Question on BR black livery for non-steam locos

[Steamport Southport]

4 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

But the question "Did any of these ever get yellow ends while still in black livery?" will only warrant an answer if we determine a full list of "Classes that carried BR black (non-steam)" in the first place.

 

Not really. That's just wasting time. The "What locos were black" has been done dozens of times on this forum. Probably done to death.

 

You just look at the ones that you know survived late enough in black to carry the yellow panel. Otherwise you are spending time looking down dead ends.

 

It's like asking "What ex LNWR locos carried electrification warning flashes".  It's a waste of time going through every LNWR locomotive as many of them were gone well before the flashes were introduced.

 

 

Jason

[Nearholmer]

So, did any LNWR locos get yellow ends and electrification flashes? 

[Michael Edge]

As far as I know all the EM1s were green before any yellow was applied to them, certainly all the EM2s were lined green. At least three EM2s got electric blue livery, 27001/2 and 27004. 27001 and 27004 initially without yellow panels. 

Some early shunters had experimental warning stripes added, 15100 was one of these but as far as I know all these were done in white, not yellow.

[Nearholmer]

Just remembered ZM32. I think that was black and yellow from new in 1957, but I’m not totally certain.

 

 

[Hal Nail]

53 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

So, did any LNWR locos get yellow ends and electrification flashes? 

Almost certainly yes but only if they were diagrammed to work regularly with blue grey stock.

[Zomboid]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

So, did any LNWR locos get yellow ends and electrification flashes? 

Presumably the AM1s (which were originally LNWR units) may have, being overhead AC units and lasting until 1966.

[Nearholmer]

Brilliant suggestion, although I can only find pictures with either or, not both.

[Wickham Green too]

7 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Not really. That's just wasting time. The "What locos were black" has been done dozens of times on this forum. Probably done to death.

 

You just look at the ones that you know survived late enough in black to carry the yellow panel. Otherwise you are spending time looking down dead ends. ......

Without the complete picture in one thread, it's like asking which black locos with yellow ends were black with yellow ends ......... and I think we all knew the answer to that one from day one.

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, I offer : - 

Black - Yep!

Yellow Ends - Yep!

LNWR - Yep !

Electrification Flashes - Yep !

And there was probably blue grey stock somewhere in the vicinity of Basford Hall 22/8/87 !

[russ p]

10 hours ago, The Johnster said:

TTBOMK the EM1s were avaialble in 3 pre-1966 liveries, plain black freight livery for those without any automatic train brake equipment, lined black mixed traffic for those with vacuum brakes, and lined green express passenger for those with vacuum brakes and steam heating.  This doesn't help with the yellow warning panel question of course.   Pre-'66 EM2s all had vacuum brakes and steam heating, and thus lined green express passenger livery, except for Ariadne (?) in experimental blue with syp.  I believe this blue was the same shade as that used experimentally on a Brush Type 2.

 

I'm not sure any EM1s had no train brakes . Was it only one EM2 that got blue did no EM1s get it. Was the blue different to electric blue

[Michael Edge]

I'm not sure about all of them but I have photos of 27001 and 27004 in plain electric blue/primrose roof, also E27002 in the same livery with a yellow panel. From memory it was the same colour as the original AC locos but it faded very quickly - and colour looks different depending on what it's seen next to, primrose roof on the EM2s, white window surrounds on the AC locos for example.

All the EM1s had vacuum train brakes, air brake fitting came much later, by which time most of them were in BR blue.

[MidlandRed]

26 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

I'm not sure about all of them but I have photos of 27001 and 27004 in plain electric blue/primrose roof, also E27002 in the same livery with a yellow panel. From memory it was the same colour as the original AC locos but it faded very quickly - and colour looks different depending on what it's seen next to, primrose roof on the EM2s, white window surrounds on the AC locos for example.

All the EM1s had vacuum train brakes, air brake fitting came much later, by which time most of them were in BR blue.

Im pretty sure the Crewe repaints from 1965/1966 on of the Woodhead electrics were rail blue with syp and BR second logo (totem), until fye and new BR logo from the end of 1966/early 1967. Those EM2s in blue without yellow panel must have pre-dated rail blue, which seems to have been applied to all the AL6s when built (and the first seven or so of each batch started with red buffer beams, and for a very short time, no yellow panels). 

 

Also the usual issue of colour film colour distortion and degradation over time doesn’t help in identification!! 
 

As far as BR black v blue/grey mk1s is concerned, E2001 was stored at Rugby when the full WCML London/Birmingham/Stoke/Crewe/ Liverpool/Manchester electrification services commenced in 1967 and the majority, if not all passenger trains were blue/grey mk2 stock but with blue/grey mk1 catering vehicles - all of the AL6 and AM10 units were in rail blue also (along with a growing number of repaints of earlier stock). 

Edited October 27, 2021 by MidlandRed

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Just remembered ZM32. I think that was black and yellow from new in 1957, but I’m not totally certain.

 

 

Given that it crosses other (Standard gauge?) tracks at right angles, having the wasp sides was probably more important than the wasp ends.  I don't see that being offered RTR any time soon though.

 

The wagons it is pulling are unusual, as narrow gauge tipplers mostly tip sideways.  If you use end tipping you can only empty one then you have to shunt it out of the way before emptying another.  

[Nearholmer]

You can get a beautiful 1:43 kit of it; I built one of them c25 years ago.

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

.... The wagons it is pulling are unusual, as narrow gauge tipplers mostly tip sideways.  If you use end tipping you can only empty one then you have to shunt it out of the way before emptying another.  

Looks to me like the hoppers might be on a turntable to tip wherever you want.

[PenrithBeacon]

5 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

Im pretty sure the Crewe repaints from 1965/1966 on of the Woodhead electrics were rail blue with syp and BR second logo (totem), until fye and new BR logo from the end of 1966/early 1967. Those EM2s in blue without yellow panel must have pre-dated rail blue, which seems to have been applied to all the AL6s when built (and the first seven or so of each batch started with red buffer beams, and for a very short time, no yellow panels). 

...

Before Electric Blue the BR standard colour for electric locos was Garter Blue and there is a letter on file at TNA from Riddles to Bullied from 1949 which says that this was the intention.

I have seen photos of the blue EM2 without the yellow panel and I think it's in Garter Blue not Electric Blue or Rail Blue. If this is so, then it is the only loco that was painted in Garter Blue before the 1960s livery changes.

[Halvarras]

21 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

After 10800 was morphed into Hawk, it was green, with a small yellow panel, but I count it as a different loco after the transformation.

 

10800 was painted from black early crest into BR standard plain green late crest by Derby in 1961 before being transferred to Brush at Loughborough where it had a Maybach MD655 power unit installed (a spare from Falcon, of no use in a Western) for ac traction experiments and was repainted again into Sherwood Green with small yellow panels. (KR Models beware, it received significant visible modifications.......)

 

D3052 at Willesden still black with early crests, large numbers with small D's and wasp stripes in 1973 was famous at the time and was the subject of a Model Rail special edition by Bachmann. It was due to become 08039 but never did. However D3170 in similar condition at Carlisle Kingmoor did become 08105 - the only photo I've ever seen (in the Ian Allan 1975 combo) appears to show the new number applied over a band of green. I wonder if anyone ever took a colour photo of this oddity....?

 

No Class 03s in black, although D2000-24 were allocated 11187-11211 in the steam series - never carried of course, although I did once suggest to the driver of 2022 (in 'GWR lined green' livery with cast plates.......no, that was strictly preservation-only too ) during an impromptu cab ride on the Swindon & Cricklade Railway in 2008 that perhaps at its next repaint it could go BR black as 11209......sadly they didn't take up the idea!

[Michael Edge]

39 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Before Electric Blue the BR standard colour for electric locos was Garter Blue and there is a letter on file at TNA from Riddles to Bullied from 1949 which says that this was the intention.

I have seen photos of the blue EM2 without the yellow panel and I think it's in Garter Blue not Electric Blue or Rail Blue. If this is so, then it is the only loco that was painted in Garter Blue before the 1960s livery changes.

All the existing BR electric and diesel locos were painted black in the early days, green and blue were only for steam locos. The blue EM2s (definitely more than one as I have said above) were painted like this after the new AC locos appeared in electric blue in 1960. In 1949 there was only one true express passenger loco in BR stock, the NER EE1 ex No13 - and this was never repainted from its LNER lined green.

[Michael Edge]

27006 also appears to have got blue livery, although I only have a b/w photo no lining is visible and the roof looks like primrose.

[Nearholmer]

One of the Bulleid-Raworth ‘Hornby’ locos was painted blue as part of the livery experiments, which is possibly how the correspondence mentioned by Penrith arose, but I guess we aren’t talking about the experimental period here. Another was painted green with British Railways in full text, presumably as a continuation of SR livery until something else emerged.

 

I don’t think the BR livery edict (issued in 1949) actually mentioned electric locos, so presumably they were dealt with by analogy with diesel locos (black) or EMUs (green), rather than there actually being a standard livery in the early years.

 

 

Edited October 27, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Wickham Green too]

On 27/10/2021 at 16:13, Nearholmer said:

One of the Bulleid-Raworth ‘Hornby’ locos was painted blue as part of the livery experiments, ......

sCC2 was painted ultramarine blue in January 1948 ..... which it retained 'til gaining standard black'n'silver in May 1950 - by which time it was 20002.

 

( Apologies to Simon - yes, these details are from his excellent book. )

Edited November 1, 2021 by Wickham Green too

[MarkC]

ISTR that the 4x 02s which were used in the North Liverpool docks area had wasp stripes. (Used to see them when running between Sandhills & Liverpool Exchange).

[Michael Edge]

Yes but they were delivered in green, never black.

[slilley]

On 27/10/2021 at 16:13, Nearholmer said:

One of the Bulleid-Raworth ‘Hornby’ locos was painted blue as part of the livery experiments, which is possibly how the correspondence mentioned by Penrith arose, but I guess we aren’t talking about the experimental period here. Another was painted green with British Railways in full text, presumably as a continuation of SR livery until something else emerged.

 

I don’t think the BR livery edict (issued in 1949) actually mentioned electric locos, so presumably they were dealt with by analogy with diesel locos (black) or EMUs (green), rather than there actually being a standard livery in the early years.

 

 

The liveries of the three Booster locos are dealt with in detail in my book on them, Southern way Special No 11. CC2 was repainted blue in early 1948 as part of various livery experiments that were undertaken soon after nationalisation. No 20003 was completed in SR malachite green with yellow lining and BRITISH RAILWAYS on the sides until a unified livery was agreed. Railway Executive minute No 1849 from 17 Jan 1949 determined that electric locomotives used for mainline passenger work should be painted blue, with mixed traffic ones painted black. The memo gave the numbers of locomotives to be painted in each style with three the number of electric locos to be painted blue. Clearly the early intention was they should be that colour.  However when 20003 became due for repainting in March 1950 the Railway Executive determined they were mixed-traffic locomotives and so should be black, which is what all three were painted. By June all three were the same colour for the first time.

 

Simon

 

[Nearholmer]

Simon

Many thanks. I would have referred to your book if I’d not buried it in the back of my cupboard.

 

One thing I really appreciate about your book is that you didn’t fight shy of including some properly technical content, which so many railway authors do. As an engineer, I tend to doze-off a bit when authors go into the fine detail of when lamp-irons were moved about, but then dismiss the entire engineering content in half a paragraph.

 

Thank you again, Kevin

 

 

[Michael Edge]

48 minutes ago, slilley said:

The liveries of the three Booster locos are dealt with in detail in my book on them, Southern way Special No 11. CC2 was repainted blue in early 1948 as part of various livery experiments that were undertaken soon after nationalisation. No 20003 was completed in SR malachite green with yellow lining and BRITISH RAILWAYS on the sides until a unified livery was agreed. Railway Executive minute No 1849 from 17 Jan 1949 determined that electric locomotives used for mainline passenger work should be painted blue, with mixed traffic ones painted black. The memo gave the numbers of locomotives to be painted in each style with three the number of electric locos to be painted blue. Clearly the early intention was they should be that colour.  However when 20003 became due for repainting in March 1950 the Railway Executive determined they were mixed-traffic locomotives and so should be black, which is what all three were painted. By June all three were the same colour for the first time.

 

Simon

 

So presumably if 26600 had been repainted it could well have looked like this - as the only electric express loco in stock then.