Track going filthy overnight

[Clagmeister]

Hello,

 

New layout is coming on nicely in the double skinned insulated shed.  I have a major issue though, no matter what I seem to do my track (N Gauge) having been cleaned one day by the next is absolutely filthy again.  Tried pure alcohol, vinegar, rubbers, cloth, they all get it clean but by the following day its back to square one.

 

I just can't work it out.  This is DC which might be a factor but my previous DCC layout Caolisport would last for days without a clean.  I have re used some old track I had, is that it or maybe its just the atmosphere in the shed.

 

Pulling my hair out at the moment, so any pointers or reasons why would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

Claggy

[mikeg]

Claggy I think you have a problem with humidity, is the insulation sealed? I found that before I lined my workshop tools soon had a patina of rust but as soon as I lined it with 3mm plywood and painted the roof with white acrylic paint within a week the tarnish stopped.

My layout in the garage does not have any problems as it is well ventilated, the problem is spider poo! one spot can stop a loco. I think it’s the thickness that causes the problem as it lifts the centre wheels on a fixed chassis.

 

Hope this may give you a clue 

 

regards mike 

[Clagmeister]

Thanks Mike, yes its insulated and sealed, I'll try some techniques to get the air flow going.  I think you could be right.  It is all boxed in with wood panelling, possibly too good and maybe made worse by the amount of ballasting, and scenery building and watered down PVA everywhere at the moment.

 

 

[Oldddudders]

A cheap dehumidifier might help. 

[Clagmeister]

2 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

A cheap dehumidifier might help. 

 

That was going to be my initial plan.  Seems like its fairly simple to sort, I thought I was going mad.  Well madder anyway.

 

Thanks.

[APOLLO]

Just been in my insulated garage. Not run the narrow gauge for a while and loco a bit hesitant. A quick squirt of Servisol 10 electrical contact cleaner works wonders. Just a little on a section of track, run loco over it then all is OK. Works on my OO loft layout also.

 

 

Brit15

[Nearholmer]

Try trickle-ventilation and a small oil-filled radiator set to 10 degrees. If the insulation is good, the latter will burn very little juice, but will keep things above "dew point", which can be around 6 degrees in some conditions. I use a 1kW heater set to 10 degrees and it keeps a well-insulated former garage condensation free, only "cutting in" for very short periods, even in mid-winter, bur a 750W or 800W one would probably do the same.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Clagmeister]

Humidity definetly the source of the problem.

 

This is at 2022 tonight, i guess it will be worse overnight tonight, moisture will just be collecting on the rails.

 

[Nearholmer]

That relative humidity is not actually all that high for a shed type environment at that temperature, but at about 5 degrees it will hit 100%RH, and if the air contacts anything cooler (say the inside off a single-glazed window) you will get condensation.

 

Even if the air temperature and the temperature of your track fall together, and you don't actually get condensation on the rails, once things reach 100%RH, the tiny water droplets in the saturated air can be enough to cause the sort of oxidisation(*) and dulling of nickel-silver that leads to problems with current collection.

 

As has emerged above, your choice is to dehumidify, or heat.

 

(*) Some will tell you that the oxides of nickel silver are conductive, which is not true at normal ambient conditions. Nickel Oxide is something called a "Mott Insulator".

 

 

 

Edited March 19, 2021 by Nearholmer

[rab]

12 hours ago, Clagmeister said:

Humidity definetly the source of the problem.

 

This is at 2022 tonight, i guess it will be worse overnight tonight, moisture will just be collecting on the rails.

 

Apologies for hijacking the thread, but I'm interested in the hygrometer.  Does it store readings, and can they be downloaded.

[GoingUnderground]

13 hours ago, Clagmeister said:

........ watered down PVA everywhere at the moment.

 

 

There's your cause, humidity. The water used to dilute the PVA has to go somewhere, and it will evaporate into the air in your shed. when the shed coold down you'll get condensation forming. As the weather isn't particularly warm at the moment it will take much longer for the PVA to dry out completely, possibly days or even weeks. Ventilation, low heat and a dehumidifier should speed up the process.

 

If you do buy a dehumidifier, get one to which you can attach a hosepipe so that the water it collects can drain away on its own. I have one with a collecting tank, and I need to remember to empty it. If you're worried about running costs by having it on all the time, buy a plug in timer and that way it will turn on and off at set times.

[Michael Hodgson]

I installed an old extractor fan in my garden shed just to keep air flow going.  It's not a sealed or insulated, so different from your problem.  But it's an easy thing to install.

[DCB]

A dehumidifier makes a huge differencebut can use a lot of electricity, it's best to arrange discharge outside the shed )hole in floor?) and not have to empty the reservoir.  A strategy we use in our band room, a former chapel, is a dehumidifier on a timer running 2 hours on 4 hours off with a couple of brushless 240 volt 60mm approx dia computer fans running 24/7 to suck out air from below the floor.

Is the track Nickle Silver?  We have a similar problem with Nickle Silver track in a very badly insulated removablle shed-let we call the Rabbit Hutch.   The track under cover oxidises enough to stop trains very quickly while the similar track laid outdoors in the rain and snow does not.
Simiarly the track inside the main shed gets very dirty by the door on a hinged lifting section where there is a) a window with a badly fitted blind, and  b) the baseboard is usually fixed in the vertical position clear of the door.  The main shed is wood, well insulated, has central heating set to stop it freezing and is lined with fibreboard.   It goes for months without track cleaning but some locos make it filthy quickly, those with traction tyres are worst, while those without ceramic capacitors for TV supression and those old mazak uninsulaed Romford wheels are worst offenders.

I had massive pick up issues on my garden railway, I went battery power which cured it.

[Nearholmer]

19 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

Is the track Nickle Silver?  We have a similar problem with Nickle Silver track in a very badly insulated removablle shed-let we call the Rabbit Hutch.   The track under cover oxidises enough to stop trains very quickly while the similar track laid outdoors in the rain and snow does not.

 

Tallies with my observation, which is that the best/worst condition for causing oxidisation of Nickel Silver is stagnant air, fully saturated with water (i.e. 100%RH), but no actual condensation or mass of liquid water. This "ideal" condition is created when dampish air and track cool down together, so remain at the same temperature, until 100%RH is reached, at which point the air is full of miniscule suspended water droplets.

 

I don't have a brilliant explanation as to why this condition causes lots of oxidisation, while having NS exposed to a downpour doesn't, but my hypothesis is that the oxidisation occurs where water, oxygen (air), and metal meet, and that the situation with the air full of miniscule droplets is the one that creates most such interfaces.

 

 

Edited March 19, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Clagmeister]

Thanks everyone.  So much knowledge and helpful ideas out there, its really appreciated. So far I have fitted two decent sized vents.  One high and one low on opposite walls.  Hasn't had much of an effect so far on humidity levels.  I think it might take a while.  Will possibly go along the dehumidifier route to help it along.

[Nearholmer]

Trickle ventilation is generally a good idea for multiple reasons, but it will only reduce humidity levels inside the shed if the outside humidity is lower than the inside. 

 

I've just checked on the Met Office site, and it says current figures where you are are 11 degrees, 74%RH, and that overnight it will get to 6 degrees, 98%RH, which lines-up very closely with what you were showing on the dial this morning, and tells me that Cockermouth is currently one heck of a damp-feeling place!

 

I know there are a lot of de-humidifier users here, but if it were me, and the shed is well insulated, I would go the other way, and buy a small heater to keep the temperature above that which will cause trouble.

[John Isherwood]

23 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Trickle ventilation is generally a good idea for multiple reasons, but it will only reduce humidity levels inside the shed if the outside humidity is lower than the inside. 

 

I've just checked on the Met Office site, and it says current figures where you are are 11 degrees, 74%RH, and that overnight it will get to 6 degrees, 98%RH, which lines-up very closely with what you were showing on the dial this morning, and tells me that Cockermouth is currently one heck of a damp-feeling place!

 

I know there are a lot of de-humidifier users here, but if it were me, and the shed is well insulated, I would go the other way, and buy a small heater to keep the temperature above that which will cause trouble.

 

My new railway room, converted from a brick-built garage, has just been handed-over by the builder; (photos soon).

 

As well as installing plenty of insulation and vapour barriers, he has installed an extractor fan - mainly to expel glue and paint fumes. However, it also has a humidity detector which switches it on when excess humidity is present; (this is adjustable).

 

I have a small oil-filled radiator, set to its lowest setting, which hardly ever turns on; and this and the fan seem to keep keep the railway room free of humidity and excessively low temperatures.

 

John Isherwood.

Edited March 19, 2021 by cctransuk

[wasdavetheroad]

I use a dehumidifier and suggest that the dessicating version is better for lower temperatures

[ikcdab]

My railway shed is 32 square metres, purpose built with good insulation in walls and roof. I have a single oil filled radiator which I leave on set to around 3 on a scale up to 7.

This keeps the whole place minimum of 10 degrees on the coldest nights.  I don't use dehumidifier and so far have felt no need for one.  I think having the background heat is more important for me. 

Ian

[Clagmeister]

So the vents are in, the oil heater is running on low.  Current temp in there is 13 degrees and 57%.  I have closed the door to see how it gets on before bed.  There is a rather good dew point calculator on the web that says 8 degrees at 57% for the dew point.  Cracking ideas for sorting it and to hear what others do to combat it.

 

Re the track, its all Peco N code 55, so not a clue what its made of.

Edited March 19, 2021 by Clagmeister
extra added

[Nearholmer]

58 minutes ago, Clagmeister said:

There is a rather good dew point calculator on the web that says 8 degrees at 57% for the dew point.

 

Something badly amiss there. Dew point occurs at 100%RH.

 

Given where you are starting from, dew point temperature is 4.67 degrees (my rough guess of 5 degrees earlier wasn't bad!).

 

Peco rail is Nickel Silver.

 

[Clagmeister]

i used this

 

A10888697483https://www.calculator.net/dew-point-calculator.html

[Nearholmer]

PS: Do you mean "oil heater" as in "paraffin stove", or "oil-filled, electrically powered radiator"?

 

If the former, for goodness sake leave the door open for a good long time before you enter tomorrow - the fumes could be bad!

[Nearholmer]

31 minutes ago, Clagmeister said:

A10888697483https://www.calculator.net/dew-point-calculator.html

 

Which returns 4.7 degrees, the correct value, when I use it.

 

Very odd!

[Matt C]

Just to say both Parafin and Calor gas heaters ADD moisture to the air as they burn