Edwardian GWR turntable for Sherton Abbas

[wenlock]

If my planned workshop extension takes place this year and it's still an "if" I'm afraid, then I'll have the space to model the engine shed and turntable that's as yet only existed in my imagination

My layout "Sherton Abbas" 

employs a road overbridge as a scenic break and it is the other side of this bridge where I envisage the turntable/stabling facilities being placed.  At this point I'm very much at the planning stage and enjoying myself doodling plans, but any information about turntables would be very useful!  Obviously Sherton Abbas is fictitious, but is based upon Great Western practices circa 1905 and so I'm looking for advice about the type of turntable that would likely have been employed at this time. 

 

I'm assuming that something around 50 foot or less diameter would be appropriate for my time period, but am I constrained by a GWR style turntable with the raised girder sides, or could something from another manufacturer been likely?

 

I've done a bit of research online to find out what's commercially available, but have probably missed some candidates

 

This 48 foot specimen might be suitable https://www.kitwoodhillmodels.com/7mm-scale-48ft-turntable/  or possibly some thing from here  https://greenwoodmodelrailwayproducts.co.uk/product-category/turntables/ but they are probably too large.

 

Any advice greatly received and appreciated!

 

BW

 

Dave

 

 

[Miss Prism]

As far as I know, the 'raised girder sides' style came in later with the longer turntables. Before that, flat platters were I believe the norm, e.g. Fairford (which I think was 45'):

https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=167549&page=652

 

The one at Penzance station was even shorter, but I can't find the dimension recorded anywhere. (40' ??)

 

Btw, I'm amazed you feel the need/desire for a turntable at a place like Sherton Abbas.

 

[wenlock]

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

As far as I know, the 'raised girder sides' style came in later with the longer turntables. Before that, flat platters were I believe the norm, e.g. Fairford (which I think was 45'):

https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=167549&page=652

 

Thanks Russ, that's exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of, what a lovely picture

 

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

The one at Penzance station was even shorter, but I can't find the dimension recorded anywhere. (40' ??)

 

Yes that one at Plymouth must have caused real problems, I'm sure I read that the Duke class had to use the small 2000 gal tenders to fit on it!

 

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

Btw, I'm amazed you feel the need/desire for a turntable at a place like Sherton Abbas.

 

I'm still very much at the pondering stage, but I've got a River class to build and It won't look right running backwards pulling my clerestory stock. 

In my imagination Sherton is at least as big as Fairford, so why don't you think a turntable would be appropriate?

 

BW

 

Dave

[Compound2632]

I'm with Russ on this one. Your "inspiration", Abbotsbury, didn't have a turntable. There's a reason the Great Western had that infestation of tank engines. 

 

How long is the Sherton Abbas branch? The Fairford branch was over twenty miles long, which I think goes some way to explaining why Fairford had a turntable.

 

There's a "Pictorial History" of nearly everything Great Western, as @Mikkel recently reminded us. Is there one of turntables? The information I'm thinking I'd want to be looking for is the dates at which larger sizes of turntables were first introduced, and where. C. Hawkins & G. Reeve, LMS Engine Sheds Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1981) gives a list of Midland turntables c. 1911. The vast majority are 42 ft diameter - capable of turning any 6-wheeled tender engine and the smallest 4-4-0s. 50 ft and larger tables were only found at the major locomotive sheds and stations. 

 

Sorry to be such a miserable spoil sport.

[kitpw]

Flicking through 'Great Western Engine Sheds' (Lyons & Mountford), I picked out these references to

turntables in stations which are not dissimilar to Sherton Abbas in size - most a little larger but not a completely different scale of operation. The dates are the plan dates from the book:-

Avonmouth 1910 - 60' maintained by Midland Railway
Chard 1894 - 41' 3" (joint operation with LSWR)
Clevedon 1869 - 35'
Ferndale 1880 - 45'
Malvern Wells 1890 - 40' (removed May 1913) - photo shows flat deck tt
Market Drayton 1889 - 40' tt provided by GWR
Pontlottyn 1925 - 30' (B & M)
Tavistock 1895 - tt replaced 1900 with 45' 3" tt
Watchet c1870 - 37' 8"

 

The 35' to 45' range seems to be appropriate and flat topped (as per Miss Prism's comment abovet).  Oddly, Fairford isn't listed in the above book.

 

KitPW

A 1920s 7mm terminus layout: Swan Hill - https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/blog/2502-swan-hill/

 

[Western Star]

2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 I'm amazed you feel the need/desire for a turntable at a place like Sherton Abbas.

 

Rule No.1 applies here....  and I think that a small shed yard with coal and water is just  what the GWR could have done if a director of the board had bought a local manor, grange or castle - maybe even fishing rights to a nearby River.

 

44 minutes ago, wenlock said:

I've got a River class to build and It won't look right running backwards pulling my clerestory stock. 

 

I do so agree...  and once the commuters take residence then think about how the double-ended concertina slip is going to be returned to Paddington after the previous night's working.

 

regards, Graham

Edited May 27, 2021 by Western Star

[wenlock]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm with Russ on this one. Your "inspiration", Abbotsbury, didn't have a turntable.  

 

 

 

Hi Stephen, 

 

Although my station building is based upon Abbotsbury, albeit made from brick, the location is actually Sherbourne in Dorset.  The name was taken from the Wessex novels of Thomas Hardy, ensuring that Sherton's location is completely fictitious 

 

15 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 There's a reason the Great Western had that infestation of tank engines. 

 

But an absolutely delightful infestation!

 

16 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

How long is the Sherton Abbas branch? The Fairford branch was over twenty miles long, which I think goes some way to explaining why Fairford had a turntable.

 

 I haven't really decided how long the branch is, I guess that's one of the joys of modelling a fictitious station!  In the Queens, Rivers and Stellas thread (I've put a link below) Mike, (Station Master) said this ..........

 

As far as turntables are concerned they were in those days very much a matter of interest to the Board of Trade and the 1892 and 1902 versions of 'the Requirements' effectively barred tender-first running over a distance greater than 15 miles (provided that even then stations were no more than 3 miles apart and trains stopped at all stations) - in other words all termini and junctions had to have turntables unless the distance of running between them was 15 miles or less. No doubt tender first running did take place but it was clearly very actively discouraged by the BoT in that era.

 

 

25 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

There's a "Pictorial History" of nearly everything Great Western, as @Mikkel recently reminded us. Is there one of turntables? The information I'm thinking I'd want to be looking for is the dates at which larger sizes of turntables were first introduced, and where. C. Hawkins & G. Reeve, LMS Engine Sheds Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1981) gives a list of Midland turntables c. 1911. The vast majority are 42 ft diameter - capable of turning any 6-wheeled tender engine and the smallest 4-4-0s. 50 ft and larger tables were only found at the major locomotive sheds and stations. 

If there is a "Pictorial History of Great Western Turntables" I haven't found it, there's definitely a gap in the market there

 

27 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Sorry to be such a miserable spoil sport.

Lol!  All grist to the mill and glad to hear your thoughts

[wenlock]

30 minutes ago, kitpw said:

Flicking through 'Great Western Engine Sheds' (Lyons & Mountford), I picked out these references to

turntables in stations which are not dissimilar to Sherton Abbas in size - most a little larger but not a completely different scale of operation. The dates are the plan dates from the book:-

Avonmouth 1910 - 60' maintained by Midland Railway
Chard 1894 - 41' 3" (joint operation with LSWR)
Clevedon 1869 - 35'
Ferndale 1880 - 45'
Malvern Wells 1890 - 40' (removed May 1913) - photo shows flat deck tt
Market Drayton 1889 - 40' tt provided by GWR
Pontlottyn 1925 - 30' (B & M)
Tavistock 1895 - tt replaced 1900 with 45' 3" tt
Watchet c1870 - 37' 8"

 

The 35' to 45' range seems to be appropriate and flat topped (as per Miss Prism's comment abovet).  Oddly, Fairford isn't listed in the above book.

 

KitPW

A 1920s 7mm terminus layout: Swan Hill - https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/blog/2502-swan-hill/

 

Thanks Kit, that's really useful information!  Something around the 45 foot mark looks to be about right.  The 7mm one from Kitwoodhill is pretty close at 48 foot.

[wenlock]

12 minutes ago, Western Star said:

 

Rule No.1 applies here....  and I think that a small shed yard with coal and water is just  what the GWR could have done if a director of the board had bought a local manor, grange or castle - maybe even fishing rights to a nearby River.

 

Hi Graham, 

 

Sherton is pretty idyllic, I'm sure the directors are forming an orderly queue

 

15 minutes ago, Western Star said:

 

I do so agree...  and once the commuters take residence then think about how the double-ended concertina slip is going to be returned to Paddington after the previous night's working.

 

regards, Graham

Exactly!  Once electric lighting arrives in the town Sherton will be thoroughly "Up and coming!"

 

BW

 

Dave

[Miss Prism]

5 minutes ago, wenlock said:

Something around the 45 foot mark looks to be about right.  The 7mm one from Kitwoodhill is pretty close at 48 foot.

 

I think you might need 48' to reasonably clear your Dean Goods wheels.

[wenlock]

1 minute ago, Miss Prism said:

 

I think you might need 48' to reasonably clear your Dean Goods wheels.

Thanks Russ, some judicious loco measuring is in order!

[JimC]

There were a *lot* of turntables in the 19thC, including ones used just for tank engines. Princetown, where it was used for turning 0-6-0Ts with snowploughs is an extreme example.  I'm away from the research I did a while ago, but I only recall one short turntable with side girders (Newcastle Emlyn), which was a sort of mini version of the classic GWR one. Others were all undergirder that I saw.

Edited May 27, 2021 by JimC
add Newcastle Emlyn

[wenlock]

2 minutes ago, JimC said:

There were a *lot* of turntables in the 19thC, including ones used just for tank engines. Princetown, where it was used for turning 0-6-0Ts with snowploughs is an extreme example.  I'm away from the research I did a while ago, but I only recall one short turntable with side girders, which was a sort of mini version of the classic GWR one. Others were all undergirder that I saw.

Thanks Jim, that's useful, I must admit I prefer the under girder style

 

BW

 

Dave

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

I think you might need 48' to reasonably clear your Dean Goods wheels.

 

If Midland 8'0" + 8'6" wheelbase tender engines were routinely turned on 42 ft tables, I can't see how a Dean Goods would need more.

[kitpw]

11 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

If Midland 8'0" + 8'6" wheelbase tender engines were routinely turned on 42 ft tables, I can't see how a Dean Goods would need more.

...mine doesn't, measuring 300mm overall the brakes (engine & tender), so wheelbase a bit less.  45' is 315mm. 

 

Is there any truth in a half recollection I have that (particularly branch) coaches were also turned to even out wear or is that complete nonsense (and or defective memory)?

[Compound2632]

The overall wheelbase of a 4F is 38'9". A Dean Goods is 37'0" (scaling off an Ian Beattie drawing that shows a 2,500 gal tender, so one might add a couple of feet for a 3,500 gal tender. So, should fit a 42 ft table!

[Miss Prism]

Over guard irons (which is always sensible), a Dean Goods and a 2500g tender need about 45' clearance.

 

To balance the loco on the table (not a model necessity, admittedly) would need a bit more, hence if there is a readymade 48' Kitwoodhill one, that sounds ideal to me.

 

 

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Over guard irons (which is always sensible), a Dean Goods and a 2500g tender need about 45' clearance.

 

To balance the loco on the table (not a model necessity, admittedly) would need a bit more, hence if there is a readymade 48' Kitwoodhill one, that sounds ideal to me.

 

Sorry to bang on but the same criteria apply to a Midland 0-6-0, for which 42 ft tables were adequate. I can see no engineering reason why Great Western engines should be any different.

[Miss Prism]

I don't doubt 42' tables were 'adequate'. Over guard irons, which seems a comfortable minimum (to me) for getting on a table and off again, I think a typical Midland 0-6-0 is a bit shorter than a Dean Goods. Having bits of a loco hanging off the ends of a table seems undignified.

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

That Dubs 0-6-0 of 1892 you show there was 50'2" over buffers, 37'8" total wheelbase. A Dean Goods (with 2,500 gal tender I think) was 49'0" over buffers according to the Beattie drawing. The Midland engine was altogether a bit bigger all round than its contemporaries on the GWR, LNWR, and NER.

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, wenlock said:

Hi Stephen,

 

If there is a "Pictorial History of Great Western Turntables" I haven't found it, there's definitely a gap in the market there

 

Lol!  All grist to the mill and glad to hear your thoughts

There might be some in "Architecture" - I'll have a look at mine and report back.

[kitpw]

The Malvern Wells allocation for 1901 included 0-6-0 number 2425, Dean Goods.  Assuming that the 1881 (ex Stafford Road) 41' 10" turntable wasn't replaced by 1901, I guess the Dean was turned on it.

 

Kit PW

[Steamport Southport]

4 hours ago, Western Star said:

 

Rule No.1 applies here....  and I think that a small shed yard with coal and water is just  what the GWR could have done if a director of the board had bought a local manor, grange or castle - maybe even fishing rights to a nearby River.

 

 

I do so agree...  and once the commuters take residence then think about how the double-ended concertina slip is going to be returned to Paddington after the previous night's working.

 

regards, Graham

 

You'll need something a bit bigger than 42 foot for the Manor, Grange and Castle. 

 

 

*Ducks*

 

 

 

Jason

[Western Star]

37 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

*Ducks*
 

 

I doubt that Dave has any plans for ducks in his river...  certainly not Mallard or similar.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Western Star

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

There might be some in "Architecture" - I'll have a look at mine and report back.

 

Isn't there an Engine Sheds book?

 

Edit: yes, quite an old one.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Compound2632