A look at the Hawksworths

[7013]

Be nice when I can get my hands on a rake rather than just the one at present, odd really most carriage types have tended to appear together allowing a rake to be formed immediately (Pullmans, Gresleys) however all we have at present is one Hwaksworth coach, which can be slipped into a formation of other coaches,lets hope the others follow soon.

[brushman47544]

The website set up be Hornby for traders gives the following dates: NOTE! These are the dates that the items are expected to arrive at Margate, and are not set in stone! Allow a few days for deliveries to arrive at your local shop.

However, as it is the end of Hornby's financial half-year at the end of September, they will look to get them out of the door at Margate as quickly as they can, so as to help their financial figures!

 

R4404 20/9/2010

R4405 20/9/2010

R4406 30/9/2010

R4407 30/9/2010

R4408 27/9/2010

R4409 11/10/10

R4410 already arrived

R4411 27/9/2010

R4412 30/9/2010

R4413 30/9/2010

Earlier than "expected" , the B&C liveried BCK (R4408) is now in stock at Hattons with photos. Looks very good and the gangways aren't bent like the SK, but the curtains are the same...

[The Stationmaster]

Be nice when I can get my hands on a rake rather than just the one at present, odd really most carriage types have tended to appear together allowing a rake to be formed immediately (Pullmans, Gresleys) however all we have at present is one Hwaksworth coach, which can be slipped into a formation of other coaches,lets hope the others follow soon.

 

Speaking to a chap in Modelzone last week his 'pipeline' (or whatever they call it??) for deliveries included 4 different Hawksworth coaches implying they would arrive either very close ogether or - according to him - possibly even at the same time 'It all depends on how they are feeling at the warehouse' he said.

[7013]

OK so we have established that some people do not give a hoot what coaches they put in a rake, others are more meticulous, I suppose I like many fall somehwere in between. So I am going to purchase a rake of the maroon Hawksworths and would like to run them in some semblance of order. If I start with R4411, then R4410, then R4412, then R4413. and R 4409 at one end. Would that be acceptable or would anyone arrange them differently?

[7013]

My Apologies

R4411 Brake 3rd

R4410 Coridor 3rd

R4412 Composite

R4413 1st/3rd Brake

R4409 Full Brake

[asmay2002]

OK so we have established that some people do not give a hoot what coaches they put in a rake, others are more meticulous, I suppose I like many fall somehwere in between. So I am going to purchase a rake of the maroon Hawksworths and would like to run them in some semblance of order. If I start with R4411, then R4410, then R4412, then R4413. and R 4409 at one end. Would that be acceptable or would anyone arrange them differently?

 

The first rule is always to look at photos of the real thing when you can and official documenst if you can lay your hands on them. One thing that immediately strikes you then is that wheras LNER and SR sets look fairly uniform (one Gresley looks pretty much like another and the SR had very rigidly defined sets) this was not the case on the LMS and GWR. On these two systems and the regions that followed them trains were often a haphazard mix of styles from different periods - the important thing was that they were the correct type (CK, BSK, etc). This didn't really end until large numbers of Mk1s were in service. Hence in early BR days a mix of Hawksworth and Collett stock might be more approppriate - doesn't look as nice as a nice tidy rake all of the same style but that's how it often was.

 

ASM

[Pennine MC]

Shakespear may have had something to say on the matter too................There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy, and it seems the old loco-centric mentality stll prevails. There is something rotten about trains, be they formed of wagons or coaches, when they are merely something for engines to haul.

 

Now you *know* I'm not a lococentric, given my particular interests

 

This is an interesting heresy you're promoting Ian and I think in some respects you making a valid point, well actually a couple of valid points. Yes, I don't doubt at all that many 'modellers' (running from those who are exclusively r-t-r right through to 'I even made the wheels' types) do go for what could be called 'representative' trains. Gradually - as with other aspects of modelling a railway (as opposed to building railway models) one might hope that their interest in train formations etc will develop and become more typical of the real thing in their chosen area or even a very accurate potrayal of it. In the proces of reaching that particular nirvana they might even get their freight vehicles looking as if they suit the traffic of that area and they might even, I hope, get at least one signal in the right form and place - it's all about learning beyond the modelling table or workbench.

Exactly. Few of us really have the time or the inclination to get every single aspect spot on. If I looked on every layout I see on this forum or at a show with a supercritical eye on the freight stock and how it was run, it would actually spoil my enjoyment

The other part of it is what happened in real life. All the Railways, certainly from the late grouped period, and probably much earlier, formed their passenger trains in accordance with carriage/coach etc marshalling circulars/instructions or whatever a particular railway called them. These normally specified coach by type - not by who designed it (although that effectively happened with some specialised vehicles) and on secondary and branch services what would as often as not be used was the nearest equivalent. When trains were strengthened - be it preplanned or on an ad-hoc basis - it would often be a case of specifying a vehicle type but that might well be influenced by what was on hand/ readily available.

...

My last real involvement with such matters (odd vehicle swops apart) from the pre-planning end was, and I now frighten myself, almost 40 years ago. And very often it would be the case that the only 'specification' would be for a certain number of seats, and coaching stock control folk would do their best to find something that matched. If they hadn't got the right vehicle they would use what they did have.

...

Coming a bit nearer to today I was last involved with a large passenger yard dealing with loco hauled trains a mere 27 or so years ago. If a vehicle had to come out at short notice it was either not replaced or it was replaced by whatever could easily be pinched from another set or shunted out and ideally it would be of roughly the same type as what had come out. Of course that didn't happen to every train every day but it did happen to a set every now and then - and if we didn't have, say, a spare SO handy then an SK or even a CK it would be.

And the more up to date you come, the more that applies. I recall services I was familiar with in the 70s and 80s using Mk1 SK/TSO and Mk2 TSO fairly interchangeably. Another clear memory I have is a Liverpool - Plymouth rake of LMR AB Mk2s having a TSO replaced by one of the WR's downgraded AB Mk1 FOs, c1978

 

A principle that I've often tried to get across to modellers who think everything happened by the book - whilst officialdom can issue any number of guidelines, railwaymen are practical people who will try and get the job done with whatever is to hand

 

Next, I can see why Pennine made the comments he did, and understand some of the responses. There is a fine line between encouraging people to produce accurate models and dissuading them from coming into the hobby at all. And of course there are some who couldn't give a ***** anyway. Nevertheless, the amount of accurate information now available is immense compared with what was readily available only ten years ago, so it is arguable that we should indeed ensure that where that information is available we get it right. On a personal note, I can say that I certainly do derive pleasure from the knowledge that my train formations are correct. If the prototype information isn't readily available, then the next best thing as Pennine says is to produce something which is in line with what the traffic aimed at would dictate.

 

 

Pretty much what I was getting at Gilbert, although you've put it better

 

 

The first rule is always to look at photos of the real thing when you can and official documenst if you can lay your hands on them.

 

Always assuming they're readily available, which was also kinda my point

 

...

A R4412 composite and a R4413 brake composte would give more 1st class accomodation so it could be an important train you are building up. Trouble is, for a 5-coach train it has a terrible lot of luggage accomodation with a R4409, R4411 and a R4413 and not much seating for second class passengers!

 

Scrub the full brake and replace it with another R4410 all third.

See, you're doing it my way now

 

[robertcwp]

The first rule is always to look at photos of the real thing when you can and official documenst if you can lay your hands on them.

I think you really need both the official documents (eg carriage working books) and photos. There is usually a pretty good correlation between the two though with numerous small variations, such as a coach taken out or added, or slight differences in type for example a first replacing a composite or vice versa. There were often numerous changes in the workings within a timetable - I have copies of lots of WR books that had been kept up to date for changes and they are generally festooned with amendments.

 

One thing you don't find very often is a photo of a complete set of Hawksworth stock, other than say a three-coach set in the stock's latter years.

[SRman]

And on that subject, in a book (at home so I can't give the full reference right now) Diesels on the Western Region, there is a picture of an unidentified green D8XX Warship hauling 11 coaches in maroon livery over a curved viaduct in September 1964. 8 or 9 of those coaches are Hawksworths, most are clearly identifiable even end on from their flattened roof profiles at the ends. Also evident from the photo is the odd grouping or "clustering" of the side windows on most of the side-on Hawksworth coaches pictured.

 

That is the only picture I have come across showing an almost uniform rake of Hawksworth coaches; most other shots show one or maybe two in mixed rakes as other posters have described earlier.

 

EDIT Wed 22/09/2010: The book referred to was by hugh Dady, and the date of the pic should read September 4th 1965. The location was Largin viaduct. the fifth coach is not a Hawksworth and the ninth and tenth are indeterminate.

[Garry D100]

Blood and custard version now out

 

http://www.ehattons.....aspx?sid=32209

 

Upto what sort of date could I mix this with my maroon one?

[Garry D100]

And now here too http://railsofsheffield.com/br-hawksworth-pre-1953-composite-brake-w7839w-r4408-JJJA15253.aspx

 

For some reason the curtains don't look as offensive on this version.

I guess because they are against a lighter colour in comparison with the maroon version

[Taz]

Blood and custard version now out

 

http://www.ehattons.....aspx?sid=32209

 

Upto what sort of date could I mix this with my maroon one?

 

You would probably be ok up to about 1961/62. Bear in mind that the later you go the samller the proportion of blood & custard stock compared to maroon.

I model summer 1960 and currently plan to only get 1 of the b&c coaches (all 3rd) whilst obtaining all of the marron examples

[Garry D100]

Thanks for the information Taz.

Although looking at around late fifties early sixties I wonder if I will be better off just merging the odd maroon Hawksworth in a rake of maroon Mk1's.

[craigwelsh]

Thanks for the information Taz.

Although looking at around late fifties early sixties I wonder if I will be better off just merging the odd maroon Hawksworth in a rake of maroon Mk1's.

A strengthener if anything on the end rather than in the middle of the rake. Its normally only catering vehicles you see in the middle of a mk1 rake because BR didn't build much of those types until late into the program and even the WR namers kept old stock into about '61.

[Garry D100]

A strengthener if anything on the end rather than in the middle of the rake. Its normally only catering vehicles you see in the middle of a mk1 rake because BR didn't build much of those types until late into the program and even the WR namers kept old stock into about '61.

Thanks Craig

[Bernard Lamb]

While reading up about prototype DMUs in anticipation of getting my hands on a Craven I came across a reference to three Hawksworth coaches being painted dark DMU green and used to strengthen sets. That would be an interesting variant.

Bernard

[Fat Controller]

Thanks Craig

As has been mentioned on here in one of the previous incarnations of the site, a number of Hawksworth coaches (corridor 2nds?) were retained until the back end of the 1960s, as they they had wider compartment doors, and so could be used to stow refreshment trolleys. At least one made it into blue and grey, and was photographed as the lead vehicle in the Cornish Riviera in 1968 or 1969- the photo's in 'Heyday of the Warships', IIRC.

[Pennine MC]

While reading up about prototype DMUs in anticipation of getting my hands on a Craven I came across a reference to three Hawksworth coaches being painted dark DMU green and used to strengthen sets. That would be an interesting variant.

 

As has been mentioned on here in one of the previous incarnations of the site, a number of Hawksworth coaches (corridor 2nds?) were retained until the back end of the 1960s, as they they had wider compartment doors, and so could be used to stow refreshment trolleys. At least one made it into blue and grey, and was photographed as the lead vehicle in the Cornish Riviera in 1968 or 1969- the photo's in 'Heyday of the Warships', IIRC.

 

Not as long ago as that, IIRC both are mentioned in one or both of these:

 

 

My link, My link

 

I was merely responding to 7013's request.

 

Noted

 

If one is serious about railway modelling it stands to sence one should study photographs of real trains in ones chosen area and period.

 

Oh absolutely; nobody despairs more than me when folk think the Internet will provide all the answers, rather than doing some basic and enjoyable research. Thing is, if people keep providing answers, they'll just keep asking

[Ozexpatriate]

If one is serious about railway modelling it stands to sence one should study photographs of real trains in ones chosen area and period.

 

Oh absolutely; nobody despairs more than me when folk think the Internet will provide all the answers, rather than doing some basic and enjoyable research. Thing is, if people keep providing answers, they'll just keep asking

 

This observation interests me. Despite being interested in British railways, I don't live in the UK. I consequently don't have access to very specific reference books about railways. (It's hard to get a sense of what a book really contains in an on-line review compared with leafing through one in a shop. While specialty retailers are better, this is particularly the case with something like amazon.com - or amazon.co.uk if you prefer.)

 

There are times when I will ask for help in an on-line forum like this one. I don't expect people to do the research for me - but if they happen to know, and enjoy sharing what they know, I for one appreciate their largess of spirit.

 

Is it lazy, rude or selfish to ask for help? I think it's wrong to expect help, but I ask this question genuinely.

 

The Hornby forum is intentionally designed to take advantage of the generosity of those who are happy to share their knowledge - something I have very mixed feelings about.

 

Perhaps I'm unintentionally hijacking the Hawksworth coach thread here. Please let me know if this is a worthy question for the modelling musings page.

[Pennine MC]

Is it lazy, rude or selfish to ask for help?

 

 

Not in itself Oz, but it's usualIy easier to help folk who are prepared to help themselves; to provide specific knowledge to build on their own groundwork. I see questions every day on here where the OP hasnt even done the most basic Googling; at the time, I thought this was quite a spectacular example

 

Perhaps I'm unintentionally hijacking the Hawksworth coach thread here. Please let me know if this is a worthy question for the modelling musings page.

 

If you are (hijacking), you're no worse than me. But yes, it might make a good discussion, we havent had a good 'introversive' for a while

[The Stationmaster]

 

There are times when I will ask for help in an on-line forum like this one. I don't expect people to do the research for me - but if they happen to know, and enjoy sharing what they know, I for one appreciate their largess of spirit.

 

Is it lazy, rude or selfish to ask for help? I think it's wrong to expect help, but I ask this question genuinely.

 

 

 

Not at all rude to ask for help and I'm always happy to help where I can if the question hasn't already been fully answered.

 

But taking up Pennine's point I do wish folk would at least try Google first, if nothing else. I recall one recent question which I immediately decided to Google - and got an answer (which was not on Wikiwrongdia but quite genuine and complete) on the first page, why couldn't the inquirer have done that for himself?

 

(sorry Mr Hawksworth).

[Ozexpatriate]

Is it lazy, rude or selfish to ask for help?

 

Perhaps I'm unintentionally hijacking the Hawksworth coach thread here. Please let me know if this is a worthy question for the modelling musings page.

 

If you are (hijacking), you're no worse than me. But yes, it might make a good discussion, we havent had a good 'introversive' for a while

 

(sorry Mr Hawksworth).

 

I'm done hijacking. There is a new modelling musing thread on this topic.

[robmcg]

A strengthener if anything on the end rather than in the middle of the rake. Its normally only catering vehicles you see in the middle of a mk1 rake because BR didn't build much of those types until late into the program and even the WR namers kept old stock into about '61.

 

 

For those curious about the model appearance match between a Hawksworth and BR Mk1 I today unpacked 'Great Western' and a single maroon corridor 3rd Hawksworth and ran it at the head of a train of Mk1s.... looks great, with either Bachmann or Hornby Mk1s.

The loco was the usual drama to unpack, loose coal inserts, dubious fall-plate, fiddly connector, but runs well, one corridor connector on the new Hawksworth fell off when released from insert, but clipped back in nicely..

 

 

 

Rob

[JZ]

I am quite happy with mine. Yes, the curtains are a bit too prominent, but I can live with that. I will be going for a full set in maroon , plus a 3rd and compo' in b/c. The BG will go into a parcels train, leaving me a 6 coach rake. I have yet to find a photo in my archive that show a train made up of just Hawksworth's, but I often make up rakes that look good rather than being correct.

[dibber25]

I have yet to find a photo in my archive that show a train made up of just Hawksworth's, (quote)

 

I doubt that you will. I've seen shots of the Cornish Riviera in late 1940s, early 1950s, showing an apparently uniform rake of blood and custard Hawksworths but even this must have had an old restaurant car because there were no Hawksworth refreshment vehicles. Certainly, when the CRE was turned over to chocolate & cream Mk1s, a Collett-era restaurant car was painted to match - and very few ex-GW vehicles received BR chocolate cream, apart from a few restaurant cars.

CHRIS LEIGH