KR Models announced intention: Haydock Foundry 0-6-0WT 'Bellerophon'

[adb968008]

11 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

Continental locomotives have ever been more realistically (therefore, higher) priced, no doubt for good reason.

 

What I think you seem to object to, however, is the idea that KR might should be brought to task for not making fully working valve gear for the price point of £160, assuming KR was capable of doing so at any price. Yet I do not recall anyone here saying such a thing. What people have mainly said is that to advertise a loco as having fully working Gooch/Stephenson valve gear and then to produce one that hasn’t is problematic.   

 

A poor product that is not as described is not excused from being either of those things by its relative cheapness. The claim was that the valve gear would be fully working…

 

…ah, but I see you’ve already thought of that!

 

 

No, we really can't. It's quite clear what the natural and ordinary meaning of those words is.

 

 

Indeed, and no one suggested that anything would once the EPs were out. But it's a strange thing to say; would you not, say, ever critique a film on the basis that, now it's been made, there's no point?

 

 

And to come!

 

 

But is that how you live your life, to judge each new thing by the standard of the least adequate thing you can find to compare it with. Indeed, if so, I weep for you.

 

 

 

Oh your prophetic soul!

 

 

Like saying "work event" when you meant "party". Easily done, though.

 

 

So, it’s OK that you think it’s fine because it’s cheap and you always thought it would be a bit rubbish, but it’s also fine to point out that it could have been so much more!

 

As I have said, I'll accept the compromise and buy the thing. Would I have been happier to pay more if the thing had been better, had in fact been as advertised?

 

Yes, of course. But we do not have that option.

 

Buy it, don't buy it, but don't let anyone tell you that what you're seeing as it chugs round your layout is the motion of Gooch valve gear. It's nothing like. 

 

Instead of all those words, you could simply ..

 

just not buy it, if you don’t like it.

 

nothing is going to change what’s in the box, unless you change it yourself.

 

i’m not going to apologise for their word choice, but at least some of us heard it and believed differently from the outset.. and so are far less frustrated and more realistic.

Edited January 9 by adb968008

[Schooner]

23 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

relative

 

!

 

13 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

less frustrated and more realistic.

 

The point it not whether we accept KR Models' compromises are good ones - which is down to each of us to decide for ourselves and is, frankly, a boring topic.

 

It is whether it is possible for KR Models to have honoured their advertising, and delivered a model with fully working gear.

 

Many have said it is impossible.

 

I suggest it is possible.

 

Does it matter for Bellerophon? No, of course not. Does it matter for KR? Maybe. Does it matter to me, to inform what purchasing decisions I make in the future? Absolutely. 

 

 

Edited January 9 by Schooner

[Fair Oak Junction]

Another classic example of am I disappointed it isn't as good as it can be? Yes.

Am I still going to buy one because I love Bellerophon and no one else is going to make one? Yes.

[Edwardian]

24 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Instead of all those words, you could simply ..

 

just not buy it, if you don’t like it.

 

nothing is going to change what’s in the box, unless you change it yourself.

 

i’m not going to apologise for their word choice, but at least some of us heard it and believed differently from the outset.. and so are far less frustrated and more realistic.

 

Sorry, but I'm not going to put up with this nonsense.

 

I did not say I did not like it. I did not say I would not buy it. have said, repeatedly, that I am content to buy this - in fact, I have two on pre-order - including in the post you are responding to, so a good start is not to misrepesent what someone else has said. It's just manners, really. 

 

Further, I have been relatively generous in the past on the subject of KR's clear over-statements. Your evident gifts of divination do not, however, excuse KR from making claims that were objectively misleading and led many to expect more of this model then they will get. 

 

My point is simply this, we do at least now know what this model can and cannot deliver. It is important, I feel, that anyone exposed to the 'sales puff' who has not seen how the prototype actually moves, at least understands that the model will not deliver fully working Gooch valve gear despite what KR has suggested. The reality is that about half the motion works but not as the prototype, and the other half is static. 

 

Given the overstated claims by the manufacturer, it seemed important to me that these had facts set against them so that potential customers can make an informed choice. Why that should rattle anyone's cage is unclear.

 

If you want to debate with me, preferably do it off the forum, but come at me with better.

 

[Phil Parker]

3 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

If you want to debate with me, preferably do it off the forum, but come at me with better.

 

Please do. The rest of the forum is enough of a bin fire. Should you want handbags at dawn, there is a flat roof pub near here with an accommodating car park for just such events.

[Edwardian]

Just now, Phil Parker said:

 

Please do. The rest of the forum is enough of a bin fire. Should you want handbags at dawn, there is a flat roof pub near here with an accommodating car park for just such events.

 

I shall await PMs, then, knuckle duster in my pocket!

[jjb1970]

I think there are two questions:

 

Would it be possible to replicate the valve motion? and

Would doing so result in a better model?

 

The answer to the first is yes, if the development and manufacturing budget was set high enough and the manufacturer could live with the prospect of complaints and returns from heavy handed users.

 

To the second, I still question whether it would be better. I  suspect parts would be overscale and motion would be exaggerated to make it more noticeable. I have seen a lot of HO models with trick features which detracted from models in my opinion.

 

I think KR made a big mistake overpromising and not delivering what they said they would. On balance I also think the end result is a better compromise for an RTR model.

[Edwardian]

28 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

I think there are two questions:

 

Would it be possible to replicate the valve motion? and

Would doing so result in a better model?

 

The answer to the first is yes, if the development and manufacturing budget was set high enough and the manufacturer could live with the prospect of complaints and returns from heavy handed users.

 

To the second, I still question whether it would be better. I  suspect parts would be overscale and motion would be exaggerated to make it more noticeable. I have seen a lot of HO models with trick features which detracted from models in my opinion.

 

I think KR made a big mistake overpromising and not delivering what they said they would. On balance I also think the end result is a better compromise for an RTR model.

 

 

I suspect that's the nub of it. Whether it would have been possible to make all parts of the motion work, and work as they should, at scale must be very doubtful indeed. 

 

This is largely why I'm pretty sanguine about the compromises, and have ordered two of the beasties. 

 

Also I'm not personally bothered about what KR have said, but that's only because I have dug a little deeper than the fluff and made sure I have understood the posts about this issue made by the Stationmaster and others, so I feel I make my purchase eyes wide open. 

 

It's the "don't look up!" mentalists that get on my t1ts!

[Edwardian]

In deference to Mr Parker, who clearly had a trying day yesterday, I will leave it at...

 

[sigh]

[96701]

I've quite enjoyed the last few posts. The trouble is, I've got through an entire bag of popcorn.

[Edwardian]

8 minutes ago, 96701 said:

I've quite enjoyed the last few posts. The trouble is, I've got through an entire bag of popcorn.

 

Well we should stop before you eat yourself to death then

[The Stationmaster]

Somewhat to my surprise I see from a video of the EP that Hornby's 'Locomotion No.1' appears to have 'fully working' valvegear, i.e all the visible parts which should move do move, in the correct manner.  Of course there are no particularly long rods in any part of the 'motion'.  Just saying.

[Edwardian]

26 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Somewhat to my surprise I see from a video of the EP that Hornby's 'Locomotion No.1' appears to have 'fully working' valvegear, i.e all the visible parts which should move do move, in the correct manner.  Of course there are no particularly long rods in any part of the 'motion'.  Just saying.

 

Let's hope so, otherwise, see you on the other side... 

 

 

 

Edited January 10 by Edwardian

[BVMR21]

According to KR Models, Bellerophon is now awaiting production.