Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[boxbrownie]

8 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

In my Rover 214Si (RIP) over 239K and 23 years - I'd take an educated guess that £2K would easily cover it...

Your saying in 23 years of running it cost less than £2K in service parts?

 

[Nick C]

3 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Your saying in 23 years of running it cost less than £2K in service parts?

 

My Wife's 1998 Micra has cost us about £200 in the two years we've had it (it has needed an exhaust (£70), battery (£50), front crossmember (£35), brake pads (£7) and general service bits). It'll need new tyres soon, but then so would an EV...

[TheQ]

11 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Your saying in 23 years of running it cost less than £2K in service parts?

 

We had a Kia Pride for 15 years about 120000 miles, and two sets of tyres, a set of brake shoes / pads,, a couple of spark plug sets. 1 exhaust , 1 cam belt set, plus oil water and filters  . all servicing done myself except for cam belt easily under £2K  probably under £1.5K.

 

 Our current Kia Rio ,  10 years old 110000 miles, two sets of tyres two sets of brake shoes pads, one exhaust, 1 cam belt change, 10 annual services inc MOT done by a garage about  £3000... 

Until this year, when she needed a complete suspension rebuild front end and ABS system rebuild back end along with another cam belt change that took another £2200 of which only the Cam belt and engine service wouldn't apply and that bit was £600.

 

Looking at the above the totals if you remove the items an EV would be liable for then 230,000 miles For definately under £3000, probably under £2000..

Edited November 14, 2019 by TheQ

[Nick C]

Incidentally, this is one of the things that worries me, not just about EVs but most modern cars - on the Micra and the Avensis I can do most stuff myself. With most modern stuff being fully electronic, it's becoming more and more difficult - even if you can replace the bit that's broken/worn, you can't reset the system without plugging it into a laptop with the appropriate software - which of course isn't available unless you're a dealer, or prepared to pay £thousands for a licence...

[raymw]

It's pretty obvious that the car companies will be/are modelling their business plan on apple. You will not have the right to repair, or you will not be able to get the parts. It will be cheaper to scrap the ev in five years, because it will not have the latest touch screen, hence it will be worthless. In the same way you are charged for your worn tyres, guess when you'll get charged for your scrapped battery? But, if the ev's were cheap, and the electric was cheap, everybody would buy them, and the infra structure could not support that. Prices will be kept high, so that nobody will actually want to buy them for cash (usury is encouraged)., thus there will be less vehicles on the roads, which saves on the expense of more roads, etc. It will be interesting to hear the complaints when attempts are made to recover the equivalent fuel tax from the fewer vehicles.

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, polybear said:

I'll be interested in how long batteries last before replacement is required, and at what cost

 

EV batteries seem to be lasting longer than some early forecasts predicted. This article sheds some interesting light on the subject and advice on how to prolong battery life (try to avoid overcharging or completely discharging is the gist of it). It mentions an EV used as taxi that has done over 100,000 miles without losing any battery performance.

 

https://www.whatcar.com/advice/owning/how-long-do-electric-car-batteries-last-for/n18117

 

Obviously nothing lasts for ever but given that most manufacturers offer an 8 year / 100,000 mile battery warranty, they clearly aren't worried about batteries failing rapidly.

 

When a battery needs replacing, it looks to be expensive at the moment. Possibly as EVs become more widespread, that cost will drop (just look at printers where unbranded toner cartridges are often less than half the price of official replacements). However it looks like you would not need to replace the batteries for a long time and you would be saving yourself on running costs, road tax and (apparently) other maintenance costs in the meantime.

 

And to those who have managed to keep cars going for decades with just a few thousand on repairs and servicing, I envy your good luck. I have spent more than that on my VW Sharan in just 5 years of owning it.

[polybear]

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

Your saying in 23 years of running it cost less than £2K in service parts?

 

 

Yes, without a doubt.  Parts of course, not labour included.  And not tyres.  But everything else.

(We're talking a Rover here - not inflated Jag/Beemer/Merc etc. spares prices.)

Edited November 14, 2019 by polybear

[boxbrownie]

Just now, polybear said:

 

Yes, without a doubt.  Parts of course, not labour included.  And not tyres.  But everything else.

And oil? 
 

Even at a gallon change every 10000 miles say £25 gall of cheap stuff that’s getting in for 600 let alone the filter each time, air filter every few years.

 

 

[polybear]

1 minute ago, boxbrownie said:

And oil? 
 

Even at a gallon change every 10000 miles say £25 gall of cheap stuff that’s getting in for 600 let alone the filter each time, air filter every few years.

 

 

 

Oil was a tenner a time.  No need for semi or full synthetic hocus pocus stuff.....

And not every 10K, but not using it so long it was sludge either.  Did 239K (and would've gone a lot more if it weren't for the sensors/eng. management playing up).  Got £2K trade in/scrappage too     

[Ron Ron Ron]

3 hours ago, polybear said:

I'll be interested in how long batteries last before replacement is required, and at what cost

 

Replacement of the batteries will be the very last thing to worry about with a new EV, or one that is only a few years old.

Both Tesla and independent research bodies have been closely monitoring the battery life and condition of Tesla cars over a number of years.

Their initial estimates have proved to be far too pessimistic, with real world use showing the battery packs are holding up much better than expected.

 

It's generally thought that the batteries are good for powering a car, until their charge capacity reduces to less than 70% (individual examples could go lower).

The battery warranties reflect this.

With the Tesla S models, they have found that on average, there's about a 5% loss in charge capacity over the first 50,000 miles, but after that the rate of reduction becomes much slower, with the majority of cars only losing another 5 to 10% by 150,000 miles.

The stats are suggesting that many battery packs could remain useful for as much as 400,000 or 500,000 miles before requiring a change, by which time the car itself may be worn out, or uneconomic to keep on the road, anyway.

How many ICE powered cars make it to 200,000 miles, let alone 500,000 miles?

 

It's early days and the batteries in some of the earlier EV's, such as the mk1 Leaf, will probably not provide such long useful lives in their host vehicles.

High mileage vehicles being a particular concern, but this is not a fixed scenario for the future.

 

The battery tech is improving all the time.

Elon Musk is so confident in the technological progress, that he has set a target for Tesla to develop batteries that will be good for 1 million miles !!!!

 

 

 

.

[Ron Ron Ron]

The middle section of this video contains a chat with the owner of a Dundee taxi company, who run a fleet of mostly EV's.

Interesting stuff regards battery use and running costs.

 

 

.

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, polybear said:

 

Oil was a tenner a time.  No need for semi or full synthetic hocus pocus stuff.....

And not every 10K, but not using it so long it was sludge either.  Did 239K (and would've gone a lot more if it weren't for the sensors/eng. management playing up).  Got £2K trade in/scrappage too     

A tenner for a gallon of mineral oil?

 

I’m outa this conversation 

[Ron Ron Ron]

A report here on the pricing of the new SEAT Mii EV.

SEAT's take on the Skoda Citigo e iV and revamped, bigger battery VW e-UP.

 

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/seat/mii/97427/new-seat-mii-electric-to-start-from-19k

 

 

 

.

[Enterprisingwestern]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

VW e-UP.

 

Made in Yorkshire presumably.

 

Mike.

[Ryde-on-time]

An interesting article on Tesla cars

 

https://qz.com/1737145/the-economics-of-driving-seven-teslas-for-2-5-million-miles/

[raymw]

25litres 15W-30 mineral oil, retail price £63.12 inc VAT - today. A tenner a gallon is near enough.

[Grovenor]

"Which" has made the Hyundai Kona electric top product of 2019.

[polybear]

2 hours ago, raymw said:

25litres 15W-30 mineral oil, retail price £63.12 inc VAT - today. A tenner a gallon is near enough.

 

Precisely - and that's at today's prices.  I had the car 23 years - a tenner for a gallon of oil back then needed saving up for

[johnofwessex]

I have kjust ghad to replace the clutch on my wifes Rio, cost £600 & my Carens needs doing as well at a cost of £1000

 

Given that the Rio is now 11 years old & we should probably have done it a year or so ago that alone is about £60 - £70 pa fior that alone & as the Carens is about 9, nearer £100pa for that just to cover the clutch

 

These are all 'main dealer' prices but clearly it gives an idea of the sums involved

[Ian Morgan]

There will always be extremes. My old Volvo reached 240,000 miles before a large deer rearranged the front end. In the time I had it, the largest servicing expenses were a couple of brake disk replacements at about £300 a time. Before that, I had a Peugeot 805 from new. In the 12 months after the warranty ran out, three small things broke, each costing over £500 to repair.

 

(one of the small items that broke was a hook that one end of accelerator return spring fitted on to. This hook was part of a casting that basically formed the whole of the front of the engine. The second item was a heater control knob that came off in my hand. This required the replacement of practically the complete heater system)

 

[Corbs]

Those two examples almost exactly conform to the old stereotypes of 'Swedish car, French car'!

[TheQ]

16 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

And oil? 
 

Even at a gallon change every 10000 miles say £25 gall of cheap stuff that’s getting in for 600 let alone the filter each time, air filter every few years.

 

 

I have no idea where you buy your oil but cheap stuff is at least £10 cheaper.. https://www.amazon.co.uk/MOTEK-10W-40-Supa-Lite-Synthetic-Engine/dp/B00O8OYJJW/ref=sr_1_17?crid=329BGUK84JYPC&keywords=engine+oil+5ltr&qid=1573805021&sprefix=engine+oil+5l%2Caps%2C153&sr=8-17

[polybear]

10 hours ago, johnofwessex said:

I have kjust ghad to replace the clutch on my wifes Rio, cost £600 & my Carens needs doing as well at a cost of £1000

 

Given that the Rio is now 11 years old & we should probably have done it a year or so ago that alone is about £60 - £70 pa fior that alone & as the Carens is about 9, nearer £100pa for that just to cover the clutch

 

These are all 'main dealer' prices but clearly it gives an idea of the sums involved

 

I was lucky only to need one clutch in 239K, and that was because the gearbox output shaft seal failed and dumped oil on the clutch  (a new clutch kit at today's prices starts at firty quid).  A s/h box was forty quid, plus some box oil.  All changed single-handed on the drive using a trolley jack and axle stands - never again.  I'm not including the (significant) cost of painkillers for weeks afterwards, since Ibruprofen doesn't have a Rover part number...

 

edit:  I've been dead lucky - there are others who have to spend a fortune on car repairs and maintenance, and some who get away with telephone number mileages on the cost of a light bulb.  Some of the guys at work drive around in big mercs etc. and get little change out of a grand for a set of tyres.. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by polybear

[polybear]

 

21 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

It's generally thought that the batteries are good for powering a car, until their charge capacity reduces to less than 70% (individual examples could go lower).

The battery warranties reflect this.

With the Tesla S models, they have found that on average, there's about a 5% loss in charge capacity over the first 50,000 miles, but after that the rate of reduction becomes much slower, with the majority of cars only losing another 5 to 10% by 150,000 miles.

The stats are suggesting that many battery packs could remain useful for as much as 400,000 or 500,000 miles before requiring a change, by which time the car itself may be worn out, or uneconomic to keep on the road, anyway.

How many ICE powered cars make it to 200,000 miles, let alone 500,000 miles?

 

 

I wonder if there will be any degradation due to age, irrespective of mileage?  Could be interesting to lower mileage drivers.

(I work in the Aerospace Industry, where many consumables have a shelf life, whether storage or once opened.  However, I have seen some jokers put a shelf life on a packet of bolts - ordinary plated steel, nothing clever.  Barking).

Edited November 15, 2019 by polybear

[Nick C]

16 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

A tenner for a gallon of mineral oil?

 

I’m outa this conversation 

Euro Car Parts have 5L of Gulf fully-synthetic 5W-40 for £8.32 at the moment (normally £13, but they've got 37% off everything this weekend...