Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[Enterprisingwestern]

8 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

There's a slowly growing range of small and medium sized commercial vans becoming available, with larger vans and small trucks in the pipeline.

It's early days at the moment, but congestion charging and other restrictions will help spur users and operators to make the switch.

 

...and in reply to Joseph, above....

 

Some large fleet operators such as UPS, have already placed substantial orders for electric delivery vans.

(note that UPS has ordered 10,000 vehicles just from one supplier.)

 

https://www.commercialfleet.org/news/van-news/2020/01/31/ups-orders-10-000-arrival-electric-trucks

 

 

The Royal Mail are also starting to replace their diesel vans with EV's....

 

 

 

.

 

That's a rebodied milk float?, ultimate excellent green recycling IMHO.

 

Mike.

[Enterprisingwestern]

12 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Now a Citroen C5, picked up recently. I am getting there but it ain't so easy. At 64, one is just not so adaptable.

 

Diff'rent strokes as always, I took to mine like the proverbial duck, I'd not driven an automatic since my SD1 which I traded in for my my first Citroen, a BX, in 1987, and you can always move the lever to the left if you feel the need to stir the gears a tad!

 

Mike.

[Joseph_Pestell]

38 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

That's a rebodied milk float?, ultimate excellent green recycling IMHO.

 

Mike.

 

Post Office should have been using milk floats for years in towns. Must be killing for postmen's backs to be getting in and out of a car derived van hundreds of times a day.

[Kris]

10 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Delivery firm, DPD have ordered 600 electric vans for the UK.

300 Nissan e-NV200  and 300 MAN eTGE.

.

One of the local DPD drivers in my area has been using an electric van for the last year. 

[Nick C]

12 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

An interesting point which is a puzzle to me. A big part of the commercial fleet these days is courier firms. Typically, a day's mileage is around 200, ideal for an electric vehicle.

That was always a puzzle for me too - as others have said, it's starting to change now, but in my mind urban delivery would have been the perfect place to start with EV development - lots of short, start-stop journeys (ideal for regen braking), a largish vehicle with plenty of room for batteries, time to recharge while the vehicle is being loaded, and of course the precedent of the archetypal milkfloat to raise it in the public viewpoint.

[Joseph_Pestell]

5 minutes ago, Nick C said:

That was always a puzzle for me too - as others have said, it's starting to change now, but in my mind urban delivery would have been the perfect place to start with EV development - lots of short, start-stop journeys (ideal for regen braking), a largish vehicle with plenty of room for batteries, time to recharge while the vehicle is being loaded, and of course the precedent of the archetypal milkfloat to raise it in the public viewpoint.

 

When I was at school in London (1965 - 1970), Harrod's had a fleet of such vehicles. I think that they were quite old then.

 

Add: Harrods Electric Van - The National Motor Museum Trust

Edited April 28, 2021 by Joseph_Pestell
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[admiles]

On 26/04/2021 at 18:12, boxbrownie said:

But you wouldn’t have one regardless as your other half cannot drive an automatic, isn’t that correct?

 

I might, she can't.  We have a car each.

 

If the "fueling" time for an EV is comparable to an ICE and the range improves it could work for me.

Edited April 28, 2021 by admiles

[admiles]

14 hours ago, Ian Morgan said:

 

https://www.dhl.com/gb-en/home/press/press-archive/2020/dhl-supply-chain-takes-to-the-road-with-uks-first-electric-16-tonne-truck.html

 

 

 

And a DPD electric van regularly delivers to houses in my street, and we are not particularly urban here.

 

 

 

 

Electric trucks will work well for courier companies but not so well (at the moment) for general haulage companies.  A couple of reasons for this. Electric trucks have a heavy tare weight due the the batteries. For a courier company this isn't a problem as what they carry tends to be lightweight but bulky (parcels, mail etc) so they tend to fill the trucks before hitting the weight limit.  The smaller trucks like the one in the photo and vans tend to be used on shorter routes where they return to a depot overnight. Handy for charging.

 

General haulage vehicles generally carry heavier products and you want as light a tare weight as possible to maximize payload. They'll also be working longer distances with no opportunity to charge easily. 

 

 

[Pete the Elaner]

1 hour ago, admiles said:

 

I might, she can't.  We have a car each.

 

 

You never explained why. Probably because there is no sensible explanation. Changing gear is a complexity many of us have got used to & some may even enjoy (I do), but it is a complexity. Removing it unquestionably makes the task easier.

 

1 hour ago, admiles said:

 

If the "fueling" time for an EV is comparable to an ICE and the range improves it could work for me.

 

A direct comparison is irrelevant. It requires a different mindset, not the 'fill up & go' mindset we currently have.

For most EVs, the charging network is not there yet, so using a Nissan Leaf as an example is about as relevant as using a class 08 as an example of a main line diesel loco.

Instead, we need to look at the 1 company who have got a system which works - Tesla:

 

1. Range is about 200-250 miles. This gives you at least 3 hours driving.

2. Start the journey with a full charge. This is not desirable, it is essential. Chargers therefore need to be available at every overnight parking place: home, hotel, long stay car park.

3. For longer journeys, we are going to need to stop for a top-up. But we would usually stop for a toilet break & cup of tea anyway. If we don't, then we should. I think most would agree that the occasional stop helps with concentration. When the car is stopped, it can be plugged in. There is no need to hang around to supervise it, so plug it in & do something else. Charging points therefore need to be elsewhere instead of in filling stations.

Stops on longer journeys are often Motorway or trunk road service areas, which have shops & eateries. If you look at the far side of the car park, what will you see? Tesla chargers. In time, they will be joined by others & there will be many more of them.

4. Charging needs to be fairly quick. A 20 minute charge needs to be useful. Long enough for a toilet break then a cup of tea. Tesla chargers are quick & a 20 minute charge is very useful.

5. It would be very useful if the car's integrated sat nav knows where its charging stations are (& is reliable about it) & will include stops in a route when you plot it. Guess what? Tesla's do exactly this.

[PenrithBeacon]

5 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

You never explained why. Probably because there is no sensible explanation. Changing gear is a complexity many of us have got used to & some may even enjoy (I do), but it is a complexity. Removing it unquestionably makes the task easier.

 

 

A direct comparison is irrelevant. It requires a different mindset, not the 'fill up & go' mindset we currently have.

For most EVs, the charging network is not there yet, so using a Nissan Leaf as an example is about as relevant as using a class 08 as an example of a main line diesel loco.

Instead, we need to look at the 1 company who have got a system which works - Tesla:

 

1. Range is about 200-250 miles. This gives you at least 3 hours driving.

2. Start the journey with a full charge. This is not desirable, it is essential. Chargers therefore need to be available at every overnight parking place: home, hotel, long stay car park.

3. For longer journeys, we are going to need to stop for a top-up. But we would usually stop for a toilet break & cup of tea anyway. If we don't, then we should. I think most would agree that the occasional stop helps with concentration. When the car is stopped, it can be plugged in. There is no need to hang around to supervise it, so plug it in & do something else. Charging points therefore need to be elsewhere instead of in filling stations.

Stops on longer journeys are often Motorway or trunk road service areas, which have shops & eateries. If you look at the far side of the car park, what will you see? Tesla chargers. In time, they will be joined by others & there will be many more of them.

4. Charging needs to be fairly quick. A 20 minute charge needs to be useful. Long enough for a toilet break then a cup of tea. Tesla chargers are quick & a 20 minute charge is very useful.

5. It would be very useful if the car's integrated sat nav knows where its charging stations are (& is reliable about it) & will include stops in a route when you plot it. Guess what? Tesla's do exactly this.

While I agree with much of this, it tends to emphasise the barriers that have yet to be overcome which include the need for an international standard for chargers. Also, although the large, perhaps intercontinental, hotel chains will have the resources to install chargers a family who run a B&B won't.

[Enterprisingwestern]

8 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

While I agree with much of this, it tends to emphasise the barriers that have yet to be overcome which include the need for an international standard for chargers. Also, although the large, perhaps intercontinental, hotel chains will have the resources to install chargers a family who run a B&B won't.

 

I would imagine as EV's become a more embedded form of motoring, chargers at such as at your hypothetical B&B, will be installed by the suppliers at no cost, like vending machines, cash machines etc currently are.

 

Mike.

[Pete the Elaner]

8 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

While I agree with much of this, it tends to emphasise the barriers that have yet to be overcome which include the need for an international standard for chargers. Also, although the large, perhaps intercontinental, hotel chains will have the resources to install chargers a family who run a B&B won't.

 

Absolutely. There are lots of barriers which need to be addressed.

 

We hear governments state that we need to move towards alternative fuels but they say nothing about addressing the measures required to make this possible.

Regarding hotels/B&Bs, will they find that they need to install charging points in order to attract/keep customers? How will this work in places like Blackpool where many B&Bs are tucked away around back streets with limited parking?

Lots of questions, few answers right now.

[Ian Morgan]

34 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

While... the large, perhaps intercontinental, hotel chains will have the resources to install chargers a family who run a B&B won't.

 

2019 I was at TINGS and they put us up in a local B&B. They had a 3 pin socket by their driveway and were happy for me to do an overnight charge (it takes about 10 hours on a 3 pin plug) and I gave them a fiver for the juice.

 

Otherwise, I would have needed a stop on the way home.

Edited April 28, 2021 by Ian Morgan

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

I would imagine as EV's become a more embedded form of motoring, chargers at such as at your hypothetical B&B, will be installed by the suppliers at no cost, like vending machines, cash machines etc currently are.

 

Negative cost in fact. They'll pay you rent for letting them put their charger there.

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

....we need to look at the 1 company who have got a system which works - Tesla:

 

1. Range is about 200-250 miles. This gives you at least 3 hours driving.

 

 

 

4. Charging needs to be fairly quick. A 20 minute charge needs to be useful. Long enough for a toilet break then a cup of tea. Tesla chargers are quick & a 20 minute charge is very useful.

 

 

Richard Symons, who has the RSymons RSEV YouTube channel, is a EV specialist car dealer in the Bournemouth area (New Milton).

 

He's just driven a 2020 Tesla Model S from Edinburgh to London, non-stop.

Actually it was from next to Edinburgh Airport, to near Heathrow.

Initially the sat nav estimated about 400 miles, but it ended up as 421 miles.

On one charge, with enough left at the end to continue on and drive into central London (which he didn't need to do)..

He pulled over for a pee, but didn't take any break.

7hrs 54mins !!!

 

He then charged for just 27 mins and gained over 200 miles extra range, more than enough to get home to Bournemouth.

 

 

.

Edited April 28, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[raymw]

Quote

A direct comparison is irrelevant. It requires a different mindset, not the 'fill up & go' mindset we currently have.

In the future, whenever that may be, there will not be as many privately owned cars as you think, that is the mindset that you need to adapt to.

[Ron Ron Ron]

3 hours ago, admiles said:

....General haulage vehicles generally carry heavier products and you want as light a tare weight as possible to maximize payload. They'll also be working longer distances with no opportunity to charge easily. 

 

This is why a lot of pundits reckon that HGV's etc, will be better suited to Hydrogen fuel cell power, despite Elon's efforts with his "Sem-eye" EV truck.

Fuel cell tech is better suited to larger vehicles.

 

One things for sure HGV's etc, won't be running on diesel in 15 or 20 years time.

[admiles]

2 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

You never explained why. Probably because there is no sensible explanation. Changing gear is a complexity many of us have got used to & some may even enjoy (I do), but it is a complexity. Removing it unquestionably makes the task easier.

 

 

A direct comparison is irrelevant. It requires a different mindset, not the 'fill up & go' mindset we currently have.

For most EVs, the charging network is not there yet, so using a Nissan Leaf as an example is about as relevant as using a class 08 as an example of a main line diesel loco.

Instead, we need to look at the 1 company who have got a system which works - Tesla:

 

1. Range is about 200-250 miles. This gives you at least 3 hours driving.

2. Start the journey with a full charge. This is not desirable, it is essential. Chargers therefore need to be available at every overnight parking place: home, hotel, long stay car park.

3. For longer journeys, we are going to need to stop for a top-up. But we would usually stop for a toilet break & cup of tea anyway. If we don't, then we should. I think most would agree that the occasional stop helps with concentration. When the car is stopped, it can be plugged in. There is no need to hang around to supervise it, so plug it in & do something else. Charging points therefore need to be elsewhere instead of in filling stations.

Stops on longer journeys are often Motorway or trunk road service areas, which have shops & eateries. If you look at the far side of the car park, what will you see? Tesla chargers. In time, they will be joined by others & there will be many more of them.

4. Charging needs to be fairly quick. A 20 minute charge needs to be useful. Long enough for a toilet break then a cup of tea. Tesla chargers are quick & a 20 minute charge is very useful.

5. It would be very useful if the car's integrated sat nav knows where its charging stations are (& is reliable about it) & will include stops in a route when you plot it. Guess what? Tesla's do exactly this.

 

I have explained why, but much earlier in this post.  Boxbrownie decided to dredge it up again for reasons best known to himself.

 

A direct comparison is very relevant to me. To you it may not be and that's fine. You're viewing things from your own perspective. 

 

As charging at home or work is a non-starter for me I would need quick charging times. As in 5 mins, comparable filling a car now.  I honestly don't have enough hours in the day now without having to sit waiting for a car to charge. Maybe super capacitors rather than a battery could enable that?   Range too need to be more than the 200-250 miles you mention. I've sure in time it will come. As someone mentioned earlier Tesla already do this.  As I'll never have the budget for a Tesla it doesn't matter what they can or can't do.

 

I've never claimed EV's don't work for some people, of course they do, but we all have different requirements of a vehicle and at the moment, for me, they don't. 

[admiles]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

This is why a lot of pundits reckon that HGV's etc, will be better suited to Hydrogen fuel cell power, despite Elon's efforts with his "Sem-eye" EV truck.

Fuel cell tech is better suited to larger vehicles.

 

One things for sure HGV's etc, won't be running on diesel in 15 or 20 years time.

 

I quite agree. Will be interesting to see how technology develops to replace diesel HGVs and if it's at a cost that hauliers can stomach.

[Reorte]

13 minutes ago, admiles said:

 

I honestly don't have enough hours in the day now without having to sit waiting for a car to charge.

 

There's your problem I suspect - it's back to demand filling whatever is available, so you'll always be pressed for time but just about manage to somehow do whatever you need. Remove a current timesink you've got and something else will fill that up and you won't have enough hours to go back to now.

 

Of course there's plenty you can pick on with my admittedly rather arrogant-sounding assumptions there but I do think there's a lot of truth to it; if it had always taken cars several hours to get back to maximum range  things would've shaped themselves around that.

[Pete the Elaner]

16 minutes ago, admiles said:

 

As charging at home or work is a non-starter for me I would need quick charging times. As in 5 mins, comparable filling a car now.

 

You need to be more open minded.

You mean charging from home is a non-starter for you at the moment.

It is for me too...at the moment.

The aim is to make them a useful vehicle in the future.

Getting a proper charging structure fixed for the future is a game-changer. It is highly unlikely it will be possible to recharge a battery from flat in 5 minutes (while retaining a decent charge range). The high current involved will make this too dangerous.

 

The whole concept around fuelling vehicles needs to change to adapt to them.

If EVs are the way forward (we may see some alternative propulsion), we will look back at stopping for fuel as being a thing of the past, like water troughs in a railway.

[boxbrownie]

29 minutes ago, admiles said:

 

I have explained why, but much earlier in this post.  Boxbrownie decided to dredge it up again for reasons best known to himself.

 

Because it was so far back in thread that you “highlighted” your reason for not buying an EV, but now you have enlightened us that you might have one, but still your partner would never. That’s fine.

 

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Getting a proper charging structure fixed for the future is a game-changer. It is highly unlikely it will be possible to recharge a battery from flat in 5 minutes (while retaining a decent charge range). The high current involved will make this too dangerous.

 

The whole concept around fuelling vehicles needs to change to adapt to them.

 

For most vehicles they spend the overwhelming majority of time sitting doing nothing. Finding time to charge shouldn't be an issue.

There are some exceptions like the British Coal crew buses I used to ride around in. I recall one driver telling me the only time the engine was switched off was when they got serviced.

[black and decker boy]

4 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

While I agree with much of this, it tends to emphasise the barriers that have yet to be overcome which include the need for an international standard for chargers. Also, although the large, perhaps intercontinental, hotel chains will have the resources to install chargers a family who run a B&B won't.

There are many small B&B / Guest houses who have done just that and installed a Tesla Destination charger (or two etc). These are 7KW and free to use (for customers).

 

they appear in the Tesla SatNav so become a reason to chose that hotel. I and my colleagues do exactly that in our uniform

fleet of blue model 3s 

[PenrithBeacon]

And for those who don't have a Tesla?