Chuffnell Regis

[Graham T]

A bit more firtling this morning, and I think the weathering is done.  I added a wash of frame dirt to the bogies, a black wash to the grilles in the lower panels, and then a dirty wash over the roof.  Not sure if I might have overdone the latter?

 

I was pleased to see that the wires still don't show up through the windows in daylight, but now want to replace the figures...  And some flush glazing would look good as well.

 

Now for the tricky part, of leaving it alone to dry before I attack the buffer beams.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Graham T

[Graham T]

I also got the first point motor installed, and incredibly it actually works and everything!  

 

I'm using Peco PL-1000 motors, with a Cobalt CDU, and good old-fashioned Peco switches.

 

Please remember, I am blessed with almost zero knowledge of wiggly amps.  Before I solder the wires to the switch contacts, I want to be sure that I'm actually using the right stuff.  So far I've been using seven strand 0.22mm.sq wire, which seems to work fine.  The TMC blurb assures me that it can be used for point motors, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that you need something a bit more hard-core if you're using a CDU.

 

Can anyone offer any advice on this please?

[MrWolf]

I used 16/0.2mm stranded equipment wire for mine, following recommendations on here.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10m-16-0-2mm-Stranded-Equipment-Wire-Choice-of-Colours-Layout-Connecting-/124757668089?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

 

I'm also running P1000 motors fired through a CDU as the crossover motors are wired together to fire in tandem.

 

[Graham T]

So, if I understand properly, the seven strand stuff that I have (7/0.2) isn't up to the job?  Could I use two lengths of it in parallel, giving me essentially 14/0.2?

[MrWolf]

7/0.2 isn't heavy enough and unfortunately you can't double up because you will still have the same current traveling through the wire. I'm pretty rusty on electronics, it's been about twenty years. The only electrical things that I mess around with on a regular basis is vehicle or radio wiring and both of which are pre 1960 technology!

[Graham T]

B*gger.  What about this stuff?

 

[Andrew P]

4 hours ago, Graham T said:

I also got the first point motor installed, and incredibly it actually works and everything!  

 

I'm using Peco PL-1000 motors, with a Cobalt CDU, and good old-fashioned Peco switches.

 

Please remember, I am blessed with almost zero knowledge of wiggly amps.  Before I solder the wires to the switch contacts, I want to be sure that I'm actually using the right stuff.  So far I've been using seven strand 0.22mm.sq wire, which seems to work fine.  The TMC blurb assures me that it can be used for point motors, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that you need something a bit more hard-core if you're using a CDU.

 

Can anyone offer any advice on this please?

LOAD OF BOLL***

 

Sorry Graham, I'm not being rude to you, but wiring for Model Railways in general

 

I use whatever is in my box, from Gaugemaster wire, door bell wire to Household plug wire, if it can carry a current then it should work, 

I've done it this way for over 40 years and never had any issues. 

 

NOTE = ITS PROBABLY WRONG, and I'll get pulled to pieces over this post, but its always worked for me.

 

 

My only proviso is NOT to use solid wire.

 

Example below.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Andrew P

[Graham T]

Thanks - why not solid wire though?

[Andrew P]

2 minutes ago, Graham T said:

Thanks - why not solid wire though?

Only for me, I went to a show and the Points wouldn't work, and I found a solid wire Point feed had severed where the screw had gripped it, squashed it and the vibration of the Car journey and moving it had broken it.

 

[Graham T]

I've detailed the front end now (I think - not quite which end of these is the front...)

 

There was a very rudimentary hook for a screw link moulded onto the buffer beam, so I filed that away, drilled a hole, and added a coupling from the spares box.  The thinner pipe had been mounted on the left of the coupling, which was the wrong place according to prototype photos, so I moved it to the other side.  The central pipe was already in place, so I left that alone, and then added a second pipe under the buffer beam (a slightly modified Lanarkshire Models item, if you're interested).

 

The final addition was a couple of lamp brackets from plastic strip, which looked tiny on the cutting mat - and enormous on the model!  I'll leave everything to set now before giving it some paint.  The other end has no details at all yet, so that's next on the target list.

 

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Graham T
Typo

[Graham T]

3 minutes ago, Andrew P said:

Only for me, I went to a show and the Points wouldn't work, and I found a solid wire Point feed had severed where the screw had gripped it, squashed it and the vibration of the Car journey and moving it had broken it.

 

 

My layout will only move if there's an earthquake (and if that happens points not working won't be my main concern), so do you think I could get away with using .6mm solid wire?

[Andrew P]

8 minutes ago, Graham T said:

 

My layout will only move if there's an earthquake (and if that happens points not working won't be my main concern), so do you think I could get away with using .6mm solid wire?

I still wouldn't, I was told many years ago not to, not sure why not, but since my issue I haven't.

[MrWolf]

Solid wire will create too much resistance at low volts, low amps, so you lose power and fine control. It will be all or nothing.

[Graham T]

I've never really been much of a chap for fine control

 

But I think wiring the point motors will have to wait until I get the right wire.  Gives me an excuse to do something else!

[Graham T]

So, seeing as I've made a start on messing about with rolling stock, I thought I'd go for "an easy win".  The B-set coaches come with some optional close couplings, so I popped those on.  They make a noticeable difference, I think.  And also they can still be propelled through the tightest curves they'll have to manage on the layout without the buffers locking - which is nice...

 

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Graham T

[Andrew P]

1 hour ago, Graham T said:

I've never really been much of a chap for fine control

 

But I think wiring the point motors will have to wait until I get the right wire.  Gives me an excuse to do something else!

It was solid Telephone cable / 4 score, that I used on the points wiring that failed for me.

[5BarVT]

7 hours ago, Graham T said:

I also got the first point motor installed, and incredibly it actually works and everything!  

 

I'm using Peco PL-1000 motors, with a Cobalt CDU, and good old-fashioned Peco switches.

 

Please remember, I am blessed with almost zero knowledge of wiggly amps.  Before I solder the wires to the switch contacts, I want to be sure that I'm actually using the right stuff.  So far I've been using seven strand 0.22mm.sq wire, which seems to work fine.  The TMC blurb assures me that it can be used for point motors, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that you need something a bit more hard-core if you're using a CDU.

 

Can anyone offer any advice on this please?

Yes!  And I’ll try to be gentle.  :-)

5 hours ago, MrWolf said:

I used 16/0.2mm stranded equipment wire for mine,

 

I'm also running P1000 motors fired through a CDU as the crossover motors are wired together to fire in tandem

Good place to start, if going out to purchase something suitable.

 

5 hours ago, Graham T said:

So, if I understand properly, the seven strand stuff that I have (7/0.2) isn't up to the job?  Could I use two lengths of it in parallel, giving me essentially 14/0.2?

Yes

5 hours ago, MrWolf said:

7/0.2 isn't heavy enough and unfortunately you can't double up because you will still have the same current traveling through the wire.

Excuse me while I open the door to the Only Connect Profanium (sorry Rob):

BLLX

Yes you can the current will split equally down each wire (assuming they are the same).  Won’t look as neat, but it will work.

2 hours ago, Andrew P said:

I use whatever is in my box, from Gaugemaster wire, door bell wire to Household plug wire, if it can carry a current then it should work, 

I've done it this way for over 40 years and never had any issues. 

My only provi is NOT to use solid wire.

2 hours ago, Graham T said:

Thanks - why not solid wire though?

Mechanical strength.  For any given cross sectional area it’s a bigger bit of copper.  I think it might be more likely to start a crack, but even if not, once started, it will crack right through.  If it’s multi strand, you only lose a single strand and being compressed against the other strands current will flow between them.  (Unless it’s outside and gets corrosion down the inside of the casing!)

2 hours ago, Graham T said:

 

My layout will only move if there's an earthquake (and if that happens points not working won't be my main concern), so do you think I could get away with using .6mm solid wire?

Yes, but it will fracture before equivalent stranded does.  Point motors firing will create (small) vibrations even though you won’t be moving the layout.  Mind you, I had a layout wired with solid conductor 0.6mm and it lasted 20 years without breakages.

1 hour ago, MrWolf said:

Solid wire will create too much resistance at low volts, low amps, so you lose power and fine control. It will be all or nothing.

Sorry Rob, more BLLX.

Resistance is all about conductor area, not solid or stranded.  O.K. Edge effects do have an impact, but not significant for model railways and motor coil inductance will swamp it anyway.  (That sentence does not come under the ‘simple’ banner.)

 

As a positive way forward, here are some suggestions:

First, for the black and red wires on the PL1000.

Where your motor is only a few feet (max 3 say) 7/0.20mm should be fine.  Further away ones might need more.  Trial and error works!

Two in parallel could be done by wiring to each of the pair from the switch.

The green (return wires) are where you can get the best improvement.  I take it you have seen the method of wiring that PECO show - both green wires connected in the terminal block and back to the switches.  This wire can ‘daisy chain’ round all of the motor terminal blocks picking them up as you go:  if you make this a larger wire, it will benefit all your motors.  Mains flex will give you 16, 24 or 32/0.20mm which you can strip out of the outer sheath.  (0.5mm sq = 16/0.20mm, 0.75 = 24, 1 = 32.)

 

Hope this helps.

Paul.

[MrWolf]

I stand corrected, I was always told that a single heavy core wouldn't carry fine variations in current and a multi strand was better for low voltages .

[Graham T]

25 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

Yes!  And I’ll try to be gentle.  :-)

Good place to start, if going out to purchase something suitable.

 

Yes

Excuse me while I open the door to the Only Connect Profanium (sorry Rob):

BLLX

Yes you can the current will split equally down each wire (assuming they are the same).  Won’t look as neat, but it will work.

Mechanical strength.  For any given cross sectional area it’s a bigger bit of copper.  I think it might be more likely to start a crack, but even if not, once started, it will crack right through.  If it’s multi strand, you only lose a single strand and being compressed against the other strands current will flow between them.  (Unless it’s outside and gets corrosion down the inside of the casing!)

Yes, but it will fracture before equivalent stranded does.  Point motors firing will create (small) vibrations even though you won’t be moving the layout.  Mind you, I had a layout wired with solid conductor 0.6mm and it lasted 20 years without breakages.

Sorry Rob, more BLLX.

Resistance is all about conductor area, not solid or stranded.  O.K. Edge effects do have an impact, but not significant for model railways and motor coil inductance will swamp it anyway.  (That sentence does not come under the ‘simple’ banner.)

 

As a positive way forward, here are some suggestions:

First, for the black and red wires on the PL1000.

Where your motor is only a few feet (max 3 say) 7/0.20mm should be fine.  Further away ones might need more.  Trial and error works!

Two in parallel could be done by wiring to each of the pair from the switch.

The green (return wires) are where you can get the best improvement.  I take it you have seen the method of wiring that PECO show - both green wires connected in the terminal block and back to the switches.  This wire can ‘daisy chain’ round all of the motor terminal blocks picking them up as you go:  if you make this a larger wire, it will benefit all your motors.  Mains flex will give you 16, 24 or 32/0.20mm which you can strip out of the outer sheath.  (0.5mm sq = 16/0.20mm, 0.75 = 24, 1 = 32.)

 

Hope this helps.

Paul.

 

Paul, that's all enormously helpful, thank you.

 

But now I've lost my excuse to put off wiring the point motors!!!

[MrWolf]

I always err on the side of caution with wiring. My first house had numerous wall lights etc, which always worked, although when changing bulbs I noticed that the fittings were becoming rather brittle. When I decided to renovate, we found that all the feeds to these lights were made from 6 way single strand computer ribbon cable, drawing pinned to the top of the picture rails and doubled up. 

The house didn't burn down, so it must have been perfectly safe? 

There was a vacuum cleaner cable (had the word Hoover moulded every few inches) cemented into a window frame to provide power to a switch from the upstairs ring main. That simply stopped working one day.

I've been involved with classic cars and motorcycles since before I was old enough to drive and the vast majority of electrical breakdowns and even fires I've experienced have been where someone has bodged in any old wire and the supply or the unit it powers has taken a dislike to it. 

It's one thing being stuck at the side of the road at night in mid Wales trying to sort out the taped up mess of cables to a trailer socket that has shorted out on the spare wheel carrier of a van, because one bit of wire wasn't up to the job. It's quite another when you're riding a supposedly restored motorcycle at 50+ and smoke starts coming out from under the fuel tank, which is of course right between your knees. It turned out that the wire to the stop light wasn't up to the job, melted and shorted out on one of the fuel tank mounts.

If I remember right, that was two core which started life powering a mains radio, but it died on a six volt motorcycle.

That wasn't BLLX, but it could have been mine!

 

[Graham T]

A motorbike fuel tank exploding between a chap's legs doesn't bear thinking about!

[5BarVT]

2 hours ago, MrWolf said:

I stand corrected, I was always told that a single heavy core wouldn't carry fine variations in current and a multi strand was better for low voltages .

Would that be high frequencies?  If so, edge effects mentioned above come into play and your statement is correct.  It’s why busbars in substations are only 1/2” thick and your TV aerial is a coax ‘cos the signal only goes down the surface.

On model railways we don’t need to fret about this effect (others, yes, but not this one!).

Paul.

[5BarVT]

47 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

I always err on the side of caution with wiring. My first house had numerous wall lights etc, which always worked, although when changing bulbs I noticed that the fittings were becoming rather brittle. When I decided to renovate, we found that all the feeds to these lights were made from 6 way single strand computer ribbon cable, drawing pinned to the top of the picture rails and doubled up. 

The house didn't burn down, so it must have been perfectly safe? 

There was a vacuum cleaner cable (had the word Hoover moulded every few inches) cemented into a window frame to provide power to a switch from the upstairs ring main. That simply stopped working one day.

I've been involved with classic cars and motorcycles since before I was old enough to drive and the vast majority of electrical breakdowns and even fires I've experienced have been where someone has bodged in any old wire and the supply or the unit it powers has taken a dislike to it. 

It's one thing being stuck at the side of the road at night in mid Wales trying to sort out the taped up mess of cables to a trailer socket that has shorted out on the spare wheel carrier of a van, because one bit of wire wasn't up to the job. It's quite another when you're riding a supposedly restored motorcycle at 50+ and smoke starts coming out from under the fuel tank, which is of course right between your knees. It turned out that the wire to the stop light wasn't up to the job, melted and shorted out on one of the fuel tank mounts.

If I remember right, that was two core which started life powering a mains radio, but it died on a six volt motorcycle.

That wasn't BLLX, but it could have been mine!

 

Agree completely.  Bodged house wiring is one of the biggest fire risks after cigarettes and candles.

And petrol is nasty too (as you are well aware) so anything electrical needs to be done properly around it.

Six volts off a lead acid battery is quite enough to start a fire on a near dead short.  As is a 5amp dcc booster without adequate protection (some of which it should have internally anyway).

My story is my mothers house where the previous occupants had fitted square pin socket to make it look like it was rewired but had left the round pin wiring behind them.  Not desperately safe and illegal even then!

Likewise, a power supply (big enough to flip solenoids) when connected permanently across one will pretty soon burn something out, which is why a properly designed CDU is a very good idea.  I built one umpty years ago, it’s a fairly simple circuit - trickle charge the capacitor then you’re limited to how much energy is available if a short is applied.

Think of it like a water tower - once it’s empty there’s nothing more to give but the trickle from the tap feeding.  What you add is a detector that the tank is empty but the outlet valve is shut then a big input pipe is used.  That’s how you get rapid recharge ready for the next point but still reduce the risk from a short across the output.  Things can’t heat up enough to catch light from a single capacitor discharge.

Paul.

 

[Graham T]

Happy to confess that I'm completely out of my depth here!

[Andrew P]

6 minutes ago, Graham T said:

Happy to confess that I'm completely out of my depth here!

Your not alone.