Progress on Yeovil

[Donw]

Absolutely superb Laurie. 
 

Don

[Laurie2mil]

Well, I didn't expect such a wide and complimentary response to the video!  Seriously, though, big thank-yous to everyone who has watched (even a bit of) it and written or reacted to it.  It really is very encouraging and flattering, and it does help keep the mojo going - the mojo that gets you into the room and puts the soldering iron on, not the one that keeps reviewing the plans and pictures.

The Pen Mill and Weymouth  "end" evolved as the dreams of a railway room became reality.  I am a very lucky boy.  At the outset, I just wanted to model Yeovil Town to scale: the approaches at both ends would be determined by how much space was in whichever room I was allowed to put it in, and would probably resolve into going straight into a short sector plate or traintable.  But with the building of the railway room there was suddenly the space to model the railway triangle (and the generous fiddle yards to run it) in a continuous loop with reasonable radii on the scenic section (the sharpest radius is the transition down to 3' as the 4 tracks leave through a cutting, they're a bit sharper in the fiddle yards).  Then it was just a Templotting exercise to try and get the best proportions I could visualise in my mind: I've just been too impatient to build a model of the model, I'm afraid, tho' I can well see its advantages).   

I am pleased with how the flow of the lines has worked out, and I think - more by happenstance than judgement - the proportions work out OK.  The length of visible runs on the whole Weymouth curve and Junction line reverse curve are 14' and 13'7" respectively (which scales at c.0.4 miles), and on the branch from YT to Pen Mill 10'3" (scale 0.3 miles).  But from the observer point of view, that's probably about right: how often does a viewpoint allow you to see a whole 14-coach train?  Given our normal viewing distance and field of view, a 12-coach Channel Island Express would occupy c.40% of the scenic'd length of the Weymouth lines. 

If the wide vista is your thing, I think there's something about that ratio - your longest train occupying 1/3 - 1/2 the visible length of track - which just "looks right" to me.  This was another lesson from Buckingham, where the layout is clearly divided into separate visible sections - effectively dioramas - which are relatively short and with curves which are now regarded as quite tight.  it works because you sit close to the layout, inside the curves, and the longest trains on Buckingham are a 5-coach express behind a 4-6-0 and a 13-wagon (all short wheelbase) train with 0-6-0.  They both look impressively long and are clearly "the big trains" - because they fill about half the length of track you can see in any view.

It all shows just how much we have to contract things in our models.  In my view (now), a big layout works best "artistically" if it is divided into a series of scenes, each about the width of our visual field when seen from the intended viewing distance. 

When I first drew out the triangle, I thought the space was huge and I could re-create its open parkland feel of flat pasture with a decent river meandering across it, populated by many full-grown specimen trees dotted here and there across its acres.  But my mind was working in modelling mode:  when Ian Smith gifted his lovely specimen trees, modelled to a full natural height of c.70' (and how did you know there was a  Scots pine copse , Ian?) - they triggered the necessary reality check: just a single elm in the middle looked gigantic - as if a 4(or even 7)mm tree had been transplanted onto the 2mm layout.  

So a re-setting of the ambition and concept. Although apparently very spacious in modelling terms, each side of the railway triangle is still only about 1/3 as long as it should be (the 4-track cutting would be in next-door's greenhouse), so this end can't be to scale and has to be "based on".  The views naturally concentrate on 3 areas: Pen Mill junction and shed, the crossings exiting Yeovil Town, and the coming together of the Weymouth and Junction lines.  There are natural copses at the Pen Mill and YT ends : they won't completely stop you seeing YT from the Pen Mill end (or vice versa), but like a theatre in the round, they will frame the view at one end or the other, and keep the focus there.  The hills and cutting at the third corner where the 4 tracks "disappear" will frame the view there.  The River Yeo and its mill stream and tributary brook will still be there across the middle, probably just with some "river-bank planting" to complete the scene and keep things in proportion.  Certainly no room for the parkland acres and specimen oaks! 

Re-reading this, a final point: please don't think I don't equally admire layouts which craft a narrow view of a train passing the end of a street, or between industrial buildings - these are equally ways in which we are see real railways (probably the more usual ones), and equally enjoyable and impressive when modelled.  I like it all!!

This all started out with the intention of simply acknowledging and thanking every one who has expressed an interest in this project, and somehow has morphed into quite something else.  If you've followed so far, the photos and plan below might help.  My apologies for wandering off-piste.

 

 

Laurie

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Laurie2mil
spacing pics

[Donw]

Wander away Lawrie it is all of interest. The subject of how to fit in a practical space something huge like a piece of railway is of interest to most of us I feel. At one extreme you can shrink something down to a point where the typical operations can just about be carried out with reduced trains but it takes something like your layout to show what you may be cutting out. I remember in many locations the sense of build up as you saw the train approaching.  This is something missing in the typical BLT. Obviously if you haven't got the space you have to make do with what will fit. I am minded that in your space there would alternatively be room for a multi station layout with perforce very short inter station distances. Such a layout might be very interesting to operate and could create a sense of operational reality.  Your approach captures the sense of space and distance of a real station and the feeling of running into a station when travelling by train. I regret that for personal reasons I cannot see it in the flesh but very much appreciate the photos etc.

 

Don

[VRBroadgauge]

I can see why you're enamored by Yeovil Laurie. The landscape is truly  wonderful. It's so different to my part of the world.

 

[Sithlord75]

15 hours ago, Laurie2mil said:

 

 

Are we able to identify the various vehicles on this train?  It would be nice to be able to replicate it at some point.

[Sithlord75]

1 hour ago, VRBroadgauge said:

I can see why you're enamored by Yeovil Laurie. The landscape is truly  wonderful. It's so different to my part of the world.

 

What's wonderful is Laurie having an Aussie shed sized room to capture the feel.

[65179]

8 minutes ago, Sithlord75 said:

 

 

Are we able to identify the various vehicles on this train?  It would be nice to be able to replicate it at some point.

 

Late LMS van, SR CCT, BR CCT, something else, LNER/BR brake van (can't determine how long the footboard are on my small screen).

 

Simon

[Caley Jim]

Last van (in front of the brake van) would look to me to be 6-wheeled.  Would need an enlargement to be sure.

 

Jim

[richbrummitt]

I thought that initially but am convinced there are only 2 wheels on the near side of the vehicle based on the shadow positions. 

[VRBroadgauge]

A question about point control Laurie.

 

What point control systems are you using on Yeovil? I'm aware that you've used wire in tube for some of your points. Is that right across the board?

I'm looking at using servo motors and levers for all my non fiddle yard points. The levers are cost prohibitive but a long desired item. I was planning to use the 4mm society etched versions but it appears that they're out of stock.

I have 29 points including two double slips and 6 signals on the layout proper and 13 in the fiddle yard. I may even have a crack at etching some versions of my own.

I'd be interested to know what you're planning.

[ShadowinLinby]

The Mark 1 lever frame kit is the one available to non-members of the Scalefour Society which is currently out of stock. There is a Mark 2 version, unfortunately only available to members, which is a much better design particularly because the micro switches can be removed individually and there is an interlocking kit which can be attached to the levers. 

[Donw]

If you are interested in doing your own take a look through Jim Watts thread he did his own lever frame and locking frame.

 

you can always just use a row of switches as a stop gap if you are waiting for stuff to become available

 

Don

[Laurie2mil]

My apologies for the delay in my reply, Bruce.  A number of things have come at me from left field in the last 3 weeks.

 

My only lever frame at the moment is for Yeovil Town Goods yard, which (conveniently) has the necessary 5 levers.  The lever frame is the Scalefour Society one (Mark 1) which makes up beautifully but - as an etched kit - does require some putting together.  The feel of it is lovely, tho' - Tony Gee said why bother to connect it to any points at all and not just keep stroking it from normal to reverse to normal to reverse to normal to reverse . . . . . . . .   I've soldered a brass bracket front and back so it can sit lower into the board and send the wires off underneath to the points:

 

The lever frame is designed to take a standard small micro-switch for each lever, but for this one I've preferred to fix the microswitches for crossing polarity at the other ends, and drive them from the linkages to the tie-bars.

The Mark 2 Scalefour Soc. leverframe has the advantage that it allows its microswitches to be removed individually, without having to dismantle the whole thing if you've ganged up a number of them side-by-side to make a long one.  My servos are currently all operated by simple toggle switches (chiz chiz) but the plan for the main control panel for Yeovil Town Station is to replace them with a leverframe one day which will need to be 45 levers (ie. 9 of the Scalefour Soc. units), each fitted with a microswitch to operate its servo via a relay.  I'm thinking to get over the issue of microswitch extractability by keeping each 5-lever-frame unit separate and not putting long pivot rods right the way through them all.  Will have to see if that can work out neatly - but it's a very long way off!

 

The lever frame is connected directly to the SME - now Wizard Models - wire-in-tube (Code SM4) which I find superb: the tube is PTFE and virtually friction-free and can be brought down to about a 3"(7.5cm) radius without a problem, but does need to be supported all along its length due to its flexibility.

The same wire-in-tube operates the wagon turntables from their sliders, but this runs on the surface of the pcb which forms the "baseboard" hereabouts: I used "No More Nails" or something similar with good initial grab all along it for these and kept smoothing it into place (wetted fingers) until it set hard enough to leave safely alone and hold it down: 

 

However, to hold it in place my preference is to thread the PTFE tube through brass tube (I/D 1.6mm min) which you can bend how you wish above, under or through the baseboard and round obstacles, simply anchoring it at each end by soldering to a short countersunk brass screw screwed into a convenient piece of wood (extract the PTFE tube before you solder (!) - it threads back in  easily).  I'm afraid I don't have any photos of it under the board for the goods yard above, but I'm using it to take the drive from servos on the surface for the fiddle yard and Pen Mill points:

 

All points bar the 5 in the goods yard use servos (I like the HobbyKing HK15178 analogue servos):  those at the Yeovil end are mounted directly under the point tie-bars and drive them directly (bar 1 or 2 which use wire-in-PTFE-in-brass tubes where it's a bit congested, all still under the baseboard).  I would have mounted them on top (I don't guzunder as easily as I used to, and it's easier adjusting and soldering from on top) but there's a brook c.10' below rail level tight up along one side and the tractor-go area on the other which make a direct wire-in-tube from the edge of the board difficult. 

The omega-loop function is most easily achieved by bending a simple zig-zag in the wire, best done with round-nosed pliers to reduce the risk of fracture from making the bends acute (but the wires are easy to replace when they're on top).

At the Pen Mill (other) end and in the fiddle yard there is no problem with it all being on top, and the 1.6mm O/D of the PTFE tube is an easy slide through a channel cut in the 2mm ply trackbed to get under the tracks which are in the way.  They can get to look a bit messy, tho':

 

3 of them had to go through the baseboard in a swan-neck bend and then run underneath to the point tie-bar 'cos I forgot to channel out the trackbed before I laid the nearest track (dohhh): 

 

The final linkage for these uses the old GEM Mercontrol piano wire in copper tube - it's the stiffness in the wire which is important and depends on the depth of the board/length of tube and length of the operating arms above and below to get the right amount of twist and bend to act as the omega loop in the linkage; the old GEM stuff seems just right.   (And you can see I drilled the holes for the tubes in the wrong place too):

 

The use of electrical point operation for the great majority of points is determined by the need to change the operating panel positions depending on staff levels (enough for both or just 1 control panel) -  and the flexibility of same to guzunder. 

Megapoints + analogue servos + microswitches works for me and is, overall, no more expensive than, eg.,  Tortoise or Cobalts.  Like you, Bruce, I have c. 40 points in the fiddle yard when it gets maxed out, and the main issue for me has been the expense of servo mounts cf. home-made.  I have tried making a variety of brackets to hold a servo and microswitch from various aluminium angles and channels, and have now settled on the simplest of all: a square hole drilled/sawn in the baseboard top and the servo below screwed directly into it from above, as in the pics.  The microswitch is also screwed straight onto the the board top and operated by one of the servo horns.  For 6mm and 9mm thick board tops the dimensions work out perfectly with minimal packing for the microswitch.  No cost, least work, and lowest profile for a top-mounted servo and switch, so easy to hide behind a backscene, under a low embankment or in a building (the ones in the picture above will be behind the backscene). 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Laurie2mil
improve layout

[Sithlord75]

Can confirm the Scalefour Society lever frame is very nice to operate.

[Laurie2mil]

On 05/09/2022 at 10:15, 65179 said:

 

Late LMS van, SR CCT, BR CCT, something else, LNER/BR brake van (can't determine how long the footboard are on my small screen).

 

Simon

 

Thank you for asking the question, Kevin; sorry I can't answer it (I'm hopeless on stock); thank you for stepping into the breach, Simon.  This is the best I can do, a hybrid SR van train with with an approximation to a BR loco (Rule 1 applies), in situ approaching the virtual bridge over the River Yeo from a similar viewpoint on the virtual Wyndham Hill (comparison with the real photo above shows just how much the triangle is compressed):

 

 

There is a short video of this train on YouTube:

 

My thanks to everyone who has taken an interest and helped with their comments and identifications.

 

Laurie

 

Edited October 8, 2022 by Laurie2mil
Add video link

[Siberian Snooper]

Usually NPCS trains, as above have a BG vehicle for the guard, rather than a freight brake.

 

 

[Laurie2mil]

On 05/09/2022 at 10:15, 65179 said:

 

Late LMS van, SR CCT, BR CCT, something else, LNER/BR brake van (can't determine how long the footboard are on my small screen).

 

Simon

 

 

On 08/10/2022 at 13:19, Siberian Snooper said:

Usually NPCS trains, as above have a BG vehicle for the guard, rather than a freight brake.

 

 

 

Point taken, Siberian Snooper, thank you for your interest.

 

I wanted to see what an approximation to the train in the photograph would look like on the model with the SR vans and BR loco that I have, based on Simon's identifications.  For the LMS van on the back, I just added an SR one: maybe saving a path and loco by tripping the brake van down to Yeovil Town on the back of the parcels, to be used down there for one of the transfer freights perhaps?  Just a thought - the operations side and stock knowledge are still steep learning curves.

 

I should acknowledge that I'm very pleased to be the custodian of the Scenery van built by Chris Waite (CXW1 of an adjacent Parish), and of all the other vans which came from Bill Rankin's bench.  The loco is the overscale Langley Class 4 whitemetal body on the old Poole Farish Black 5 chassis it was designed for, with a crude attempt at finescaling to make a "quick" layout loco.  

 

Laurie

 

[65179]

4 hours ago, Laurie2mil said:

 

I wanted to see what an approximation to the train in the photograph would look like on the model with the SR vans and BR loco that I have, based on Simon's identifications.  For the LMS van on the back, I just added an SR one: maybe saving a path and loco by tripping the brake van down to Yeovil Town on the back of the parcels, to be used down there for one of the transfer freights perhaps?  Just a thought - the operations side and stock knowledge are still steep learning curves.

 

Laurie

 

 

It's a bit simpler than that Laurie. The guard needs a brake and a stove. In the absence of a BG or similar then a brake van will do.

 

I think your version would be OK without the brake van on the rear because you've had to include a 6 wheel passenger brake (by the looks of things) to represent one of the CCTs in your train.

 

Simon

[Laurie2mil]

And so to the Fiddle Yards . . . .  If they don't excite you, then I'm sorry, but this is what I've been doing in recent months.

 

Fiddle Yards are often a bit of an afterthought, hidden away, embarrassing  persona non grata.  A few parallel sidings or sector plate thrown into the left-over space.  But the design of the Fiddle Yards (or storage sidings if you prefer) has a large impact on the operational efficiency of the layout, and is critical to maximise the "play factor" of the fully developed project.  So what do they have to do on Yeovil?

 

The main fiddle yard area in the Yeovil layout has to accommodate trains from/to 6 tracks - 3 "ends" - 4 routes + 1 loco shed:  The Up and Down Weymouth Lines  are basically a twin track roundy-roundy; the Up and Down Durston Lines branch from the Up end of the Weymouth lines in a double junction; the Up and Down Junction Lines just end.  The Durston and Junction Lines are independent of each other; both are out-and-back. 

 

All the lines ran local passenger and goods services, light engine workings, auto-trains and railcar, parcels, papers and milk, plus long excursion trains on summer weekends and other special services.  The Junction and Durston lines ran several transfer freights daily (up to 40 wagons) between the Yeovil stations, and the Weymouth lines additionally carried premier passenger and goods expresses notably the Channel Islands Boat Expresses and the express perishables.  I have made a start on drawing up a sequence and so far have whittled it down to 250 movements.  Such a range and number of trains means that locos and stock will be the limiting factor for a long time. 

 

 

And how many operators?  How to divide up the lines and services between them?  How many operating positions, where best to put them, and what to include on the control panels at each?  How to send trains between Yeovil Town fiddle yard?  How best to maximise the play factor when there are many operators or just one (ie. me)?

 

The possibilities are legion.  I soon realised that you have to make some executive decisions and build up the design on those, and keep visualising, gaining familiarity with the system and gathering more information on the prototype services and stock.  Another of those circular, iterative processes.  The conflicts and compromises become clearer, and a hierarchy of priorities crystallises out: thus evolves a tailored list of "Needs" and "Wants", some of which are nigh-on universal, many personal, and some (like the loft ladder) peculiar to Yeovil:

 

NEEDS:

·       Full access to the loft ladder without dis-assembly of baseboards.

·       Sufficient room to get round the outside of the layout without having to duck-under (not an absolute requirement to start with, but it is now!)

·       Ruling minimum radius 2'6" / 762mm; absolute minimum radius 2’3” / 680mm.

·       Maximum capacity.

·       Maximum flexibility in operation.

·       DC Control.

·       All electricals within my own comprehension and build ability.

·       Easy switching between multiple operators and sole operator.

 

WANTS:

.       Able to store the whole range of prototype trains and permit their prototypical movements for all 3 lines (Weymouth, Junction &  Durston), Up & Down; so: 

        o   Variable-length roads with run-round +/- turning;

        o   Short dead-end sidings for light engines and motor trains;

        o   Out-&-Back as well as round-and-round working of Up and Down Weymouth lines (to maximise use of limited stock);

·       Simple, intuitive switching with LED indicators for controller, route and storage road selected.

·       Minimise stock handling.

·       Ideally, a sole operator at Yeovil Town to have full operational control of the station and Junction and Durston lines.

·       Minimal interruptions in playing trains to manage the Fiddle Yard.

·       Simplest design and operation given the above priorities: KISS!

 

DECISIONS

·       3 independent Fiddle Yards each with their own control panel: Up, Down, and Junction, + a separate panel for Pen Mill Loco.

·       ALL Durston Line trains to operate ONLY into and out of the Up Yard.

·       Control panels located inside the circuit (where there is good viewing and space) when >1 operator , but easily re-located to the outside (alongside Pen Mill loco depot) for ease of access when sole operation.

·       Hence all point operation has to be electrical (servos via Megapoints).

·       Simplified "Block" bell system between Fiddle Yards and Yeovil Town (modelled on Peter Denny's Buckingham).

·       CCTV for easy viewing of storage road occupation by Yeovil Town operator(s).

·       Operation of the "Denny Yard" and turntables by hand for simplicity (!)

·       A "Denny"-type Yard (which can be elevated to rotate above the Up Yard, and easily removed and stored separately) to get round the loft ladder problem.

 

The track plan is max'd out from the start - in a few years time I (or someone else) don't want to find myself saying "Now why did I do it like that? - If I'd done it like this, I could have got another loop in and have that weed-killer train!  Only a few of the loops will be built to start with: the rest will come on line as locos and stock are accrued to fill them. 

There are other design features which also have a logic behind them (!)  How the yards operate and integrate with the Yeovil Town end, and the specifics of the wiring and switching, route selection, transfer of trains between Town and Yard operators, and between dual and single operating loci, are all "another matter": those who are - if anyone is - interested, please ask!

 

So to keep this post in some sort of proportion, I'll cut to the Fiddle Yards track plan and the control panels diagrams.  They should be more or less self-explanatory (if not, I've failed on the "intuitive switching" want), but it may help to say that the green lines on the track plan indicate the boundaries between scenic and fiddle yard areas; dotted tracks are isolating sections; larger circles are knobs and switches; smaller circles are indicator LEDS.  Finally, a photo of progress so far at the Junction/Weymouth end: the copper-clad sheet covers the loft ladder recess and will be the track bed of the "Denny Yard" in the Junction Yard: this gizmo is now in the planning stage!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you to those who have made it this far (and to those who tried and baled out en route, though you won't know).

 

Laurie Adams

 

[phixer64]

Simply stunning. Keep up the fantastic work.

 

Regards Jeff.

[Laurie2mil]

Thank you, Jeff et al, for your reactions and compliment - encouraging as always.

Laurie

[Donw]

Well thought out Laurie quite a lot of work to do.  You mention Megapoints his stuff seems pretty good not cheap when you include the panels. I am working on Arduinos to control my servos.  

 

Don

[richbrummitt]

12 hours ago, Donw said:

Well thought out Laurie quite a lot of work to do.  You mention Megapoints his stuff seems pretty good not cheap when you include the panels. I am working on Arduinos to control my servos.  

 

Don

I’m using just the servo board (12 servos) from them. The switching is done from a lever frame with microswitches. For someone who is a bear of little brain when it comes to electronics (although I can write code) I’m happy to spend a modest sum for an easier life. I appreciate that for others the control electronics is an area they enjoy investing time into. 

[CWJ]

I've just discovered this thread and layout for the first time; what a great example of smooth, gentle, superelevated curves*.  I can't be alone in wanting to see an HST gliding around it at a scale 90mph or so!

 

Cheers,

 

Will

 

* sounds like something from a ladies' moisturiser advert - apologies for any embarrassment caused!

[MarshLane]

2 hours ago, CWJ said:

I've just discovered this thread and layout for the first time; what a great example of smooth, gentle, superelevated curves*.  I can't be alone in wanting to see an HST gliding around it at a scale 90mph or so!

 

You're probably not .. but you may need to explain to Laurie what an HST is ... the Southern Railways didn't have them you know :). If I could 'borrow' some wheels to convert my Mk3 sets .. I could sneak it on one running night when Laurie is making coffee 😂.  Seriously, I suspect it would look rather good, slightly tilted on the curves.

 

Rich