Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[Georgeconna]

Ouch that is some extra cost, I dont have an EV but I expect the fast chargers are more expensive that the slower ones and that charging at home is much better cost wise?

[AY Mod]

It's definitely there, maybe it had run flat. 

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/134352-electric-ev-hybrid-cars-news-and-discussion/

 

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, Georgeconna said:

Ouch that is some extra cost, I dont have an EV but I expect the fast chargers are more expensive that the slower ones and that charging at home is much better cost wise?

 

That.

Expect 7kW posts to broadly cost about the same as home charging. Rapid chargers about twice that.

Ionity charge 70p per kWh but that's stupid money.

I am dubious about that £204/£140 claim.. Diesel up the road from me is £1.42 per litre.

Edited August 10, 2021 by 30801

[Zero Gravitas]

53 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

It's definitely there, maybe it had run flat. 

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/134352-electric-ev-hybrid-cars-news-and-discussion/

 

 

Thank you - it looks like it was me after all... Although using EV as a search term definitely returned no results.  I'll add this to that thread (unless you advise otherwise)

[Zero Gravitas]

22 minutes ago, 30801 said:

 

That.

Expect 7kW posts to broadly cost about the same as home charging. Rapid chargers about twice that.

Ionity charge 70p per kWh but that's stupid money.

I am dubious about that £204/£140 claim.. Diesel up the road from me is £1.42 per litre.

 

£140 was the quote in the program, where they said it was 1100 miles.  Using my own trusty Skoda Octavia estate, which has averaged 61.3 mpg over 60,000 miles (that's proper measured, not off the trip computer, which is an average of 1.5 mpg optimistic), and based on a diesel cost of 135.9 per litre (yesterday at Tesco in Didcot), it would cost me £110.86

 

And presumably the program will have been made when diesel cost less than it does now (at 1.42 per litre it would cost me £115.83)

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Zero Gravitas said:

 

£140 was the quote in the program, where they said it was 1100 miles.  Using my own trusty Skoda Octavia estate, which has averaged 61.3 mpg over 60,000 miles (that's proper measured, not off the trip computer, which is an average of 1.5 mpg optimistic), and based on a diesel cost of 135.9 per litre (yesterday at Tesco in Didcot), it would cost me £110.86

 

Using my old Leaf which did a fairly typical 4 miles/kWh and GridServe's 30p/kWh it would cost £82.50 plus a bit for charging losses. Less than a hundred quid.

The same mileage from my domestic supply (which is what you use most) would be about forty quid.

[Zero Gravitas]

1 hour ago, 30801 said:

 

Using my old Leaf which did a fairly typical 4 miles/kWh and GridServe's 30p/kWh it would cost £82.50 plus a bit for charging losses. Less than a hundred quid.

The same mileage from my domestic supply (which is what you use most) would be about forty quid.

 

Fair point - although the whole idea was to see what would happen when you were out of range of the domestic supply.

 

In addition - for those 1100 miles using Gridserve chargers, you'd pay approx £40 less than me, or 0.275 pence per mile.  To replace my Octavia estate (trade in about £7000)  with an equivalent-size EV -  say a Skoda Enyaq at £40000, and based on my average 7000 miles a year, it would take me just over 17 years to break even...

 

I'm not anti-EV at all, but at the moment, for the vast majority of us the economics just don't make any sense.

[njee20]

I’m not sure that’s true. The “vast majority” of us aren’t driving LEJOG and using fast chargers at service stations. Domestic charging is far cheaper, and I think including the actual cost of the car is a bit disingenuous. you have to assume it’s a purchasing decision when buying a new car anyway. 
 

FWIW in my car I have a long term average of 31mpg, so 1100 miles, and petrol at 139.9p would cost me £226. I could sell the car and buy a new EV for an identical amount, so actually yes, I could save money after 1 mile with an EV.  

Edited August 10, 2021 by njee20

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, Zero Gravitas said:

 

Fair point - although the whole idea was to see what would happen when you were out of range of the domestic supply.

 

In addition - for those 1100 miles using Gridserve chargers, you'd pay approx £40 less than me, or 0.275 pence per mile.  To replace my Octavia estate (trade in about £7000)  with an equivalent-size EV -  say a Skoda Enyaq at £40000, and based on my average 7000 miles a year, it would take me just over 17 years to break even...

 

I'm not anti-EV at all, but at the moment, for the vast majority of us the economics just don't make any sense.

 

There are a lot of EVs that are disappointingly forty grand...

 

You can get an MG 5 for half that and it has a genuine 200 mile range. It's not a nice as the Skoda but it's a price that's much more accessible and the mainstream manufacturers need to compete with that.

 

I do about 19k miles per year and I decided 18k per year was the break even point between an electric Mii and a petrol VW Up!

[Talltim]

A query about brake lights. When you take your foot fully off the accelerator in a EV, the regen affect actually slows you down quite a lot. Do the brake lights come on?

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Talltim said:

A query about brake lights. When you take your foot fully off the accelerator in a EV, the regen affect actually slows you down quite a lot. Do the brake lights come on?

 

Depends

There's some rate of deceleration that requires brake lights in regulations. If your EV can do that with regen then the lights will come on.

[Talltim]

Of course, its possible to deccelerate quite fast in an ICE with engine braking and no brake lights show

[PenrithBeacon]

It is currently three threads above this one in the Wheeltappers list

[alastairq]

I'll wait until the electrics are down to the prices of a basic Dacia Sandero before I can even consider changing over....

 

\especially as there is nothing on wheels made these past few years which even remotely take my fancy!

[Zero Gravitas]

2 hours ago, njee20 said:

I’m not sure that’s true. The “vast majority” of us aren’t driving LEJOG and using fast chargers at service stations. Domestic charging is far cheaper, and I think including the actual cost of the car is a bit disingenuous. you have to assume it’s a purchasing decision when buying a new car anyway. 
 

FWIW in my car I have a long term average of 31mpg, so 1100 miles, and petrol at 139.9p would cost me £226. I could sell the car and buy a new EV for an identical amount, so actually yes, I could save money after 1 mile with an EV.  

 

Again fair enough - so let's assume I replace the Octavia estate with another Octavia estate - I paid £14000 for this one at one year old, so let's assume I do the same. So the additional cost goes down from £33000 to £26000 and the break even point reduces to 13.5 years...

 

Including the cost of the car is not disingenuous at at - it's absolutely fundamental to the decision to switch to an EV. If I were in the happy position of having a car of equivalent value to an EV that meets my capacity needs, then I'd be giving it serious consideration - but I'm not.

 

However, that MG5 looks interesting.  If it has room in the load area for Mrs G's wheelchair that could be worth of investigation (but would still have a 7.75 year breakeven for a equivalent trim level to my current Octavia)

Edited August 10, 2021 by Zero Gravitas
predictive text - again!

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Zero Gravitas said:

However, that MG5 looks interesting.  If it has room in the load area for Mrs G's wheelchair that could be worth of investigation (but would still have a 7.75 year breakeven for a equivalent trim level to my current Octavia)

 

Apparently it's not estatey enough for estate car people but it's the only EV conventional estate you can buy that's not an SUV or a van.

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, alastairq said:

I'll wait until the electrics are down to the prices of a basic Dacia Sandero before I can even consider changing over....

 

If you're buying a car on purchase price + running costs then an LPG Sandero is a no-brainer if you live near somewhere that still sells LPG.

40% fuel cost savings for a one-off cost of £400.

[njee20]

1 hour ago, Zero Gravitas said:

 

Again fair enough - so let's assume I replace the Octavia estate with another Octavia estate - I paid £14000 for this one at one year old, so let's assume I do the same. So the additional cost goes down from £33000 to £26000 and the break even point reduces to 13.5 years...

 

Including the cost of the car is not disingenuous at at - it's absolutely fundamental to the decision to switch to an EV. If I were in the happy position of having a car of equivalent value to an EV that meets my capacity needs, then I'd be giving it serious consideration - but I'm not.

 

However, that MG5 looks interesting.  If it has room in the load area for Mrs G's wheelchair that could be worth of investigation (but would still have a 7.75 year breakeven for a equivalent trim level to my current Octavia)

I think it is disengenuous to compare the cost of a new EV SUV versus a one year old Octavia. You could at least make it fair by comparing to a new Octavia (or a Kodiaq as a much closed equivalent to the Enyaq), or a 1 year old EV. Otherwise it's an apples:oranges comparison, and comparing a new car to a used one of any ilk is very unlikely to stack up in favour of the new car financially.

That said ironically I am looking to change mine (not to an EV), because the buoyant second hand market means I'm being offered £3k more than I paid, and becuase I bought it used the interest rates and dealer contributions mean the monthly cost would be less on a brand new one (there's since been a new model).

[Zero Gravitas]

53 minutes ago, njee20 said:

I think it is disengenuous to compare the cost of a new EV SUV versus a one year old Octavia. You could at least make it fair by comparing to a new Octavia (or a Kodiaq as a much closed equivalent to the Enyaq), or a 1 year old EV. Otherwise it's an apples:oranges comparison, and comparing a new car to a used one of any ilk is very unlikely to stack up in favour of the new car financially.

That said ironically I am looking to change mine (not to an EV), because the buoyant second hand market means I'm being offered £3k more than I paid, and becuase I bought it used the interest rates and dealer contributions mean the monthly cost would be less on a brand new one (there's since been a new model).

 

No it's not disingenuous at all, because what I'm doing is showing the real cost of changing my vehicle.  And you're right - in the vast majority of cases the cheapest vehicle to own is the one you've got now. I could go out and buy a one-year old Octavia tomorrow if I wanted - but I'm not going to as that would cost me more in total than continuing to run the car I currently have. 

 

And that's all I was trying to show - that at the moment for me, and the majority of us, the cost of converting to an electric vehicle is so much greater compared to the cost saving of running an electric vehicle as to make it not financially sensible.  And that's partly because for the sort of EV I'd be interested in isn't yet old enough to have second-hand examples (an Enyaq is actually smaller inside than my Octavia) - if we do the sums again in three years time, when there will be second-hand Enyaqs on the forecourts (the cheapest second-had Enyqaq on auto trader is currently £38000) then we may get a different result - and there will come a point at which it will make financial sense to move to an EV.  But I'm still a long way away from that.

[njee20]

For you, I get it, but for the majority…? How can you know? I don’t think anyone will be surprised that buying a £40,000 car isn’t a good way to save money compared to not buying a £40,000 car. 
 

By that measure EVs will never make sense until you can pick one up for £50 on Facebook marketplace - ‘EV bangernomics’. But that’s not really the point. 

[boxbrownie]

4 hours ago, Talltim said:

A query about brake lights. When you take your foot fully off the accelerator in a EV, the regen affect actually slows you down quite a lot. Do the brake lights come on?

Yes, covered a few pages back…..it’s the law basically, or construction and use rules.

[boxbrownie]

4 hours ago, Talltim said:

Of course, its possible to deccelerate quite fast in an ICE with engine braking and no brake lights 

Edited August 10, 2021 by boxbrownie
Miss-read the reply

[Zero Gravitas]

25 minutes ago, njee20 said:

For you, I get it, but for the majority…? How can you know? I don’t think anyone will be surprised that buying a £40,000 car isn’t a good way to save money compared to not buying a £40,000 car. 
 

By that measure EVs will never make sense until you can pick one up for £50 on Facebook marketplace - ‘EV bangernomics’. But that’s not really the point. 

 

No - EVs will make sense when the cost of buying and running an EV over the lifetime of ownership is less than the cost of buying and running an ICE over the same timescale. 

 

And we're just not there yet.

[black and decker boy]

For that 1100 miles using just Tesla supercharger network, 5 stops in my model 3 (at 30-40mins max each), would cost £94.

 

If I chose my hotels wisely to get a destination charger, I could do it with probably 2 stops for £50.

 

it’s an artificial example as it doesn’t involve setting off from home with a full battery.

Running costs from me in nearly 1.5 years are 5p per mile (16000 miles) saving me over £1100 compared to my very good MPG diesel. I’m a fleet user though so capital cost isn’t part of my equation and I can see that for many, new EVs are too expensive. ExFleet EVs will start hitting the shops next year in reasonable quantity so hopefully that will help.

 

I am an EV convert and I sense a growing interest from a lot of people looking to make the switch in the next year or two once the retail price falls.

[APOLLO]

Lands End to John of Groats - 603 miles, return = 1206 miles.

 

My flying armchair (Rover 3.5 Litre V8 Saloon) does 22 MPG on a run.

 

So  1206 / 22 = 55 gallons, 55 x 4.53 (litres / gall) x £1.32 = £328.78

 

Good lord, I think I'll stay at home !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Brit15