies?
Are they suitable for other stock or just rubbish?
TIA
Khris

Well they are Tri-ang's version of a Mk1 bogie.

 

I wonder if that was Tri-ang's largest ever production quantity - not counting stuff like rail joiners?

[corneliuslundie]

Over the years there have been many conversions to other GWR Diagrams published in the press. It depends how much work you want to do. There was one recently on RMWeb.

And didn't Peter Denny repaint them as GCR?

Jonathan

[Poor Old Bruce]

I can't think of any use for mine . I've got some coaches which have been repainted into LMS red or SDJR blue, I've changed their bogies for RTR Airfix/Dapol LMS bogies (robbed off coaches bought for a fiver apiece at swapmeets) to get the correct ride height. I've also used those bogies on kit-built Ratio coaches where the originals were life expired. That suits me for 'layout' coaches.

[kandc_au]

Guys,

I am talking of the bogies NOT the coaches themselves.

Khris

[jcm@gwr]

Depends, are these the plastic moulded B1 bogies,

or the cast mazak with through holes for the axles?

Edited February 21, 2021 by jcm@gwr

[corneliuslundie]

Sorry. Ignore me. They are one part I would have ditched even if I had been trying to re-use the rest as I have no use anyway for pseudo BR bogies.

Jonathan

[kandc_au]

2 hours ago, jcm@gwr said:

Depends, are these the plastic moulded B1 bogies,

or the cast mazak with through holes for the axles?

Plastic.
Look like a plate type of frame but I am not sure as I am not up on all the intricacies of bogies as such!

 

Khris

[Steamport Southport]

If you aren't into retro modelling or collectables pass them on as they are sought after.

 

Probably easily get a fiver or so a pair on eBay.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Triang-Hornby-OO-set-of-2-x-BR-Mk1-coach-bogies-with-wheels-amp-couplings-/293952034974?nma=true&si=ZzFASP6TbdmFrxKB8fSK9KGalDI%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[The Johnster]

The Triang clerestories and their successors, including the current models from Hornby, have always had BR B1 bogies.  The originals were the rivetted to the bottom type that was common in those days to the first generation of mk1 coaches, the 9 inch models, and the Maunsell bogie utility van.  These coaches also featured 'integral' bodyshell construction, several years ahead of the BR mk2 series (!) and had underframe mouldings attached to the underneath of the bodyshells.  The roofs are removable.  TTBOMK no Triang, Triang Hornby, or Hornby coach has had mazak bogies since the demise of the original Rovex 7 inch 'shorties'.  The emu, dmu, and Blue Pullman had mazak SR type power bogie (complete with cast pickup sled) in conjunction with plastic B1s, and this was also incorrect for the dmu and Blue Pullman. 

 

At some time the spec for the clerestories was altered to 'plug in' types replacing the brass rivets, and the current and more recent models have these, but the bogies were still the B1 tooling apart from that.  The shorty clerestory is still very much of it's time apart from that; no interior, clip on roof, silly little buffers, toylike underframe.  The B1 bogies are completely incorrect for it and many other Triang and Triang Hornby models that they were used generically on, and should really only be used for mk1 stock in pre- blue/grey liveries,  They appeared on the 'scale length' miniature buffet which in reality was built new with Commonwealths, the 'Caley' coaches, and the initial GW Collett bowenders, the faux Mausells based on them, and the initial Thompsons and Staniers as well. 

 

That said, they are not a bad representation of a B1 bogie, and if you have any use for a B1 bogie , they are perfectly acceptable,  to scale length and wheelbase, and well detailed, a very good plastic tooling for 1960 that passes muster 60 years on.

 

They are not right for the Dean clerestories, which ran on 8'6" wheebase Dean bogies that were different to the 10' wheelbase Dean bogies used on the later gangwayed Dean clerestories, so the bogies from the gangwayed coaches cannot be substituted either.  I would suggest using Stafford Road Works 3D prints, a range that includes the correct Dean 8'6" bogies available through Shapeways; not the cheapest option but very effective with Hornby or Bachmann wheels and including NEM pockets.   Alternatively, one can make a 'layout' model with the original bogies; cut the tiebar off, and glue a footboard on (my footboards are Sainsbury's cafe coffee stirrers cut in half lengthways and to length); this makes a radical difference and huge improvement to the Triang/Triang Hornby/Hornby bogi, as most of the incorrect detail is hidden by the footboards, at no cost other than a Sainsbury's coffee, but you'll have to wait for lockdown to be lifted...

 

Another radical improvement can be made with replacement buffers of the correct profile and diameter, and internal detail, or at least compartment dividers to prevent the windows on the other side of the coach being visible .  Stafford Road do 3D seating for these coaches, but it's a bit pricey and I used Ratio on mine; also glazed the clerestory lights and filled in the rectangular holes for the roof clips.  Further work can be done to the underframes, but I'd want to be cut'n'shutting the coaches to the correct length (an extra compartment) before tackling that.

[kandc_au]

Thanks Southport and Johnster.
If anyone reading this has a need for these bogies, give me a hoy as I have a few pair needing a new home.
Already awaiting the correct Dean bogies....due to arrive sometime in March I believe

 

Khris

[Marshall5]

On 21/02/2021 at 18:05, The Johnster said:

  The B1 bogies are completely incorrect for it and many other Triang and Triang Hornby models that they were used generically on, and should really only be used for mk1 stock in pre- blue/grey liveries,  They appeared on the 'scale length' miniature buffet which in reality was built new with Commonwealths, the 'Caley' coaches, and the initial GW Collett bowenders, the faux Mausells based on them, and the initial Thompsons and Staniers as well.

I don't think all the RMB's were built new with Commonwealths. Some later batches had been fitted with B1's as we purchased Sc1839 (dia 98 built 1960) direct from B.R. in 1982 and it had B1's.  A photo in Parkin shows Sc1845 from the same batch also with B1's but also one from the earlier batch Sc1831 (dia 99) with, as you say,  Commonwealths.  FWIW my recollection is of seeing plenty of blue/grey Mk1's fitted with B1's even into the 80's.

Ray.

[The Johnster]

I think BR swapped some commonwealth bogies for B1s before selling coaches for scrap or heritage railway use in order to retain the commonwealths for further use, and may have done this with some B4 fitted stock as well.  

Edited February 28, 2021 by The Johnster

[Marshall5]

You are quite correct about the bogie swaps which were quite common.  In some cases the carriages sold for preservation were delivered on their Commonwealths or B4's but these had to be returned to B.R.  ISTR that the Mk1 Pullmans at the NYMR lost their Commonwealths and were running on Gresley bogies because of this.  A lot of the B4's released went on to BG's so they could run at 100mph.

However I don't believe that this was the case with the dia 98 RMB's as the photo in Parkin shows SC1845 in traffic (still in maroon) with B1's.  Our Sc1839 was sold straight out of traffic and delivered by rail on the same B1's that it had in service.

Ray.

[kevinlms]

On 01/03/2021 at 06:38, Marshall5 said:

You are quite correct about the bogie swaps which were quite common.  In some cases the carriages sold for preservation were delivered on their Commonwealths or B4's but these had to be returned to B.R.  ISTR that the Mk1 Pullmans at the NYMR lost their Commonwealths and were running on Gresley bogies because of this.  A lot of the B4's released went on to BG's so they could run at 100mph.

However I don't believe that this was the case with the dia 98 RMB's as the photo in Parkin shows SC1845 in traffic (still in maroon) with B1's.  Our Sc1839 was sold straight out of traffic and delivered by rail on the same B1's that it had in service.

Ray.

Were the Scottish RMB's used only on internal services and hence a lower top speed and so not requiring 100mph running?

[Steamport Southport]

That's a coincidence.

 

I have plans on doing SC1839 as part of a "preserved" train, along with the GWR 150 liveried BSK 35128. Both now in Maroon.

 

It was just that I have ended up with a few preserved oddities such as J72 Joem and was thinking what would suit them. A few preserved Mark 1s are ideal. But I'd rather have proper preserved examples than just use random coaches.

 

 

Jason

Edited March 2, 2021 by Steamport Southport

[Marshall5]

11 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Were the Scottish RMB's used only on internal services and hence a lower top speed and so not requiring 100mph running?

Sorry, I don't know the answer to that one.  According to Parkin, RMB's 1829-1845 were allocated to the Scottish region some, 1829-37 being to dia 99 and 1938-45 to dia 98. Whether the choice of bogie depended on the build diagram or regional allocation I couldn't say. 

Ray.

[RobMG]

There is a use for the bogies fitted to very old Triang clerestories.

I bought earlier this week  an old but pristine clerestory brake for £10 at the shop on Carrog station.  

I had been on the lookout for some of these coaches for a while.   I then had to look more seriously for others.   I found two more Brakes on ebay for £10 the pair £4 postage, which I thought was pretty good. 

Then, looking just now I saw the joke of the week.....  A clerestory brake roof for £1.50, I thought yes reasonably ok price, until I looked further at the postage !  £5  now the postage for that should be £1.99 no more.   

That type of thing really pisses me off..

Anyway enough of that.  My other ones arrived yesterday, and I set about them with my razor saw to make a C10  which I am pleased with. 

The bogies however present more of a problem.  I didn't feel like buying the shapeways offering,  So I looked at the the Triang B1's that came with the coaches, and wondered if I could do anything with them.

The wheelbase is right the springs and axleboxes are passable, but frames are not. Nevermind I told myself , I will have a go. 

Fortunately the plastic they used in those days is not the soapy flexi stuff they use now.

It responds well to Mek.  

So I carefully cut away all the unwanted detail, and built up the frames with 'Plastikard'

and made parts by turning old bits of sprue on the lathe.  I guess you could make the bits by hand, but I have a Unimat so could do them quickly. 

I have made one fair representation of a Dean 8'6" bogie.

When my partner is back home I will get her to help me put some pics on here to show you how I did this.  

I am quite pleased with my efforts. 

I am looking for other ones I can do which lasted into the BR period. 

[Il Grifone]

A bit late here, but there are two snags with the Tri-ang BR1 bogie. As it stands, the coach body sits 2mm too high like almost all their rolling stock and the wheels are too small for BR1s and should be 14mm in diameter.

Lima just left a big space between the top of the bogie frame and the coach body, so realitively easy to correct, but Tri-ang strtched the tpp frame upwards to fill the gap. I have a few of the Mk1s and am at present seeing if I can do anything with them, but it looks like live with it or replace the bogies. I thought about filing the top of the bogies down, but the detail has all beem moulded along the top edge so apart from being a pain, it will result in a mess.

I am happy to see that RMBs ran on Commonwealth bogies, as I have a Bachmann set, one coach is sorted and I thought to pass off another (restaurant or sleeper) as fitted with an experimental set of B4s. Somehow I have acquired two of these of diffent makes, but a coat of paint will hide that (one is black and the other brown??). For the others, I'll have to sort out some Kitmaster ones when I can get back to Airstrip One the UK.

I've noticed that the Hornby CK I have (c2000) has the toilet windows taller than the compartment one for some strange reason (they are the same on the real thing!) I'll just run it with the corridor side on the viewing side. The livery is too good to mess about with.

(Tri-ang incudes Triang/Hornby and Hornby of course.)

 

My Tri-ang clerestories run on K's bogies. These were still available new when I modified/detailed mine. (Shows how long ago....)

Edited December 14, 2022 by Il Grifone

[Dana Ashdown]

18 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

As it stands, the coach body sits 2mm too high like almost all their rolling stock

One way of correcting this is to remove the bogie, and file or grind down the boss moulded to the underside of the body until the correct height is obtained. I used a bench mounted hand-powered grinder to do this and it did  work.

 

However, if the bogies are riveted on, rather that the later clip-in type, you have the job of removing the rivet without damaging the body or the bogie. I did do it to one coach -- otherwise, I've leave my clerestories alone and ignore the added height.

[Il Grifone]

There isn't really enough clearance even removing the boss (which then can upset the trackholding, because the bogie is no longer free to rock) as the excess height is in the bogie, plus the wheels are too small and correcting this worsens the situation. Inside bearings for the axles are an alternative solution, but they will no longer line up with the axleboxes. I gave up and replaced the bogies with the correct pattern.

 

The rivets succumb to a razor saw between bogie and solebars (taking greatcare to avoid sawing into either) or a screwdriver can be used to lift the lip inside the coach (fiddly - I've just done a Mk1 coach.) In the past I've tried drilling them out. but this tends to melt the plastic.

 

I wish I could ignore the excess height, but it stands out like a sore thumb. (Probably just me being pedantic?)

Edited December 16, 2022 by Il Grifone
Inability to type!

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

I wish I could ignore the excess height, but it stands out like a sore thumb. (Probably just mebeing pedantic?)

 

Just run them behind your Triang Dean single...

[Il Grifone]

The coaches have been sorted (new correct pattern bogies). The Dean Single is work in (slow) progress.... (Involving replacement of the Tri-ang gears with Romford.