Number of cab crew in a colliery industrial locomotive

[GWR-fan]

Having acquired a few Hornby B2 Peckett locomotives,  I am wondering if in an industrial setting such as a colliery,  whether there would be one or two crew members,  please.x

[Captain Kernow]

I think it depends on the nature of the industrial and railway setting, the length of run, the operational risks involved (ie. would you need two people to look out for hazards etc.?) and such like.

 

I believe there were instances of only one person on the footplate, doing both firing and driving, perhaps in a smaller setting? Others may know more but I usually only put one person on the footplate of my industrial locos (saves painting the figures!).

 

[GWR-fan]

Many thanks.

[Michael Hodgson]

I assume ASLEF agreements didn't count for much in general industry - would a colliery crew belong to the NUM?

[br2975]

Generally, at most South Wales pits I visited, there would invariably be a crew of two.

(i)

the driver, who also fired the loco

(ii)

the "runner" or shunter, who 'latched on' the wagons.

At busier NCB installations, a loco may carry two 'runners' e.g. at Deep Duffryn two men would control the gravity shunting from the pit to the sidings alongside the steam loco shed, where a loco would then latch on for the journey to the Abercwmboi 'Phurnacite' plant.

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All pits were unionised, with generally two unions predominating;

National Union of Mine Workers (NUM), and

National Association of Colliery Overmen, Deputies & Shotfirers (NACODS).

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In the mining industry, NACODS were never considered as militant as the NUM, and at times NACODS members were held in low esteem (even contempt) by some NUM men who christened NACODS:- " National Association of Can-carriers, Obedient Dopes and Suckers "

NACODS on the other hand were quick to point out that during "the  strike" (1984-1985) their union had organised a national ballot, whereas the NUM had relied on a series of local ballots.

Trades Unionism is beyond the scope of this thread.

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The loco men and runners would be members of the NUM

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Brian R

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7754 shunts at Pontcynon on the Mountain Ash network, 25th September 1970.

Photographer unknown

 

Edited June 28, 2021 by br2975

[Steamport Southport]

Two normally I would have thought. Often one would be a "lad" learning the job who would also do things like change points, watering, coaling, etc. as well as firing.

 

Look at photos of old industrial locomotives there are normally two blokes that are loco crew and other men with things like shunters poles. Usually with someone like a foreman or boss also in the shot.

 

 

 

 

Loads more Pecketts here where that photo is from, some with crews in the photo.

 

http://www.martynbane.co.uk/peckett/locos.htm

 

 

 

Jason

[APOLLO]

Wigan Junction Colliery - Two in the cab and three up front !!!

 

 

Brit15

[johnofwessex]

I understood that there was generally no such thing as firemen on Industrial systems just drivers and shunters.

[The Johnster]

I'm no authority on this, but I would imagine it depended, on the loco, the duty, and the operating methods at that particular site.  'Colliery Industrials' were a broad church, with individual independent collieries doing things their own way in pre-NCB days and no doubt afterwards as well.  They ranged from major networks like Philadelphia, Wemyss, Mountain Ash, Maesteg and the like to small pits with just one loco and half a dozen sidings.  Philadelphia and some other systems in the North East of England had locos licensed to run over the big railway's tracks, NER, LNER, and BR, with their own drivers and guards signing route knowledge and having to be passed out on big railway rules and regulations, and some ran passenger trains; I mean proper passenger workmen's trains on big railway running lines, not miners' 'paddy' trains.  Such operations presumably demanded a fireman to carry out the fireman's duties of Rule 55 when required.

 

A 4 coupled tank loco is probably within the capacity of one man to drive and fire, helped by the 'latcher' as NCB and steelworks shunters were generally known, at least in South Wales.  But the big beastie Andrew Barclay 0-6-0s that worked the Blaenserchan trains in the Eastern Valley needed firemen as well as drivers on this steeply graded route.  The 'latchers' often accompanied the locos where the work was spread over an area, which many were.

[GWR-fan]

Thankyou all.

[nigb55009]

In the early 80s I was a shunter for BR at Bickershaw Colliery Sidings. The NCB staff had two diesel locos, Western Queen and Western King. Each loco had its own dedicated crew which consisted of a Driver and two Shunters. For a brief period during 1982 the diesels had a major problem with their batteries, which resulted in the use of a steam loco, until the problem was resolved. IIRC, the loco was No 7, which still carried a ficticious livery, having been used in the filming of a childrens TV series called " Hills of heaven " i think the series was written by local author Brian Finch. I can`t remember the locos real identity, possibly Repulse or maybe Hurricane.

[Steamport Southport]

46 minutes ago, nigb55009 said:

In the early 80s I was a shunter for BR at Bickershaw Colliery Sidings. The NCB staff had two diesel locos, Western Queen and Western King. Each loco had its own dedicated crew which consisted of a Driver and two Shunters. For a brief period during 1982 the diesels had a major problem with their batteries, which resulted in the use of a steam loco, until the problem was resolved. IIRC, the loco was No 7, which still carried a ficticious livery, having been used in the filming of a childrens TV series called " Hills of heaven " i think the series was written by local author Brian Finch. I can`t remember the locos real identity, possibly Repulse or maybe Hurricane.

 

I remember it well.  I've tried to find it without success. A lot of that kind of stuff is on YouTube, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to be there.

 

I doubt the BBC would be interested in repeating it. If they still have a copy that is, as a lot of stuff was wiped, sold, dumped or given away.

 

Someone must have a copy somewhere as it was still being repeated well into the home video era. 

 

https://nostalgiacentral.com/television/tv-by-decade/tv-shows-1970s/hills-of-heaven-the/

 

 

Jason

[Captain Kernow]

On 28/06/2021 at 13:27, br2975 said:

Generally, at most South Wales pits I visited, there would invariably be a crew of two.

(i)

the driver, who also fired the loco

(ii)

the "runner" or shunter, who 'latched on' the wagons

So you could arguably get away with just one person on the footplate under such circumstances, by saying that the second person was 'on the ground' undertaking shunter's duties, either actually modelled or perhaps 'off scene?'

 

[Trevellan]

I visited a number of collieries between 1971 and 1974, mostly in South Wales, but also some in the North East. At no time do I remember a dedicated fireman on the footplate. As others have said, it was a driver and shunter. As I recall, firing was rarely of the "little and often" variety, but rather a "chuck a load in and let it burn through" technique. Anyone who witnessed the Austerities performing at Maesteg would know that propelling a raft of wagons up the incline tended to put a bit of a draught through the fire 

[doilum]

Two points. 

The term "shunter" was a clearly defined job description by the NCB. The coal industry did not suffer from the ridiculous demarcation issues that plagued other industries and men tended to help fellow workmates as required but the shunter ?had specific responsibilities especially with regard to points and the pinning down of brakes to secure loose wagons. 

This has, by amazing coincidence, a direct link to the plot of Hills of Heaven. The author was John Farrimond who was local to the Wigan / Leigh area. The loco was Austerity HE 3776 Warspite from Bickershaw which had just received a splendid new blue livery but was hastlly repainted a plain MOD green with a large Thomas the tank engine "7" in gold on the bunker. I understand that much of the film was shot on the Bickershaw system.

My interest arose from the involvement of HE 3168 aka S134 and later "Wheldale". At the time of filming she had completed over five years in store in the wagon shop of Allerton Bywater colliery. A full rebuild across the road was never quite finished and she went into store in a matt red base coat. The BBC had her recommissioned and given the same green paint job. She went under her own steam on BR metals to Newmarket colliery about five miles away and spent two days filming on either the Newmarket system ( the southern tail of the E&W YURly) or the stump of the Methley joint which linked the colliery to Methley junction.

I understand that the BBC shot some of the domestic scenes at Altofts in the since demolished " long row," which was claimed to be the longest row of terraced houses in Britain or the world or........

What still eludes me is why they had to go to the great cost of preparing a second loco and location for the action sequence. After filming S134 was just parked up outside at Allerton Bywater until Hunslet came along in 1981 and offered to recommission her for some efficiency testing. This resulted in the much filmed and photographed spell at Wheldale colliery that extended to September of the following year.

I bought the BBC book but unlike most of their publications it did not contain any footage from the film, preferring to use the original illustration from the novel. One day I might get to see it!

Edited June 30, 2021 by doilum
Additional information

[The Johnster]

Just googled 'Hills of Heaven', having never heard of it or forgotten it.  It seems to have been set in the 30s, so Hunslet 'Austerities' would be incorrect, but I full understand why the BBC used them in 1978!  The plot is a little remeniscent of Hayley MIlls' film 'Whistle Down The Wind' of about 15 years earlier.

 

It would be nice to see it but I suspect there is little chance of that!

[doilum]

38 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Just googled 'Hills of Heaven', having never heard of it or forgotten it.  It seems to have been set in the 30s, so Hunslet 'Austerities' would be incorrect, but I full understand why the BBC used them in 1978!  The plot is a little remeniscent of Hayley MIlls' film 'Whistle Down The Wind' of about 15 years earlier.

 

It would be nice to see it but I suspect there is little chance of that!

If  we want to be pedantic, don't look too closely at the chimneys and buffers!

[br2975]

7 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

So you could arguably get away with just one person on the footplate under such circumstances, by saying that the second person was 'on the ground' undertaking shunter's duties, either actually modelled or perhaps 'off scene?'

 

 

Yes, you could.

BUT, on a lighter note

Many NCB facilities, especially in South Wales were wide open, with little or no fencing which turned some NCB property into almost public thoroughfares, a classic being the 'Navvy Yard' in Mountain Ash which had access from Cardiff Road across Creselly Level Crossing over the ex-GWR Vale of Neath line, then a public footpath through the Navvy Yard, over the former TVR Nixon's Crossing and off to Oxford Street.

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As a result you could find every Tom, Dick and Harry wandering around some pits, not just enthusiasts and sheep.

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Engine sheds, winding houses, weighbridges, gate houses were all places where locals, especially ex-miners and old codgers would 'dop in' for a cuppa and a chat.

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And, from my experience, footplates were not immune to  being such meeting places either, so there may be more than the driver on the footplate, and those with him may not even be coal board employees....... and as long as nothing untoward happened, blind eyes were turned..

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I loved the 'pet' names and 'nicknames' some of the blokes had

e.g. 

'Bungalow' - as he had nothing upstairs.

'The Biscuit' - because he's 'crackers'

'Armitage Shanks' -  because "the bloke's a sh*t house mun !"

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A generation lost, and a practice (nicknames) now frowned upon.

Edited June 30, 2021 by br2975