Putting sound into locomotives on a DC layout. Total beginner after some advice.

[SouthernBlue80s]

I have been modeling for 10 years or so now and this is an area I know nothing about. So I would appreciate some advice.

 

I have a DC layout, and a fleet of locos I have spent hours weathering and detailing, so I want to keep them.

 

I would like to get some sound into some of them, all of them?

 

An overview of the fleet. Just to give you an idea. 

 

Bachmann

Class 25

Class 37 x2

Class 45

Class 47

Class 40

 

Hornby

Class 08

Class 31x2

Class 56 x2

Class 50

 

Heljan 

Class 33x2

Class 47x4

 

Dapol

Class 73

 

Most of them are DCC ready, The Bachmann 25 and the Heljan 47s I assume are not.

 

1. I have seen that you can run Bachmann sound fitted models on a DC layout. Does this only apply to Bachmann? Can you do this with Hornby or Heljan? Or with those brands  would I have to run a DCC set up, which I want to probably avoid.

 

2. For each loco what would I need to fit? (Assuming  it is DCC ready) A DCC decoder, a sound card, a speaker?

 

I have a soldering iron and am pretty good at fiddling with stuff. But my knowledge of electronics is very sketchy.

 

3. Can you buy the above as a package?

So it easier to fit.

Or am I best of buying it separately?

And what is the loose ball park price range to convert a loco?

 

Thanks. As you can see I am totally new to this aspect of it all

 

Steve.

 

 

 

[woodenhead]

Others will know the specifics, but essentially sound = chips/speakers fitted to your loco.

 

In DC the loco will still need to be chipped but then programmed to also work on DC which is how the Bachmann & Farish locos work sound on DCC - the chip controls the DC supply to the loco so that you can keep the controller sending enough power to make the sound work without it being enough to engage any motion.

 

For me in N gauge I was typically paying £105 per loco for a sound chip loaded with a sound file and then on top of that there is the cost of the speaker, the cost of which depends how good you want your solution to be.  Wiring in 00 will be easier than N gauge and OO has been more amenable to chipping be it straight wiring or pins for a long time, only really some of the earlier split chassis stuff that causes a challenge.

[SouthernBlue80s]

Thanks for the replies.

 

My layouts are not big so would not benefit greatly from the other aspects of DCC operation.

 

Given I now have an idea of the expense, as Richard points out it would make sense to just take the plunge and go DCC.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by SouthernBlue80s

[pauliebanger]

When starting from scratch with DC locos, the usual and most convenient way is to fit a sound decoder. This provides for motor and function (e.g.lighting) control plus the sound in one self contained package.

 

The least expensive sound decoder option is Hornby TTS, generally regarded as good sounds for diesel locos (potential sound problems with Steam, but not for your stable). Not the finest motor control available, but satisfactory results are possible. (This will  depend upon what you consider to be an acceptable standard. The available range of sounds does not currently cover all the models in your list.

 

There is no upgrade path with TTS, it is what it is when you buy it and remains so for as long as it lasts.

 

Cost of TTS with speaker is in the order of £40. 

 

Unfortunately, TTS will not operate as a sound decoder on DC analogue.

 

There is a small range of, mainly steam, UK sound projects on D&H decoders from Locoman.  Cost around £95.  These can be reprogrammed with new sounds (using the correct equipment).

 

The two fully updateable sound decoder brands with comprehesive ranges of most loco types are ESU Loksound and ZIMO. These, with your choice of loco sound, will cost between £99 and £125 depending on the brand chosen and in some cases the sound project loaded.

 

These can be configured to operate with sound on DC analogue (normally the default setting). The decoder can identify the power source type (DC or DCC) and reacts accordingly. With no separate function buttons of a typical DC controller, you will not have access to manually controlled functions (lights, manual working brakes) or sounds (Horns, coupling, vocals etc) but all automatic sounds and any randomly generated sounds within the sound project will play in the same way as on DCC.

 

With ZIMO decoders, if you fit a Stay Alive capacitor pack it will also operate on DC analogue - other brands specifically exclude this option according to their operating manuals/technical advice. Whether stay alive pack for more reliable running is important to you, only you can decide. Most of your models should operate without them if (along with your trackwork) they are properly cleaned and maintained.

 

However, I suggest you consider in more detail the options which open up with DCC over DC if you specifically intend to run sound fitted models.

 

Sound on DC is OK if you add one or two sound fitted locos to run alongside your non-sound DC models, but it's not ideal if you intend to have a large fleet of sound equipped locos in my view. That's entirely your decision, of course.

 

If you hold fast to DC analogue, you will be paying a lot of money to equip all your models with sound, yet not gaining all the control features which would be available on DCC.

 

If your layout is properly wired for DC it will operate on DCC too, with little or no modification. (that's generalised - there's no point in getting into pedantic mode at this stage of your decision making).

 

An upgradable DCC system can be bought new for less than £200, and is normally a one-off purchase to opertae all your models now and in the future. This is modest in comparison with the overall costs to sound fit your entire fleet.

 

Of course, DCC would open the door for TTS sound, which would considerably reduce your overall costs to equip your current fleet, with reduced costs over the 'full fat' ESU and ZIMO offerings for subsequent purchases.

 

There's no need to rush to a decision so get as much info as possible. Have you considered the alternative ways of adding some sound to DC analogue which does not require a DCC decoder?

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

[SouthernBlue80s]

3 minutes ago, pauliebanger said:

When starting from scratch with DC locos, the usual and most convenient way is to fit a sound decoder. This provides for motor and function (e.g.lighting) control plus the sound in one self contained package.

 

The least expensive sound decoder option is Hornby TTS, generally regarded as good sounds for diesel locos (potential sound problems with Steam, but not for your stable). Not the finest motor control available, but satisfactory results are possible. (This will  depend upon what you consider to be an acceptable standard. The available range of sounds does not currently cover all the models in your list.

 

There is no upgrade path with TTS, it is what it is when you buy it and remains so for as long as it lasts.

 

Cost of TTS with speaker is in the order of £40. 

 

Unfortunately, TTS will not operate as a sound decoder on DC analogue.

 

There is a small range of, mainly steam, UK sound projects on D&H decoders from Locoman.  Cost around £95.  These can be reprogrammed with new sounds (using the correct equipment).

 

The two fully updateable sound decoder brands with comprehesive ranges of most loco types are ESU Loksound and ZIMO. These, with your choice of loco sound, will cost between £99 and £125 depending on the brand chosen and in some cases the sound project loaded.

 

These can be configured to operate with sound on DC analogue (normally the default setting). The decoder can identify the power source type (DC or DCC) and reacts accordingly. With no separate function buttons of a typical DC controller, you will not have access to manually controlled functions (lights, manual working brakes) or sounds (Horns, coupling, vocals etc) but all automatic sounds and any randomly generated sounds within the sound project will play in the same way as on DCC.

 

With ZIMO decoders, if you fit a Stay Alive capacitor pack it will also operate on DC analogue - other brands specifically exclude this option according to their operating manuals/technical advice. Whether stay alive pack for more reliable running is important to you, only you can decide. Most of your models should operate without them if (along with your trackwork) they are properly cleaned and maintained.

 

However, I suggest you consider in more detail the options which open up with DCC over DC if you specifically intend to run sound fitted models.

 

Sound on DC is OK if you add one or two sound fitted locos to run alongside your non-sound DC models, but it's not ideal if you intend to have a large fleet of sound equipped locos in my view. That's entirely your decision, of course.

 

If you hold fast to DC analogue, you will be paying a lot of money to equip all your models with sound, yet not gaining all the control features which would be available on DCC.

 

If your layout is properly wired for DC it will operate on DCC too, with little or no modification. (that's generalised - there's no point in getting into pedantic mode at this stage of your decision making).

 

An upgradable DCC system can be bought new for less than £200, and is normally a one-off purchase to opertae all your models now and in the future. This is modest in comparison with the overall costs to sound fit your entire fleet.

 

Of course, DCC would open the door for TTS sound, which would considerably reduce your overall costs to equip your current fleet, with reduced costs over the 'full fat' ESU and ZIMO offerings for subsequent purchases.

 

There's no need to rush to a decision so get as much info as possible. Have you considered the alternative ways of adding some sound to DC analogue which does not require a DCC decoder?

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

 

Thank you Paul for taking the time to write that detailed response. Food for thought.

 

May you give me a little info on the alternative options for fitting sound that do not require a DCC decoder.

 

Thanks

Steve

[pauliebanger]

1 minute ago, SouthernBlue80s said:

 

Thank you Paul for taking the time to write that detailed response. Food for thought.

 

May you give me a little info on the alternative options for fitting sound that do not require a DCC decoder.

 

Thanks

Steve

 

Hi Steve,

 

That's me in a difficult position. LOL.

 

I'm a committed ZIMO sound decoder user (and sound project provider). I've tested many alternative solutions, none of which have been able to persuade me to change.

 

In view of personal experience, I cannot endorse any of them. Your opinion may well differ - that's fine by me.

 

There are a number of 'layout' based sound systems from the primitive 'sound in a box' type systems to ultra complex like the loco tracking sound system within JMRI (free software, most know it for Decoder Pro).

 

There are some on-board solutions such as MyLoco Sound https://mylocosound.com/ and Train-Tech http://train-tech.com/   which might fit your needs

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, SouthernBlue80s said:

Thanks for the replies.

 

My layouts are not big so would not benefit greatly from the other aspects of DCC operation.

 

Given I now have an idea of the expense, as Richard points out it would make sense to just take the plunge and go DCC.

There are benefits to using DCC on almost any layout IMO (although I don't want to sound like I'm saying "therefore everyone should use it"). Simpler wiring (no need to isolate separate sections most of the time) - not much help for an already-built layout of course, and being able to operate more than one loco on the same bit of powered track, which may be handy for shunting even a small layout.

[brossard]

1 hour ago, Reorte said:

There are benefits to using DCC on almost any layout IMO (although I don't want to sound like I'm saying "therefore everyone should use it"). Simpler wiring (no need to isolate separate sections most of the time) - not much help for an already-built layout of course, and being able to operate more than one loco on the same bit of powered track, which may be handy for shunting even a small layout.

 

I think there are huge benefits to DCC for any layout.  My first layout was DC but when I got to playing, it was so annoying (having to switch blocks on and often forgetting to do so).  It wasn't long before I had my DCC system.

 

A DC layout can be converted to DCC by throwing all the blocks to ON and applying your DCC system power to it.

 

The only potential wrinkle is whether turnouts are DCC ready, I think most RTP turnouts are not.  However, my knowledge of RTP turnouts is dated so I stand to be corrected.

 

Here's what I mean:

 

https://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm

 

I note that you have a great many locos and putting sound in each is going to cost a lot as has already mentioned.  To get you going, you could get yourself some non sound decoders which are much less expensive.  These are easy to fit in DCC ready locos.  The non sound locos would get you going with the DCC performance until you can start installing sound.  All my 7mm locos have sound and all but 1 have Zimo.

 

John

[Allegheny1600]

7 hours ago, SouthernBlue80s said:

I have been modeling for 10 years or so now and this is an area I know nothing about. So I would appreciate some advice.

 

I have a DC layout, and a fleet of locos I have spent hours weathering and detailing, so I want to keep them.

 

I would like to get some sound into some of them, all of them?

 

An overview of the fleet. Just to give you an idea. 

 

Bachmann

Class 25

Class 37 x2

Class 45

Class 47

Class 40

 

Hornby

Class 08

Class 31x2

Class 56 x2

Class 50

 

Heljan 

Class 33x2

Class 47x4

 

Dapol

Class 73

 

Most of them are DCC ready, The Bachmann 25 and the Heljan 47s I assume are not.

 

1. I have seen that you can run Bachmann sound fitted models on a DC layout. Does this only apply to Bachmann? Can you do this with Hornby or Heljan? Or with those brands  would I have to run a DCC set up, which I want to probably avoid.

 

2. For each loco what would I need to fit? (Assuming  it is DCC ready) A DCC decoder, a sound card, a speaker?

 

I have a soldering iron and am pretty good at fiddling with stuff. But my knowledge of electronics is very sketchy.

 

3. Can you buy the above as a package?

So it easier to fit.

Or am I best of buying it separately?

And what is the loose ball park price range to convert a loco?

 

Thanks. As you can see I am totally new to this aspect of it all

 

Steve.

 

 

 

Hi Steve,

 I had your dilemma several years ago!

 I thought that I’d get just one (American) loco with sound as I’d read it would work on DC. Then I got another.

Running them on DC, I learned that switching the direction knob rapidly back & forth activated various other of the loaded sounds. I even bought a little device that did this switching for you, saving wear and tear on the direction switch.

But gradually my fleet of sound equipped locos grew and I realised that I needed a digital controller.

That was nearly twenty years ago and I have honestly never looked back, it was a learning curve, I had to learn not to blow on solder joins to cool them for example but the effort is well worth it - in my opinion of course.

You get such an improvement in functions, lights can be controlled much better, slow speed running can be improved, wiring simplified and so forth. You do need to learn a more rigorous track cleaning routine however.

Cheers,

John

[SouthernBlue80s]

Thank you for all of your replies.

And Paul thank you for the links. I will look at them now.

 

Certainly lots to think about.

 

Steve

 

 

[Allegheny1600]

Just to add to my post above,

Not all of my fleet is currently fitted with sound.

Not all of my fleet is even fitted with a digital decoder.

Some of my fleet since I went digital, has been sold off, bought again and sold off again!

 I do keep an analogue controller for testing purposes, I can even set up an analog test track if I wish.

 I still have some favourite locos that can’t really be converted but I can still run them on the test track.

Twenty years in and I still have a ways to go - IF I were converting the whole fleet.

All I’m saying is that it isn’t necessary to convert your whole fleet in one go.

If you can afford to do so, then good on you but don’t worry about it if you can’t.

Cheers,

John

[bluestag]

Don't fear DCC.  I have just built a sizeable 7mm layout, and my locos are DCC controlled.    Only that and the sound are DCC.    I control the turnouts analog.    I don't want a complex electronic rig, but I also don't want blocks, and I do want sound.

 

So I have DCC.    I have a Digitrax Zepher, which supplies 3 amp.   It is a controller with a dial for speed and a switch for direction, plus a keypad to select locos and sound effects.    It is a lot like a conventional DC controller.  As long as all you are powering are locos and sound, that is more than adequate.   Here in the States some guys do lash together several diesels,  with two motors each, and then control the turouts digitally as well.    That can demand 10 amps, and boosters and other expensive and complicated electronics.    I avoid that.  If you want several controllers, if your layout is big enough to justify it, and you want to be able to control more than one loco at a time, you can get hand held controllers that will work with the Zepher, which continues to be the box that produces the digital signals.    Or you can do as I did: buy one or two "burner" cell phones.   I paid $65 each for two.   And a device from Digitrax that is a wifi hotspot.   It allows the phones to communicate with the Zepher.   There is a six conductor modular plugged cable that joins the wifi device and the Zepher.    This is as complicated as I care to get.    It is not that daunting.    The Zepher cost me about $250, and really is an all in one device.   I am sure that other manufactures of similar equipment exist, you would have to ask here on this topic for further details.

[Phil Bullock]

Ah welcome to the world of DCC. 
 

One of the most popular myths is wiring of points for DCC. Any ready to plonk point …. Be it live or insulfrog …. Will work as it is with both DC and DCC.  When I converted my DC garage layout to DCC I just did as had already been suggested and turned all section power feeds on, disconnected DC and plugged in DCC and off we went. Those of us who have used Peco over the years without modified wiring will tell of blade contact issues, particularly if you ballast and weather the track …. In DC as well as DCC

 

So perhaps wiring points for DCC should just read wiring points for reliability! DC would be much more reliable with rewired points and It’s certainly a fact that DCC sound will exacerbate point problems and may lead to frustration with locos stalling and then restarting ….

So you are right to think about the change ….. but come on in, with diesels in particular you are entering a new dimension.

 

 

 

[Pete the Elaner]

I've read most of the replies & cannot add much.

Equipping most of your locos with TTS & using DCC will be much cheaper than fitting Loksound/Zimo decoders to them & using DC, but DCC offers so much more: playing of horns, compressors, spirax valves etc.

 

TTS are more limited than the other brands so I won't use them myself:

Volume controls are very sketchy.

You can only play 1 'spot' sound at a time - the compressor will fade out & in to allow the horn to sound. Zimo & Loksound will play 4.

You can't sync the sound with wheel revs (not an issue with diesels).

Motor control is much better with the premium decoders.

Dynamic braking is available with Zimo/Loksound. Deceleration is set to 'coast' & you can brake using a button on the handset. This may not be to everyone's taste, but it works a lot better than anything I have seen on DC. TTS doesn't support it.

 

The one thing I can add is that all your locos will work with DCC. "DCC ready" means they have a socket so you can just remove the blanking plate & fit a decoder. With older locos, you need to do a little soldering to fit one, but it is not too difficult. Some of the earlier "DCC ready" locos don't actually have enough space for a decoder..only a blanking plate, which is much smaller, so this is a bit misleading.

The only locos which are a real pain are of the split chassis type, but I can only think of steam locos & small shunters which have this type of chassis. Your Hornby 08 will be fine.

 

[charliepetty]

I am assuming you have not fitted locos with sound before, so to help I have included this:

 

Bachmann

Class 25  (21Pin)  reasonably easy to fit.

Class 37 x2  (21Pin) reasonably easy to fit.

Class 45  (21Pin) reasonably easy to fit.

Class 47  (21Pin) reasonably easy to fit.

Class 40  (21Pin) reasonably easy to fit.

 

Hornby

Class 08  (8 Pin) Micro decoder makes it easier, very tight for speakers.

Class 31x2 (8 Pin)  Loads of room.

Class 56 x2  (8 Pin) Loads of room.

Class 50  (8 Pin)  reasonably easy

 

Heljan 

Class 33x2 (8 Pin) Little room in loco but fueltanks OK, fiddly.

Class 47x4 (8 Pin) Personally I would not bother due to high current draw!!

 

charlie@dckits.co.uk.  

See:  https://www.dckits-devideos.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=68

IF I was going to spend over £1000, I 'Would' buy a DCC Controller and get the full enjoyment from what DCC has to offer, honestly people dont know this satisfaction of 'playing' with DCC especially on a small layout, you can have fun with two yards of track !!!!!!

 

 

Charlie

 

 

[charliepetty]

More fun on a small layout:  Enjoy.....

 

 

[woodenhead]

@charliepetty all I see on the 59 video is this:

 

The others look fine

[charliepetty]

Its snowing quite heavy in Leeds but I don't thinks its that, just checked on RM Web, its working fine.

 

Charlie

[woodenhead]

12 minutes ago, charliepetty said:

Its snowing quite heavy in Leeds but I don't thinks its that, just checked on RM Web, its working fine.

 

Charlie

It's really wierd, the 37/9 and the 25 are fine, it's just the 59. 

 

Maybe it's my brain scrambling it on purpose - I am teetering at the moment over selling my current OO steam stuff and either doing a North American or Br Blue diesel layout with sound........

 

The 25 does sound good though Charlie, almost like I was stood a Manchester Victoria back in the day.

[MikeEK]

The Bachmann website says of its latest  Farish steam dcc locos with sound fitted eg 372-065SF Fowler tender:

 

'Analogue Users: Normal-load running sounds, acceleration steam chuff sounds and any other automatic and randomised sounds can be enjoyed when using this model on analogue control (DC) straight from the box!"

 

Is this actually the case and is it as easy as just 'taking it out of the box'?

[Nigelcliffe]

3 hours ago, MikeEK said:

The Bachmann website says of its latest  Farish steam dcc locos with sound fitted eg 372-065SF Fowler tender:

 

'Analogue Users: Normal-load running sounds, acceleration steam chuff sounds and any other automatic and randomised sounds can be enjoyed when using this model on analogue control (DC) straight from the box!"

 

Is this actually the case and is it as easy as just 'taking it out of the box'?

 

Up to a point, what they write on the box is accurate.   But it's "up to a point". 

 

1 - most DCC decoders will only "start" at about 5volts.  So, turn the knob from zero, and someway up the scale, the decoder will wake up.  Sound and movement will then start (as described on the box). 

 

2 - some (many?) DCC decoders then start with a bit of a lurch, because their lowest possible running speed on DC, connected to the "wake up" voltage  is actually "moderate speed".  

 

3 - as the speed knob is turned down, the speed will drop, and then the decoder will reach the voltage where it stops working, and things stop again. 

 

 

It works better on DC layouts where locos rarely stop, but run continuously.  

The experience is such that there is a strong chance of regretting the purchase, or decide to swap to DCC for decent control.  

 

 

There may be a better experience with the new Hornby bluetooth controlled sounds, but with those there appears to be conflicting advice about the power supplies for running them on a DC layout (I've not been following it in detail, so check very carefully),  and they won't fit in an N-gauge model (and Hornby don't make anything N-gauge, so have no obvious interest in making devices that small).   

 

 

Or there are layout-based sound systems, where the sound comes from the layout. 

 

 

 

- Nigel

[andyman7]

1 hour ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

Up to a point, what they write on the box is accurate.   But it's "up to a point". 

 

1 - most DCC decoders will only "start" at about 5volts.  So, turn the knob from zero, and someway up the scale, the decoder will wake up.  Sound and movement will then start (as described on the box). 

 

2 - some (many?) DCC decoders then start with a bit of a lurch, because their lowest possible running speed on DC, connected to the "wake up" voltage  is actually "moderate speed".  

 

3 - as the speed knob is turned down, the speed will drop, and then the decoder will reach the voltage where it stops working, and things stop again. 

 

 

It works better on DC layouts where locos rarely stop, but run continuously.  

The experience is such that there is a strong chance of regretting the purchase, or decide to swap to DCC for decent control.  

 

 

There may be a better experience with the new Hornby bluetooth controlled sounds, but with those there appears to be conflicting advice about the power supplies for running them on a DC layout (I've not been following it in detail, so check very carefully),  and they won't fit in an N-gauge model (and Hornby don't make anything N-gauge, so have no obvious interest in making devices that small).   

 

 

Or there are layout-based sound systems, where the sound comes from the layout. 

 

 

 

- Nigel

Certainly with the latest sound fitted Bachmann 00 D&E models, sound (and operation) on DC is pretty good. The higher starting voltage enable the lights to come on before movement, and I have founded no jerkiness on start up. I do have DCC so get the chance to run in both modes (I have too many early models to do away with DC running).