Bullion flats.

[LNERGE]

I've been backing away at a Triang Mk1 underframe to make something that looks like a bullion flat. My first question relates to the containers themselves. Is there a drawing of one anywhere? Secondly where did the containers get loaded? I saw a bullion van at Euston once. It had just been unloaded. The pictures I've seen of the containers there appear to be loaded with no regard to which way round they are. Were these filled at a secure establishment and transferred to the bullion flat at a suitable location, possibly a container terminal?

[Fat Controller]

The containers ran between the Royal Mint and/or the Bank of England and the various regional branches of the Bank. The ones for the Newcastle branch were transferred to a lorry at Tyneside Central Freight Depot. The depot was surrounded by police about an hour before the train arrived; I often spent time photographing wagons there, and would be told to get off site before the police got there. The trains conveyed new notes and coin to the regions, taking back cash withdrawn from circulation. Traffic to Newcastle included all the notes that had gone through washing machines and suchlike; they had specialists who could tell if the spoilt notes were genuine or not.

At one time, the Birmingham branch had been served by its own private siding, which left the mainline in Snow Hill Tunnel...

[LNERGE]

I was probably in my very early teens when i was given free rein to look round the one at Euston. One of the policemen there assured me if i'd been ten minutes earlier i'd have got nowhere near it.

[LNERGE]

The hacking so far. I’m not happy with the container. It’s a cut down Triang thing. I’m only trying to get something that looks ok from a distance. 

[jessy1692]

Iv got one or two of these on my 'one day' list so will be watching with interest. Glad to be reminded that they are coach underframes, I started to think they were more like freightliner flats with coach bogies... 

 

[Mark Saunders]

The Newcastle traffic was to Tynside Central Freight Depot ((TCFD) at Gateshead. Not far away on the Team Valley trading estate just over the road from Pooley’s Puffers  is the De La Rue banknote printing plant!

 

The spreader beam for lifting the bullion containers was there long after the traffic ceased.

[Mallard60022]

I have a pic of a 31 on Two Flats and the Bullion Coach; will take me time to find it...sorry. I have a Comet KIt for a Bullion Coach that you could have for a few quid if you want it? I don't need it any more. Give me a PM if you need those or just the pic.

Phil

[LNERGE]

I'd be interested to see the picture. PM sent.

 

I saw this picture.. The first flat is loaded at one end. It seems to be riding high?

 

 

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

I did get to work a Bullion train once, relived a Stratford crew at Finsbury Park, ran non stop to Doncaster, ( en-route to Edinburgh) we had a Class 31 one coach and a (what looked like a freightliner wagon), we ran at 90mph, which the 31 managed easily, with all the armed Police around, I didn't get to have a good look around.

 

manna

[LNERGE]

A little progress with the container but still not happy with it. 

[jessy1692]

14 hours ago, LNERGE said:

A little progress with the container but still not happy with it. 

Looking good, im sure you have already seen the below pic from flikr, to me the boxes look lower than a standard early freightliner box? Have you chopped them down a bit as your model looks to fairly match the height to the roof line of the mk1 in the background of your bench.

 

[Darius43]

The containers would need to be cut down to stay within the loading gauge.  This is because the (ex coach) chassis that they sit on is much higher than a container flat.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, Darius43 said:

The containers would need to be cut down to stay within the loading gauge.  This is because the (ex coach) chassis that they sit on is much higher than a container flat.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

So why not just use a container flat - would standard containers not have been up to spec for the job?  Were the containers stronger for security, or perhaps have a higher weight rating (coin and paper are both heavy)?  If it was a weight issue, they would still have to be within the capability of any cranes/forklifts used at each end.

 

I was rather surprised to see  pictures of these accompanied by bullion coaches - the container approach would be seen as more secure.  It makes sense to have guards protecting valuables inside a van, but any guards would not have had access to containers.  You would lock the containers on packing and there should be no reason to open them until arrival, so there would be a duplicate set at destination and I would not expect guards even to have the keys - that would be an unnecessary security risk.  With the old coaches of course, the valuables had to  be handled at stations, so guards needed to travel with them.  You might want armed escorts of course for high value shipments in case the train was intercepted en route by criminals who were suitably equipped.  When you see Bank of England shipments of gold ingots (this happens extremely infrequently) they travel by road security van in convoy with an exceptionally heavy escort of other vehicles.

[Mallard60022]

5 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

So why not just use a container flat - would standard containers not have been up to spec for the job?  Were the containers stronger for security, or perhaps have a higher weight rating (coin and paper are both heavy)?  If it was a weight issue, they would still have to be within the capability of any cranes/forklifts used at each end.

 

I was rather surprised to see  pictures of these accompanied by bullion coaches - the container approach would be seen as more secure.  It makes sense to have guards protecting valuables inside a van, but any guards would not have had access to containers.  You would lock the containers on packing and there should be no reason to open them until arrival, so there would be a duplicate set at destination and I would not expect guards even to have the keys - that would be an unnecessary security risk.  With the old coaches of course, the valuables had to  be handled at stations, so guards needed to travel with them.  You might want armed escorts of course for high value shipments in case the train was intercepted en route by criminals who were suitably equipped.  When you see Bank of England shipments of gold ingots (this happens extremely infrequently) they travel by road security van in convoy with an exceptionally heavy escort of other vehicles.

Probably because the Container Flats are quite distinctly different to the ex Coach Underframes used back then.

P

[Darius43]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

So why not just use a container flat - would standard containers not have been up to spec for the job?  Were the containers stronger for security, or perhaps have a higher weight rating (coin and paper are both heavy)?  If it was a weight issue, they would still have to be within the capability of any cranes/forklifts used at each end.

 

I was rather surprised to see  pictures of these accompanied by bullion coaches - the container approach would be seen as more secure.  It makes sense to have guards protecting valuables inside a van, but any guards would not have had access to containers.  You would lock the containers on packing and there should be no reason to open them until arrival, so there would be a duplicate set at destination and I would not expect guards even to have the keys - that would be an unnecessary security risk.  With the old coaches of course, the valuables had to  be handled at stations, so guards needed to travel with them.  You might want armed escorts of course for high value shipments in case the train was intercepted en route by criminals who were suitably equipped.  When you see Bank of England shipments of gold ingots (this happens extremely infrequently) they travel by road security van in convoy with an exceptionally heavy escort of other vehicles.

 

Alas being neither a BR wagon designer in the ‘60s or ‘70s or a policeman of the same era I can’t answer these questions.  I was intrigued by them so I went onto Google, which turned up these interesting snippets:-

https://www.btphg.org.uk/?page_id=6013

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/bullionflat

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[Halvarras]

On 04/08/2021 at 15:29, Mallard60022 said:

I have a pic of a 31 on Two Flats and the Bullion Coach; will take me time to find it...

 

Would that be the photo which appears on page 100 of 'Rolling Stock Recognition 1 - Coaching Stock' by Colin J. Marsden (Ian Allan 1983)? It shows 31226 with BFBs B99500/1 & SLB E99204 in tow. Interestingly each flat has a single container mounted centrally, presumably there was a reason why a single flat with the two containers positioned above the bogies wasn't employed. Perhaps they were particularly heavy that day........

Edited August 6, 2021 by Neil Phillips
Changed the BFB prefix from (CJM's) E to B!

[Michael Hodgson]

21 minutes ago, Darius43 said:

 

Alas being neither a BR wagon designer in the ‘60s or ‘70s or a policeman of the same era I can’t answer these questions.  I was intrigued by them so I went onto Google, which turned up these interesting snippets:-

https://www.btphg.org.uk/?page_id=6013

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/bullionflat

 

Cheers

 

Darius

Interesting description by the police - I'm pretty sure armed officers are used for some of the higher value runs, but the security arrangements are naturally not published.

 

Gold prices fluctuate a lot, but a single bar (400 Troy ounces or about 12.5 Kg) today is worth over half a million pounds.  Most transactions involving gold bars just mean an entry in the Bank of England's ledgers, and it stays in heir vault, but sometimes a very large shipment is needed because the owner (typically a foreign government) demands delivery.  

 

The value of cash carried on the trains would be a lot less than some exceptional gold shipments.  The great train robbery was £2.6m which would be worth about 20 times that in today's money.

 

I worked for a bank in the early 1970s, and there was quite a bit of transport of cash between branches.  Because of different types of business they serve, some branches tend to pay out more banknotes (and usually take in more coin) whilst other branches are the other way round.  So the clearing banks had regional cash centres which redistributed it on an irregular but roughly weekly basis.  They would keep the total cash held by each branch to a reasonable level, any excess or shortfall going to the regional centre.  They would plan an itinerary for the security van so that not only was the route varied, but the value carried at any point in its journey wasn't excessive.  The branches only got a few minutes warning to be ready for the van to call.  I didn't see the wholesale side of regional centres' work, but essentially they shipped soiled notes (too tatty to reissue) back to the Bank of England with new notes going the other way.  They also dealt with "Scotch & Irish" banknotes paid in by customers, which got sent back to their issuing banks.  The Bank of England used to have about a dozen regional centres, but I think they've all now gone.  The average life of a paper banknote is only about a year, and it probably gets reissued about 5 times before it is too rough.  I suspect the current plastic ones last a little longer.  There was a separate rather bureaucratic claim procedure for incomplete banknotes. 

 

 

[Fat Controller]

I used to work (that's probably too strong a word) as 'site manager' for a trio of office blocks overlooking Tyneside Central Freight Depot. My office had a view of the reception sidings, giving me a bird's eye view of things such as the bullion train. I remember watching one day, as the 31 that had brought the train was exchanged for an 08. One of the police cars, a brand-new unmarked Granada, decided he was best employed following the train along the side of the shed. What he failed to note was the rail track carried straight on, whilst the road turned towards the left.... He must have dropped a couple of feet on to the weed-strewn ballast; at the very least, he needed a new sump afterwards.

[Mallard60022]

42 minutes ago, Neil Phillips said:

 

Would that be the photo which appears on page 100 of 'Rolling Stock Recognition 1 - Coaching Stock' by Colin J. Marsden (Ian Allan 1983)? It shows 31226 with BFBs B99500/1 & SLB E99204 in tow. Interestingly each flat has a single container mounted centrally, presumably there was a reason why a single flat with the two containers positioned above the bogies wasn't employed. Perhaps they were particularly heavy that day........

I should think it was but I only saw it on t'web. Thanks.  It looks like it is somewhere not that far north of London ?

[LNERGE]

On 05/08/2021 at 23:32, jessy1692 said:

Looking good, im sure you have already seen the below pic from flikr, to me the boxes look lower than a standard early freightliner box? Have you chopped them down a bit as your model looks to fairly match the height to the roof line of the mk1 in the background of your bench.

 

I took around 5mm off the height of each container but ended up adding a little back. As I said I'm not happy with them so I may have another go. 

 

In this picture it obvious there is no vacuum brake gear. With the code ending in B I think that means it's air braked vacuum piped?

 

[jessy1692]

1 hour ago, LNERGE said:

I took around 5mm off the height of each container but ended up adding a little back. As I said I'm not happy with them so I may have another go. 

 

In this picture it obvious there is no vacuum brake gear. With the code ending in B I think that means it's air braked vacuum piped?

 

Are they not FXA's? So would be air but I imagine have a through vac pipe like you say.

Cheers

James

[LNERGE]

In this view of B99500 it looks like BFB. If B means air braked with through vacuum pipe it would have marshalling implications if used with a vacuum braked loco.

 

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by LNERGE

[jessy1692]

1 hour ago, LNERGE said:

In this view of B99500 it looks like BFB. If B means air braked with through vacuum pipe it would have marshalling implications if used with a vacuum braked loco.

 

 

Ooo interesting, I'll have to delve through pics and see. I'm guessing when first converted they were BFB and later FXA's, possibly after vac pipe removals?

[Mark Saunders]

52 minutes ago, jessy1692 said:

Ooo interesting, I'll have to delve through pics and see. I'm guessing when first converted they were BFB and later FXA's, possibly after vac pipe removals?

Under strict application of TOPS codes B is Bogie steel and F is flats including container carriers!

 

Could BFB be a coaching stock type but   it could be Brake Flat Bullion, normally F is First!?

[jessy1692]

32 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

Under strict application of TOPS codes B is Bogie steel and F is flats including container carriers!

 

Could BFB be a coaching stock type but   it could be Brake Flat Bullion, normally F is First!?

Interesting thought Mike onBFB being coaching stock reference. Would then assume they were transferred into Freight stock as FXA. Certainly B99500 was lettered up FXA at some point after this pic with BFB