Edwardian GWR turntable for Sherton Abbas

[kitpw]

11 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Isn't there an Engine Sheds book?

 

Edit: yes, quite an old one.

Also the one I was referring to https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/title/an-historical-survey-of-great-western-engine-sheds-1837-1947/author/lyons-e-mountford-e/ (which is in stock at Abe Books).  I think it was two volumes but I've never seen the first: however, the one I have refers to "volume 1" a couple of times so I assume it's vol 2.  

 

Kit PW

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, kitpw said:

Also the one I was referring to https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/title/an-historical-survey-of-great-western-engine-sheds-1837-1947/author/lyons-e-mountford-e/ (which is in stock at Abe Books).  I think it was two volumes but I've never seen the first: however, the one I have refers to "volume 1" a couple of times so I assume it's vol 2.  

 

Ah, yes, I think that's the one I was shown by a club member a while ago. As Lyons is the author of the earlier book, perhaps he was thinking of that as Vol. 1.

[Steamport Southport]

There was to be a more detailed survey on each of the divisions. But only one volume was published.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Illustrated-History-Western-Railway-Engine/dp/0906867495/ref=sr_1_7?dchild=1&keywords=gwr+engine+sheds&qid=1622142702&sr=8-7

 

 

Jason

[JimC]

The naming is very confusing, but "An Historical Survey of Great Western Engine Sheds" was the first volume and covers those sheds that were taken over by British Railways and "An Historical Survey of Great Western Engine Sheds 1837 1947" was the second and covers sheds that were out of use by 1948.

[Steamport Southport]

2 minutes ago, JimC said:

The naming is very confusing, but "An Historical Survey of Great Western Engine Sheds" was the first volume and covers those sheds that were taken over by British Railways and "An Historical Survey of Great Western Engine Sheds 1837 1947" was the second and covers sheds that were out of use by 1948.

 

I haven't got the second one and was wondering what the difference was.

 

The 1947 book is a classic IMHO. 

 

For small sheds there is also information in another classic. I realise most GWR enthusiasts will have it, but some might not.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Great-Western-Branch-Line-Termini/dp/0860933695

 

 

[wenlock]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

There was to be a more detailed survey on each of the divisions. But only one volume was published.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Illustrated-History-Western-Railway-Engine/dp/0906867495/ref=sr_1_7?dchild=1&keywords=gwr+engine+sheds&qid=1622142702&sr=8-7

 

 

Jason

Thanks for that heads up Jason, I’ve treated myself!
 

BW

 

Dave

[melmerby]

4 hours ago, melmerby said:

There might be some in "Architecture" - I'll have a look at mine and report back.

I've had a look.

Unfortunately nothing of note, unless you are interested in the turntables inside OOC.

[wenlock]

Just now, melmerby said:

I've had a look.

Unfortunately nothing of note, unless you are interested in the turntables inside OOC.

Thanks for looking anyway

[Miss Prism]

Whitland had a small table (image from a previous RMweb thread):

Edited May 28, 2021 by Miss Prism
wrongly ascribed to Cardigan!!!!

[Steamport Southport]

Isn't that Whitland?

 

Later got rebuilt with a proper shed roof.

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/w/whitland/index3.shtml

[Miss Prism]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Isn't that Whitland?

 

Yes. My silly mistake. Now corrected.

[Mikkel]

In Pete's post here is a photo of the Cardigan turntable, upon which I have often gazed with dreamy eyes. Also another shot of Whitland. But your River will overflow it, Dave...

 

On 27/08/2019 at 22:09, petejones said:

I sanded down the chairs on the top of the deck and have glued a length of code 75 track (sleepers and all) on top. The idea now is to build up the edges to look like wooden planking, then fill the area between the rails with fine sand. I will also need to raise the outer rim of the pit, so thought a circle of card rectangles to represent concrete slabs would look OK. This is my source of inspiration, the turntable at Cardigan:

 

 

And the one at Whitland, with railings:

 

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Mikkel

[wenlock]

9 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Whitland had a small table (image from a previous RMweb thread):

That's a lovely collection of buildings and not a sleeper in sight!  The yard lamps are splendid too, all just crying out to be modelled!

[wenlock]

5 hours ago, Mikkel said:

In Pete's post here is a photo of the Cardigan turntable, upon which I have often gazed with dreamy eyes. Also another shot of Whitland. But your River will overflow it, Dave...

 

 

Hi Mikkel, yes the River would certainly burst the banks of that one!  There's definitely a "certain something" about these small turntables, all very atmospheric and they need modelling

[wagonman]

Don't forget that some GWR turntables used outrigger arms to increase the diameter. I've seen a photo somewhere of (?) Penzance shed in pre Long Rock days turning a Duke with the tender wheels on the outrigger. Tricky to model...

[RJS1977]

On 27/05/2021 at 17:49, Miss Prism said:

I don't doubt 42' tables were 'adequate'. Over guard irons, which seems a comfortable minimum (to me) for getting on a table and off again, I think a typical Midland 0-6-0 is a bit shorter than a Dean Goods. Having bits of a loco hanging off the ends of a table seems undignified.

 

 

 

It would depend on what locos were used on the line when the turntable was first installed. If the line had originally been used by even shorter locos, a smaller turntable may well have been used, and if subsequently Deans happened to fit, even with bits hanging off the end, the GWR wouldn't have gone to the expense of providing a larger one.

[RJS1977]

On 27/05/2021 at 19:28, Western Star said:

 

I doubt that Dave has any plans for ducks in his river...  certainly not Mallard or similar.

 

Might have some of these though.

 

[JimC]

29 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

 

It would depend on what locos were used on the line when the turntable was first installed.

A Dean goods with a 6'6+6'6 tender was 38' wheelbase. Std goods was 36'3 with the same, a 57 class 0-6-0 with the earlier 6'2+6'10 tender 36'8, most 2-4-0s were 38' plus, and the Queen 2-2-2s 41' with the larger 7'6+7'6 tenders. So you wouldn't get much smaller than a Dean goods in practice. My uneducated guess  is that a bit of overhang of the locomotive over the end of the turntable might be welcomed as providing a nice solid buffer to push on at a reasonable height, but I might be wrong.

[DCB]

There is absolutely no reason why the turntable has to be long enough to turn your tender engines, lets face it the crew of an open cab tank loco aren't going to run bunker first into a gale if they can avoid it are they?   And the trains aren't likey to exceed thed the 40MPH limit laid down for tender first running.   The GW was ahead of the game turntable wise they had their first 4-6-0 in 1897 and the civil engineer knew what was coming hence the 60 and 65ft tables at many depots.   Lots of LMS and LNER depots had 55ft tables limiting the routes whch could take 4-6-2s  I think some MR Roundhouses had 50ft tables, hence thir desperate clinging to 0-6-0s and replacing 4-4-0s with 2-6-4 tanks instead of 4-6-0s on secondary passenger service.

I would get a Dapol deck and use tapered sides with most of the parallel girders removed.   For a well a clock dace with the raised rim might be a good shortcut.  You could get a brass kit and a motorising kit for £150, look at it and sell it again on eBay but I wouldn't   ( an N gaug e 90 footer might donate the operating mechanism)

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

I think some MR Roundhouses had 50ft tables, hence thir desperate clinging to 0-6-0s and replacing 4-4-0s with 2-6-4 tanks instead of 4-6-0s on secondary passenger service.

 

I've mentioned above the large number of 42 ft tables on the Midland, which could take 0-6-0s and 2-4-0s. The reasons for the continued use of 0-6-0s on the Midland and the Midland Division of the LMS and LMR are many and various, good and bad; turntables were just one among many factors. I rather think there were other reasons for the widespread use of 2-6-4Ts on secondary passenger services, chiefly the outstanding excellence of those engines. There's nothing magical about a 4-6-0.

[JimC]

1 hour ago, DavidCBroad said:

 The GW... civil engineer knew what was coming hence the 60 and 65ft tables at many depots. .

With the GW division of labour sheds and turntables were authorised by the locomotive committee, so I assume were a locomotive superintendent/CME responsibility.

[KingEdwardII]

Wells, on the GWR branch line from Yatton to Witham, had a 42 foot turntable in the East Somerset yard from the Victorian period until 1948, when it was replaced by a larger 55 foot turntable.

 

The motive power on the branch was mostly either tank engines or various types of small tender engines such as 0-6-0 Dean Goods 2301 or Collett 2251 classes, with the occasional 4300 class 2-6-0 and later some BR standard classes and the Ivatt 2MT 2-6-0.

 

Mike.

[dpgibbons]

I'm modelling a largish pre WW1 GWR shed so I've been giving some thought to period turntable options.

 

I have a GA drawing of a 55' overbridge turntable with internal walkways dated 1894, so that does suit the Edwardian period. Unfortunately Greenwood's GWR kit comes only in 65' and 75', but they do a Cowans Sheldon design in 50'. Kitwood's freelance 48' table is based on the Cowans Sheldon design at Yeovil Jct. The Metalsmith/Midland Railway Centre tables appear to be out of production.

 

In addition to the books already mentioned, "Great Western Engine Sheds - London Division" by Hawkins and Reeve is an excellent source of info and drawings.

 

Here's a pic of a turntable outrigger in use at Penzance. Presumably after turning the loco ran forward onto a turntable spur to allow the outrigger to be removed. Readily replicated in model form if you don't mind some finger poking!

 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by dpgibbons

[Miss Prism]

5 hours ago, dpgibbons said:

outrigger

 

I did wonder whether to use the term 'outriggers' in the caption of this picture (same loco!), but I eventually chose 'outriders'. Is 'outriggers' an official or better term?

 

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

I did wonder whether to use the term 'outriggers' in the caption of this picture (same loco!), but I eventually chose 'outriders'. Is 'outriggers' an official or better term?

 

The primary sense of outrider is person who acts as an escort to a vehicle, riding a horse or motorcycle; the primary sense of outrigger is a projecting frame or float on a boat, acting as a stabiliser. An outrigger is thus fixed to the main structure whereas an outrider is not. That being so, I think outrigger has it.