Solar panels

[hayfield]

Tony

 

It is good to know that you now have a export contract, I was told by someone (UK Power Network?) that whilst the process of setting up an account you should be compensated for the power you send to the network prior to the contract starting, For me we were talking about 4 weeks and a very low tariff. If like you it took months I would be chasing a rebate

 

The other thing is the wide difference between companies on the terms they pay. I get 7.5p per kwh, no tie in and paid monthly, some are still paying as little as 3p per kwh and take ages to pay, its simply not on and with good companies like Octopus not taking on new customers the system is broken. Companies like Shell, British Gas, E.ON and SSE paying either 3p or 3.5p and EDF paying 1.5p. Its all very wrong

 

https://solarenergyuk.org/resource/smart-export-guarantee/

 

Simply I think there should be a minimum export tariff as well as the maximum import rates and payment frequency should also be imposed. Here we have some of the biggest energy companies making huge profits short changing their customers

Edited May 20, 2022 by hayfield

[SamThomas]

6 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 EDF paying 1.5p. Its all very wrong

I'm glad we are on an early "Feed-in-Tariff" - EDF pay us just over 20p/kWh for what we generate, it makes no difference if we use it of "feed it in".

 

People who installed solar panels even earier are on something like 45p/kWh.

 

AFAIK, these schemes are govenment backed so the Gnomes of France are simply acting as agents.

[hayfield]

14 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

I'm glad we are on an early "Feed-in-Tariff" - EDF pay us just over 20p/kWh for what we generate, it makes no difference if we use it of "feed it in".

 

People who installed solar panels even earier are on something like 45p/kWh.

 

AFAIK, these schemes are govenment backed so the Gnomes of France are simply acting as agents.

 

The Feed In Tariff ended in April 2019 and was designed to encourage people to start using solar panels, so I am not too bothered about the pioneers getting a bonus, but it may well impact on who they can deal with plus what import tariffs are available. What we also have to take into account is the cost, My friends who have a FIT tariff paid many times more for their system than I did, so perhaps we don't need the subsidised tariff to make the difference

 

As I said earlier firstly I chose a smaller system as I was primarily interested in reducing my energy costs, and 80% of the time my biggest saving in £'s is what I have used rather than exported

 

As I posted the cost of batteries has reduced by 30% from last year, however the sums still do not add up in my case, on a financial basis. 

 

I think the schemes are funded from what we pay in daily standing charges, last year I was paying 23p per day, now its 36p but I am getting a loyalty discount of 13p per day ? So I am still paying 23p per day, many others are having to pay the £4 extra a month increase

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, hayfield said:

Simply I think there should be a minimum export tariff as well as the maximum import rates and payment frequency should also be imposed.

 

As I don't have solar I have no axe to grind here, but I agree with you.

 

It seems to me that the government should protect those who invest in self-generation if they want to accelerate the migration away from imported fuels in the direction of national self sufficiency in order to maintain continuity of supply, particularly in the light of the Ukrainian situation and the enviornmental desire to move to electric cars.  There is also a macroeconomic factor, in that generation where the power is used reduces the capacity otherwise needed for transmission from places like offshore wind farms, so domestic solar must be reducing at least slightly what National Grid has to invest in its infrastructure.  This is much more true if you have batteries which enable you to store what you generate to charge your EV rather than sell during the day but buy back again later.

 

I don't know whether the export rate for the early solar installations were an unduly over-generous incentive but in the longer term the rate paid to domestic generators should be linked proprtionately to the market rate per unit as paid to the big boys.  The companies probably incur a higher cost in the metering and billing in both directions than is applicable to my old fashioned simple meter, but that extra cost should also be recovered in a regulated manner analogous to my fixed standing charge that I pay whether I use any power or not.  I can see a justification for different rules on standing charges depending on what type of installation you have - and no doubt that will be used against me at some point to force me to take a smart meter.

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

As I said earlier firstly I chose a smaller system as I was primarily interested in reducing my energy costs, and 80% of the time my biggest saving in £'s is what I have used rather than exported

 

 

Yes indeed, but it's bound to be if they don't pay you a fair rate for what you export.

 

If you had bought a bigger system, one that generates more than you use, you would effectively investing in your own elecricity generation business, even though it won't make you as rich as the boss of EDF.  Whether of not you could do that viably that depends partly on your premises and partly on your personal finances, but if at least some people can do that, it must be something the government ought to encourage.  Government money is always tight, but I don't see that it costs a government anything to devise a fairer price regulation regime that gives due credit to those who act as suppliers as well as protecting (to the extent that they can) people like me who are simple purchasers.

[hayfield]

21 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

As I don't have solar I have no axe to grind here, but I agree with you.

 

It seems to me that the government should protect those who invest in self-generation if they want to accelerate the migration away from imported fuels in the direction of national self sufficiency in order to maintain continuity of supply, particularly in the light of the Ukrainian situation and the enviornmental desire to move to electric cars.  There is also a macroeconomic factor, in that generation where the power is used reduces the capacity otherwise needed for transmission from places like offshore wind farms, so domestic solar must be reducing at least slightly what National Grid has to invest in its infrastructure.  This is much more true if you have batteries which enable you to store what you generate to charge your EV rather than sell during the day but buy back again later.

 

I don't know whether the export rate for the early solar installations were an unduly over-generous incentive but in the longer term the rate paid to domestic generators should be linked proprtionately to the market rate per unit as paid to the big boys.  The companies probably incur a higher cost in the metering and billing in both directions than is applicable to my old fashioned simple meter, but that extra cost should also be recovered in a regulated manner analogous to my fixed standing charge that I pay whether I use any power or not.  I can see a justification for different rules on standing charges depending on what type of installation you have - and no doubt that will be used against me at some point to force me to take a smart meter.

 

Michael

 

The older FIT rates were there to kickstart the domestic take up of solar panels, especially when installation costs were very high and energy was cheap, its history and a very minute part of the market.

 

As for the price we get for exporting power, we cannot expect anything like retail prices, or even wholesale prices, as we are producing low volumes of production and selling it at the cheapest part of the day.

 

But this does not mean to say we should be short changed. In normal times we can change supplier, at the moment many companies are not accepting new customers so this is not an option for most. These low payers do need to be encouraged to be much fairer to their customers

[hayfield]

57 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Yes indeed, but it's bound to be if they don't pay you a fair rate for what you export.

 

If you had bought a bigger system, one that generates more than you use, you would effectively investing in your own elecricity generation business, even though it won't make you as rich as the boss of EDF.  Whether of not you could do that viably that depends partly on your premises and partly on your personal finances, but if at least some people can do that, it must be something the government ought to encourage.  Government money is always tight, but I don't see that it costs a government anything to devise a fairer price regulation regime that gives due credit to those who act as suppliers as well as protecting (to the extent that they can) people like me who are simple purchasers.

 

The main problem is that energy companies need power most when the sun stops shinning, recently a wind turbine might have been a better investment 

[Michael Hodgson]

8 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

The main problem is that energy companies need power most when the sun stops shinning, recently a wind turbine might have been a better investment 

Indeed, but can you envisage a street in the future having a ruddy great fan on every chimney stack where once there were TV aerials or satellite dishes?

[SamThomas]

Our system*** can generate a maximum of 4kW & we also have a "Powervault".

 

If we take into account the saving on power supplied from the grid we "broke even" on our investment after about four years. We signed a 20 year contract and during that time our the FIT cannot be reduced, but it can go up & had done so slightly.

 

I cannot quote actual firgures because I'm not obsessed with working it out to the penny, but I do know that it has been a good envestment.

 

We did not at installing a wind turbine but they are very, very expensive and there will be times when we will still have to use the grid as well as what we produce.

 

*** German Inverter & panels.

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

You must be one of the lucky few to recover the outlay after only four years.

Of course rocketing energy prices must have accelerated payback period beyond expectations for more recent installations. 

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

 

As for the price we get for exporting power, we cannot expect anything like retail prices, or even wholesale prices, as we are producing low volumes of production and selling it at the cheapest part of the day.

There is a market price at the cheapest part of the day, as the electricity industry sets market prices in half-hour windows.  Ultimately the retail price will be also based on time windows, which is one of the reasons they are pushing us all to take smart meters, since the industry thus knows when each customer is using his power. 

 

Solar, tidal and wind generators all produce at times which are not necessarily convenient in demand terms, and all on their own different cycles.  Energy storage and timings are therefore very big factors in the way the whole economy and our use of power will develop, and it's just unfortunate that there is relatively little industrial scale storage capacity like Dinorwic at present or even in the foreseeable short term future.

 

The retail tariff will change from a uniform price per kWH, and we will all learn to put the dishwasher on at the cheapest time of day, and we'll need smart appliances (or adapters) to schedule that for us. 

 

Night storage heaters and white meters were a technically inefficient way of matching the timing of supply to demand.  Historically the cheapest part of the day was when many business had shut for the day and we were not using any appliances at home because we were all asleep.  However if we have a lot of solar generation, it could become economic to move our usage to daytime.    EVs will also impact timing of demand, in that most people want to charge at home, and that means overnight if the car's parked at work all day - unless of course, the factory car parks were to install chargers to do it in daytime!  Or maybe in time people will start using the family's little-used second car as a battery to store power from the roof to run their heating and lighting in the evening.

 

 

[hayfield]

I thought yesterday was going to be a washout, we went to our local garden nursery and even in their glass house you had to dodge the drips coming from the roof. I thought the rain was forecast to stop late morning but by 2pm we had hardly generated a kwh. Whilst there was a lot of cloud about by early evening the sun was strong enough to generate just over 6 kwh, which is the anticipated daily production from our initial quotation. It also just kept this months daily average at 10 kwh

 

Today is also been forecasted as cloudy so it will be interesting to see production levels as rain is not forecasted, I have estimated my net cost for electricity this week will be between £3.50 and £4 which will have reduced my bill by between 66% to 75%. 

 

Certainly I now believe the best way to help those in fuel poverty social housing should be fitted with solar panels, certainly all new house builds as the cost of fitting these during building will be a small fraction of the total build cost, but will make a big difference to the tenants

 

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by hayfield

[hayfield]

I have just finished the latest billing period for April/May. My bill was £60.76 and I used 280 kwh which was charged at 18.08p per kwh  at todays rate the bill would be about £91.98

 

I think I have imported about 114 kwh of power, some of the saving has been the switch of an electrically heated shower to one heated by gas

I have calculated that The cost of imported power will be £40.50 however I will receive credits of £15.50 for my exports. Its quite frightening to see how much I would have been paying

 

I have used 83 kwh of my own power plus 114 kwh imported so my total usage of 197kwh. Had I not fitted solar panels (and changed the shower heat source) My bill would have been a staggering £92, as it is it will be £25 plus a bit (£4/5?) for gas 

 

This is the first time I have worked out what my old bill would have been at todays rate, a staggering difference 

 

edit

 

Forgot to add, still averaging nearly 10 kwh of power generation a day, I think during the billing period it was 290 kwh, April was 295 kwh production and as of yesterday it was 249.8 kwh for the 25 days. 

Edited May 26, 2022 by hayfield

[Tony_S]

Last month we imported 35kWh of electricity. So far this month we have imported 18kWh and on many days have imported none at all. We still use the gas boiler for heating our hot water and we have a gas hob in the kitchen. I did see how useful it would be to try using using our solar power to heat the water with the immersion heater but it is only a short element really as a backup for boiler failure rather than something to heat a whole tank. Experiments continue!

Edited May 26, 2022 by Tony_S

[hayfield]

Tony

 

That is really a saving if your consumption is similar to ours !!

[Graham108]

1 hour ago, Tony_S said:

Last month we imported 35kWh of electricity. So far this month we have imported 18kWh and on many days have imported none at all. We still use the gas boiler for heating our hot water and we have a gas hob in the kitchen. I did see how useful it would be to try using using our solar power to heat the water with the immersion heater but it is only a short element really as a backup for boiler failure rather than something to heat a whole tank. Experiments continue!

Have you looked at a device called iBoost? It uses excess generated electricity, so it isn't sent back to the grid, to work the immersion element on your boiler.

[Tony_S]

Just now, Graham108 said:

Have you looked at a device called iBoost? It uses excess generated electricity, so it isn't sent back to the grid, to work the immersion element on your boiler.

Thank you. Yes I did but it would have the same result with our tiny immersion heater as me doing the switching. If I had planned all this I would have had a bigger tank with a lower side feed immersion heater port. My brother in law has an iBoost (or similar). However it uses a detector to identify when surplus electricity is being exported. We already have such a device that diverts to our batteries. Not sure if they can work together. For the summer a timer might be adequate.  The chap who is fitted all our central heating upgrade a  few years ago is working over the road for a few weeks. I will try and ask about how easy it would be to replace the immersion heater with something capable of heating  more than the top of the tank. 
Tony
 

[hayfield]

My estimates were about right, I had to import £40.49 (inc £6.82 standing charge)  and received £15.34 export credit, net cost £24.89 against £65 # (the cost of what I used totally) had I not had solar panels.

 

Yesterdays help from the government will help all of us as its not just electricity but gas that has gone through the roof, despite using a quarter of the amount of gas last month against the 3 highest use months I was charged £45.49. I have calculated my costs next winter against last years usage and the highest usage (6) months will be over £1000 (the worst two months will be over £200 pm),

 

For me the new government grants will really cushion what I will be paying, I am now interested in how much I can build up my reserves in the next few warmer months so the increase in my monthly payments will stay much the same

 

The message I have taken on board is to both plan ahead and monitor my costs

 

# A few days ago I calculated last years usage would cost today £90, this year my KWH used has dropped ( did my electrically heated shower use that much power? )

[AndyID]

I'd like to use solar energy but the economics don't work out here (at the moment). I think we are paying about 25% of what you pay. Currently one kWh costs $0.068 (6.8 cents). A lot of that might be to do with local hydroelectric generation.

 

Our utility company does offer a scheme where you can buy some panels in their solar farm and use the energy captured to offset your consumption cost but we are too old to make it a worthwhile investment 😀

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, AndyID said:

I'd like to use solar energy but the economics don't work out here (at the moment). I think we are paying about 25% of what you pay. Currently one kWh costs $0.068 (6.8 cents). A lot of that might be to do with local hydroelectric generation.

 

Our utility company does offer a scheme where you can buy some panels in their solar farm and use the energy captured to offset your consumption cost but we are too old to make it a worthwhile investment 😀

 

Andy 

 

The problem here is we have let the nuclear industry run down here over the past 20 years and have relied on cheap oil. Having said this the UK is trying to catch up, Close to us is Bradwell Nuclear power station, its coming to the end of its useful life and a replacement is being planned, but planning  let alone building takes for ever, They are cheap to run but the build costs are massive. Wind and solar farms are popping up all over, we will have a solar farm close to the village soon.

 

But our biggest issue is the cost of oil. Energy suppliers have their energy rates capped, so as wholesale energy is in the most brought in advance and we are not paying the full price at peak times, there will be a catch up period once rates drop.

 

Last year my gas cost me about £600, this coming winter 6 months at todays rates (the cap is going up in October)  I think will cost me over £1000

Likewise last May I paid £60 for my electricity, had I used the same amount I would have paid £90 ish

 

My solar panel system was projected to be cost neutral after 10 years, that was importing power at 16p per kwh and selling it at 3p per kwh  (the quote was adjusted for inflation and reduction in efficiency over that 10 year period)

 

In less than 12 months power now costs 29.23p per kwh and export rates I receive is 7.5p per kwh. That's an 82.5% increase on import costs and 250% on export rates against the projected figures I used in my calculations, plus the money I used was getting nearly 0% interest. (I actually worked a couple of extra months after my planned retirement date to fund a trip to Italy to celebrate our retirement, covid stopped this so I used the funds to buy the system (best 2 months work ever) as it happens we would have brought it anyway). Yesterday my net cost to my supplier was negative.

 

If somebody owns their property and has a little spare cash on deposit its a no brainer, now I think its even worth getting a further advance on your mortgage as rates are so low, and power so expensive.

 

An estate agent last year said if nothing else it makes the house energy performance report look much better, now it must be an added benefit/selling point in reducing the house's energy costs.

Edited May 28, 2022 by hayfield

[SamThomas]

3 hours ago, AndyID said:

 Our utility company does offer a scheme where you can buy some panels in their solar farm and use the energy captured to offset your consumption cost.

Now that is a good idea & a way for people who would love to "do their bit" invest in solar - people who don't live on the top floor of a black, people who tend to rent or move house often for work, retirement home dwellers & so on.

[AndyID]

14 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

Andy 

 

The problem here is we have let the nuclear industry run down here over the past 20 years and have relied on cheap oil. Having said this the UK is trying to catch up, Close to us is Bradwell Nuclear power station, its coming to the end of its useful life and a replacement is being planned, but planning  let alone building takes for ever, They are cheap to run but the build costs are massive. Wind and solar farms are popping up all over, we will have a solar farm close to the village soon.

 

But our biggest issue is the cost of oil. Energy suppliers have their energy rates capped, so as wholesale energy is in the most brought in advance and we are not paying the full price at peak times, there will be a catch up period once rates drop.

 

Last year my gas cost me about £600, this coming winter 6 months at todays rates (the cap is going up in October)  I think will cost me over £1000

Likewise last May I paid £60 for my electricity, had I used the same amount I would have paid £90 ish

 

My solar panel system was projected to be cost neutral after 10 years, that was importing power at 16p per kwh and selling it at 3p per kwh  (the quote was adjusted for inflation and reduction in efficiency over that 10 year period)

 

In less than 12 months power now costs 29.23p per kwh and export rates I receive is 7.5p per kwh. That's an 82.5% increase on import costs and 250% on export rates against the projected figures I used in my calculations, plus the money I used was getting nearly 0% interest. (I actually worked a couple of extra months after my planned retirement date to fund a trip to Italy to celebrate our retirement, covid stopped this so I used the funds to buy the system (best 2 months work ever) as it happens we would have brought it anyway). Yesterday my net cost to my supplier was negative.

 

If somebody owns their property and has a little spare cash on deposit its a no brainer, now I think its even worth getting a further advance on your mortgage as rates are so low, and power so expensive.

 

An estate agent last year said if nothing else it makes the house energy performance report look much better, now it must be an added benefit/selling point in reducing the house's energy costs.

 

Thanks for that John.

 

The shed put up a few years ago would probably make a reasonable solar collector. It's 36 feet long and 20 feet wide and oriented pretty much east-west. That should allow at least 300 square feet of South facing panels. If electricity costs take-off here we might do it and we'd probably get the investment back if we sell the place. TBH we have kicked around the idea of returning to the UK. The political climate here is ........well, I better not say what I really think. Unfortunately I'm 73 now and I think it would be a bit too much of an upheaval to move again.

 

Cheers,

 

Andy

[hayfield]

6 hours ago, AndyID said:

 

Thanks for that John.

 

The shed put up a few years ago would probably make a reasonable solar collector. It's 36 feet long and 20 feet wide and oriented pretty much east-west. That should allow at least 300 square feet of South facing panels. If electricity costs take-off here we might do it and we'd probably get the investment back if we sell the place. TBH we have kicked around the idea of returning to the UK. The political climate here is ........well, I better not say what I really think. Unfortunately I'm 73 now and I think it would be a bit too much of an upheaval to move again.

 

Cheers,

 

Andy

 

I think many would swap with you, I don't think many understand the full problems that lie ahead with fuel prices. Especially if their meters are not read regularly. Two months ago there was a sharp rise in prices, which in the gas supply have been slightly hidden by the dip in consumption from the better/warmer weather (our neighbours have even turned their central heating off). Being a "southern softy" its nice to have it on for when the temperature drops.

 

The good news is the unpresented government support from the government, being retired we get a £200  winter fuel allowance this is being topped up by another £700 this year, which will go along way in covering the gas rises, plus this last 2 months we finally got to be using less on energy in £'s than our monthly payments, and our financial buffer in our account is increasing again. To be quite honest I rather some of my savings are with my energy supplier than our bank

 

We look at some of the things that go on over the pond and wonder why the people of the USA put up with it !!  But I guess the majority are not affected at all

[hayfield]

I have limped over the last day of May and just managed to keep the average production at 10 KWH per day, the last 4 days have been a bit wet and cloudy but the monthly production was 310.6 kwh. Unlike gas my electrical power consumption has remained broadly the same each month, the last 3 months has seen me use more of my own generated power, but the last 2 months export has shot up amplified by the jump in what Octopus now pays per kwh, 9 months down the line with the best 3 months ahead it looks very much like I will exceed the production they assumed our system would produce in a year ( I need to average  270 kwh per month) £'s wise the projections have been blown away by the massive increase in tariffs. Not had the final export data yet for yesterday but it will be much the same as the day before

 

Also yesterday I had a message from my central heating system, I use a Tado (intelligent) thermostat. It reports that in May we used 32% less gas than we did last year (but it still cost a fortune!!) The strange thing is how does it know other than it knows the make of our boiler and how long it has it on, but it is neither connected to our smart meter, nor do I input our usage data and its not that we have turned off the central heating as it has come on as and when needed over the past 4 days

 

Anyway both sets of information are encouraging on the cost fronts

[Graham108]

Has anybody with SP's heard anything about extra income being available for earlier installations? I've been approached by a company stating that up to £8000 income can be achieved by make a change to the invertor but I can't find any information on this online. I have an appointment with them in July but I'd like to be forewarned as to what it's all about.