Early BR computers memories and history

[DIRTY DIESEL]

When I first started as a box lad in 1982 I’d input train times into the NTN (I think) machine & would do an E3 1 enquiry for where all the 40s might be on the North Wales coast. 
Earlier today I was reporting every train that arrived & departed into TRUST, plus if I wanted to I could have done an E3 1 enquiry for where the mainline registered 40s may be. 
 

Having roughly used the same system for the passed 39 years, does anyone know why we still use this system to report trains and why BR/RT & now NR have never renewed to a completely new system?

 

We also use Tiger Rail to mirror CIS, and when earlier this year Tiger changed servers we weren’t able to to receive Tiger Rail until 4Cs sorted the problem, in those few weeks some of my colleagues went into meltdown...

[Norton961]

I worked for ICL when I graduated in 1970 and was” loaned” to BR to work at Rail House at Crewe where I wrote some COBOL programs relating to BREL.The one thing a remember was proposals from BR to have self propelled wagons each having a separate TOPS number and they would be tracked by TOPS readers scattered all over the country to track and monitor the moving wagons. Needless to say the technological issues were way behind the aspiration, so nothing happened, but an interesting proposal!

 

David

[BernardTPM]

I seem to recall that featured in Tomorrow's World. The apparent self-propelled wagon was, for the film, given a push so rolled by the camera pretending to be powered. Control/feedback by wiggly wires laid on the sleepers, I think.

[TheSignalEngineer]

We did a documentary about Automatic Train Protection systems at Bushey where BR Research had some kit on trial on the DC Lines. The bits with my hand round the back of the in-cab unit working the speed display like a ventriloquist's dummy were edited out. 

The cameraman couldn't get a decent shot through the front window of the Class 313 unit so we opened the front centre emergency door and I braced myself across the gap to stop him from falling out whilst he filmed passing a green at line speed, slowing on sight of a yellow and coming to a stand at a red. All this was done between service trains on a normal weekday.

Happy days of the old railway.

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, Norton961 said:

I worked for ICL when I graduated in 1970 and was” loaned” to BR to work at Rail House at Crewe where I wrote some COBOL programs relating to BREL.The one thing a remember was proposals from BR to have self propelled wagons each having a separate TOPS number and they would be tracked by TOPS readers scattered all over the country to track and monitor the moving wagons. Needless to say the technological issues were way behind the aspiration, so nothing happened, but an interesting proposal!

 

David

Maybe BR didn't get there but Kitmaster managed to produce them.

[Oldddudders]

When BR bought TOPS from Southern Pacific - a particularly useful investment if ever there was one - it inevitably bought their hardware spec too. So lots of IBM hardware turned up in TOPS offices. A schoolmate had been an installation tech for IBM, but by the time of TOPS had moved, via ICL, to Philips Electrologica. When I told him some of the hardware BR had bought, he was amazed, saying that that was obsolete when he had worked for IBM. It appeared that IBM had had to restart manufacture of some kit to meet the BR contract.

 

Had TOPS come onboard a decade earlier, might it have saved a greater % of the freight business that was already slipping away? But then, could it have existed in those primitive-tech days? Almost certainly not. 

 

When BT Advertising, which served the state-owned bus industry and others, as well as the railways, decided to invest in a computer space-reservation system for its poster-boards, it felt it needed a catchy TOPS-like name. Which meant that my late first wife Deb, who did data input and management, went to work for her OATS - Outdoor Advertising Total Sales. 

[Michael Hodgson]

Glad to hear your wife was getting her oats!

[Mike Storey]

On 20/08/2021 at 09:30, Oldddudders said:

Anecdotally the GN House computer, which was intended, with a fanfare of public trumpets, to write the new WTT for the Deltics on ECML, actually got the first train as far as Finsbury Park and that was that. By the time I had an office on the 7th floor there in 1990, there was no sign, although I don't recall much use of the ground-floor room in which the computer had been housed.

 

I recall, when we both in that office, that several floors had been locked off as unsafe, including much of the ground floor?

[Mike Storey]

Many of these contributions help explain why BR's last, very big in-house computer system, APTIS, was just that. A combination of a lack of data transmission capacity from third parties, and poor experience of third party conversions (bar TOPS) to meet BR needs, perhaps?

[MyRule1]

On 25/08/2021 at 21:09, BernardTPM said:

I seem to recall that featured in Tomorrow's World. The apparent self-propelled wagon was, for the film, given a push so rolled by the camera pretending to be powered. Control/feedback by wiggly wires laid on the sleepers, I think.

 

While selecting photo's for this thread

 

I came across this picture taken at Mickelover in Sept's 1973

 

 

although not that clear - in my memory the wagon behind the Cl17 looks like the one seen on Tomorrows World - am I correct?

[BernardTPM]

From memory, yes, it was a lowfit, which that appears to be. I assume one of those converted to carry containers as discussed in another thread recently. I'm guessing that Clayton might be (D)8958.

Edited December 15, 2021 by BernardTPM

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

Many of these contributions help explain why BR's last, very big in-house computer system, APTIS, was just that. A combination of a lack of data transmission capacity from third parties, and poor experience of third party conversions (bar TOPS) to meet BR needs, perhaps?

I wonder?  National payroll system appears to have worked very well once bedded in. (as in i.e. we all got paid although I have heard of very occasional transfer problems with people on weekly cash but we never had any problems with 4 weekly credit transfer);  TSDB and all the various bleed-offs worked extremely well and were perfectly reliable;  BR mods/new programs added to TOPS all seem to have worked well including POIS;  the 'iron ring' data link worked well and BR was able to sell high speed data transfer capacity to commercial telecomms companies;  and the functionality levels of Micromail still makes email look like something knocked up in a Calfornian winebar on a Friday night although admittedly it only had 14,000 people using it. 

[Mike Storey]

23 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I wonder?  National payroll system appears to have worked very well once bedded in. (as in i.e. we all got paid although I have heard of very occasional transfer problems with people on weekly cash but we never had any problems with 4 weekly credit transfer);  TSDB and all the various bleed-offs worked extremely well and were perfectly reliable;  BR mods/new programs added to TOPS all seem to have worked well including POIS;  the 'iron ring' data link worked well and BR was able to sell high speed data transfer capacity to commercial telecomms companies;  and the functionality levels of Micromail still makes email look like something knocked up in a Calfornian winebar on a Friday night although admittedly it only had 14,000 people using it. 

 

Quite so. Almost all BR mods using BR transmission systems. Thus, I am not sure about that which you wonder?

 

That did not change radically until Tribute and then the various third party payroll, accounting and train reporting and broadcasting systems used by individual TOCs, etc.

[jpendle]

On 26/08/2021 at 03:04, Oldddudders said:

When BR bought TOPS from Southern Pacific

On 21/08/2021 at 10:15, The Stationmaster said:

Another little known fact was that traditional BR line connections were way ahead of BT in that the baud rate used by BR was much higher than that used by BT.

 

A little bit of thread drift.

 

SP's internal phone network was so good that they started to compete with AT&T to offer long distance calling in the US.

Eventually SPRINT (Southern Pacific Railroad Internal Networking Telephony) was sold off (to GTE) and became a stand alone long distance and mobile phone company.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[5BarVT]

On 21/08/2021 at 23:09, Wheatley said:

I remember the payroll tape going astray ! The story we were told was that someone had sent the backup tape to the bank instead of the real one and it had been (correctly) rejected. 

Story I heard was that the ‘real’ tape had been put in a ‘test purposes only’ can so wasn’t processed by the bank (RBS I recall).

Paul.

[Vanfit]

I recall the large computer system installed in a clean room area of the old Reading Signal Works, I think it might have been at least partly for payroll.

 

There was an associated standby diesel generator set that we maintained from Reading Outdoor Machinery Department (ODM). An electrician was permanently allocated to the Signal Works for electrical/general machine maintenance etc and was assisted by a fitter for routine maintenance and testing of the standby set.

 

Payroll data inputting (card punching) was carried out on the podium of Western Tower Reading.

[Pandora]

On 22/08/2021 at 14:06, MyRule1 said:

I was surprised recently when this came into my hands

 

 

It's a tops print out for the "Loco's available at Temple Mills at 20:29 on 29.03.74", the picture above is taken on a mobile phone  but I will be scanning it fairly soon.

 

The loco's listed are:

 

 

 

33/1 33052 HG

33/2 33111 EH

33/3 Uknown

33/3 53211 HG

35/0 7028 00

35/0 7193 OC

37/0 6967 SF

37/0 37017 MR

37/0 37028 MR

37/0 37073 MR

 

 

 

 

I wonder how many other early TOPS reports still exist?

The date of the report  for 29/03/74,   just wondering why  one of the class 37s   is still identified as 6967,  was it running as 6967,  or with a 37XXX tops number

Edited December 13, 2021 by Pandora

[Pannier Tank]

16 minutes ago, Pandora said:

The date of the report  for 29/03/74,   just wondering why  one of the class 37s   is still identified as 6967,  was it running as 6967,  or with a 37XXX tops number

 

(D)6967 was re-numbered 37267 in 05/74 so, yes, the running number on 29/03/74 would have been 6967.

 

[MyRule1]

On 09/12/2021 at 10:31, Vanfit said:

I recall the large computer system installed in a clean room area of the old Reading Signal Works, I think it might have been at least partly for payroll.

 

There was an associated standby diesel generator set that we maintained from Reading Outdoor Machinery Department (ODM). An electrician was permanently allocated to the Signal Works for electrical/general machine maintenance etc and was assisted by a fitter for routine maintenance and testing of the standby set.

 

Payroll data inputting (card punching) was carried out on the podium of Western Tower Reading.

I spent just under a year working  in  the computer programming team at  Reading in 1975. At that time the computer was used as a development machine for projects elsewhere. I was part of a team drifting a system Sealink (Channel Islands) the best elements of that job were the trips down to Canute House (aka the old Southampton Docks terminus for installation and training. Apart from the canteen the rest of the signal works was,strictly out of bounds for us. As the canteen was of the greasy spoon variety some of us took our meals in the canteen in Western Tower, which gave a good view of the station for lunchtime train spotting.  Interestingly the only items marked GWR (was HER. See next two posts) we ever found  in our section of the signal works were the toilet paper holders.

Edited December 14, 2021 by MyRule1

[Oldddudders]

HER? GWR?

[MyRule1]

12 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

HER? GWR?

I haven't got used to the Amazon Fire spell checker yet. LNER = Knee, SR = we, LMS  = one

Edited December 14, 2021 by MyRule1

[MartinRS]

When I was a trainee technician in the S&T in the 1970s I can remember having to collect the punched tape from the TOPS office at Tinsley Yard and walking down to Tinsley Tower SB with it. The TOPS office was opposite the BR exchange at Tinsley, just across the foyer. I could never figure out why BR didn't put a data link in, and just spew the data to to a punched tape machine in the tower. I think the punched tape machines were made by Addo.
Earlier in this thread someone mentioned fax machines. I can remember being called-out to look at a (Ventrex?) fax machine, in an office next to the Woodhead Route. The whole page of the fax was a solid mass of colour. It was found that every time a Class 76 passed the office when a fax was being received a huge EMP pulse would corrupt the data.

[Mike Storey]

4 hours ago, MartinRS said:

When I was a trainee technician in the S&T in the 1970s I can remember having to collect the punched tape from the TOPS office at Tinsley Yard and walking down to Tinsley Tower SB with it. The TOPS office was opposite the BR exchange at Tinsley, just across the foyer. I could never figure out why BR didn't put a data link in, and just spew the data to to a punched tape machine in the tower. I think the punched tape machines were made by Addo.
Earlier in this thread someone mentioned fax machines. I can remember being called-out to look at a (Ventrex?) fax machine, in an office next to the Woodhead Route. The whole page of the fax was a solid mass of colour. It was found that every time a Class 76 passed the office when a fax was being received a huge EMP pulse would corrupt the data.

 

I suspect this was because the internal BR system was not yet up to the mark with data transfer. In the mid-70's, I used to have to operate a telex machine at Victoria, and then later Cannon Street, just to make bog standard continental seat reservations. It required special GPO links to do this, as the BR network could not cope, and it used to take about 10/15 minutes to send one message (let alone get a reply).

 

However, just a query, was it punched tape, or punched cards that you took down to the SB?

[The Stationmaster]

8 hours ago, MyRule1 said:

I spent just under a year working  in  the computer programming team at  Reading in 1975. At that time the computer was used as a development machine for projects elsewhere. I was part of a team drifting a system Sealink (Channel Islands) the best elements of that job were the trips down to Canute House (aka the old Southampton Docks terminus for installation and training. Apart from the canteen the rest of the signal works was,strictly out of bounds for us. As the canteen was of the greasy spoon variety some of us took our meals in the canteen in Western Tower, which gave a good view of the station for lunchtime train spotting.  Interestingly the only items marked GWR (was HER. See next two posts) we ever found  in our section of the signal works were the toilet paper holders.

Unfortunately I think that  the signal works canteen for 'clean clothes' staff - which was associated as well with the hostel on the floor above it - was closed  some time  after Western Tower was opened although I was still using it in the late 1960s.  It used to serve a really good meal at a very sensible (i.e. cheap) price

[5BarVT]

25 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Unfortunately I think that  the signal works canteen for 'clean clothes' staff - which was associated as well with the hostel on the floor above it - was closed  some time  after Western Tower was opened although I was still using it in the late 1960s.  It used to serve a really good meal at a very sensible (i.e. cheap) price

First night as a B.R. employee was spent in the hostel. It was still open in 1980, closed 31.12.80 I think (based on when my payslip deductions for a code that I think was Hostel Rent stopped).  Canteen was still open in 1983 serving good meals at a good price.

Cue funny story:  fire warden in Divisional office reported to my wife’s bosses wife that he had been seen lunching in the canteen ‘with a woman’.  “Oh yes, that’ll be Rae.” was the reply.

Paul.