Engine sheds serving London termini

[whart57]

1 hour ago, 73080 said:

According to notes on the rear of some Jim Aston photos, the last day of scheduled steam working from London Cannon Street was 12 June 1959

34013 hauled 5.14pm departure

34004 hauled 5.44pm departure

That figures, Cannon Street was closed at weekends. Electric services on the Kent Coast line started on Monday 15 June 1959

[westerhamstation]

Track plan of Ewer Street. it really was a very cramped site. All the best Adrian.

Ps sorry the image is displaying the wrong way up

[62613]

11 hours ago, DY444 said:

Wrt to Cannon St; the report for the Lewisham 1957 accident states that the light engine for the 4:56pm to Ramsgate came from Stewarts Lane.

I thought it was the whole train, and it had to be propelled all the way to Cannon St.

[westerhamstation]

1 hour ago, Fat Controller said:

ISTR a 'Bazzing About' feature in 'Model Railways' a long time ago. A neighbour was based at the 'Bidonville' there during the Thameslink modernisation.

Hi, I have the Bazzing article in pdf format, which I could put on here if that is permitted, if some one or a mod could please advise me. All the best Adrian.

[andyman7]

On 06/12/2021 at 12:33, Fat Controller said:

Would Broad Street have been covered by Bow?

 

23 hours ago, 31A said:

 

Would it not have been almost entirely electric by then, with the exception of the few peak hour trains off the GN which would have been pulled by the same locos that ran the King's Cross suburban services.

Broad St No2 lines were electric but No1 were non-electrified and pre-WW2 covered the Poplar service which I assume was serviced from Bow Road depot. The No.1 lines were singled in 1966 and taken OOU completely in 1969. The peak hour GN service was operated by DMUs, Baby Deltics and Class 31s so I assume the locos were generally Finsbury Park ones.

[Nearholmer]

I think dates and particulars are important to understanding which sheds provided locos for the NLR-GN services, because both LMS and LNER locos were used, the ones that surprised me when I looked into the history a bit were Ex-GCR  A5 pacific tanks, some of which were shedded at Kings Cross.  To replace the NLR 4-4-0T, the LMS used Jinty tanks based I think still at Devons Road, pulling trains of 4W coaches.

 

Look at this for a bit of Victoriana post-grouping https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p656605607/h1FA106A9#h1fa106a9  (click through, there are several good photos).

 

And, here is the flashy face of modernity! https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=ueln9HVn&id=F997D5DAB6CDC2BAA5741EEE922081DDEB36215C&thid=OIP.ueln9HVnlutptJSisnTWIgHaEL&mediaurl=https%3A%2F%2Flive.staticflickr.com%2F5148%2F5692463717_dceafd769c_b.jpg&exph=578&expw=1024&q=jinty+broad+street&simid=607994080256030432&form=IRPRST&ck=5D7664F668D665FB1E7D1952D0369C7F&selectedindex=0&ajaxhist=0&ajaxserp=0&vt=0&sim=11&cdnurl=https%3A%2F%2Fth.bing.com%2Fth%2Fid%2FR.b9e967f4756796eb69b494a2b274d622%3Frik%3DXCE2692BIJLuHg%26pid%3DImgRaw%26r%3D0

 

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by Nearholmer

[33C]

On 06/12/2021 at 17:05, Marshall5 said:

Wouldn't Fenchurch St. services be served by Plaistow shed?

Ray.

Also Tilbury 33B and Shoeburyness 33C. Plaistow 33A.

[31A]

27 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

 

Broad St No2 lines were electric but No1 were non-electrified and pre-WW2 covered the Poplar service which I assume was serviced from Bow Road depot. The No.1 lines were singled in 1966 and taken OOU completely in 1969. The peak hour GN service was operated by DMUs, Baby Deltics and Class 31s so I assume the locos were generally Finsbury Park ones.

 

9 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I think dates and particulars are important to understanding which sheds provided locos for the NLR-GN services, because both LMS and LNER locos were used, the ones that surprised me when I looked into the history a bit were Ex-GCR  A5 pacific tanks, some of which were shedded at Kings Cross.  To replace the NLR 4-4-0T, the LMS used Jinty tanks based I think still at Devons Road, pulling trains of 4W coaches.

 

Look at this for a bit of Victoriana post-grouping https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p656605607/h1FA106A9#h1fa106a9

 

 

 

The services from Broad Street onto the GN were worked by the LMS (as successors to the North London Railway, using Jinties from Devons Road) until they were suspended at the outbreak of World War 2; restarted on a limited basis and then withdrawn altogether from October 1940 after damage caused by air raids.

 

They started again in July 1945, but now worked by the LNER using mainly N2s (from King's Cross and possibly Hornsey) and LNER coaches.  There was an A5 at King's Cross at some time in the 1950s, when 69814 came from Grantham for trials on the heavy ECS trains from King's Cross which other locos were having difficulty getting over Wood Green flyover; I suppose it might have worked to Broad Street on occasion.  The above from "East Coast from King's Cross" by Eric Neve and "Top Shed" by Peter Townend.

 

After dieselisation of the GN they were worked as Andyman7 says. 

[Nearholmer]

How did the ex-GCR tanks come into the picture, then?

 

This picture is said by the GCR Society to show a train from Broad Street, for instance http://www.gcrsociety.co.uk/L243.jpg Looks like ex-GNR stock too.

 

The LNER society records that six A5 were allocated to Kings Cross in the late-1920s, primarily for Hitchin and Baldock services.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by Nearholmer

[bike2steam]

Talking about Ewer Street, serving London Bridge/Cannon Street/Charing Cross, similarly the bigger London termini had their own 'stabling points' for 'turn-round' workings, even Euston had one on the west-side, but was mostly used by outer suburban steam locos like the LMS 2-6-4T's. I can remember seeing exLMS pacifics (from Camden/Willesden) at Broad Street, used on fitted freights from the neighbouring goods depot.   33C, although Shoeburyness was ( and still is) the other end of the Fenchurch Street line, Tilbury's main work was freight from the nearby docks, and a little further away, the oil refineries. Oh, and Bishopsgate became a goods depot not long after the opening of Liverpool Street station, all under the loco operation of Stratford. Phil - for Marylebone you can definitely delete Kentish Town, and add Willesden, but seeing as you ask for 1950, then keep it to just Neasden.

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by bike2steam

[31A]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

How did the ex-GCR tanks come into the picture, then?

 

This picture is said by the GCR Society to show a train from Broad Street, for instance http://www.gcrsociety.co.uk/L243.jpg Looks like ex-GNR stock too.

 

The LNER society records that six A5 were allocated to Kings Cross in the late-1920s, primarily for Hitchin and Baldock services.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know, but all I've read of the Broad St. - GN Line services is that the GN (LNER) didn't work trains from Broad Street but had an agreement with the North London Railway (LMS) for them to work them over GN metals with their own locos and stock, which they did until WW2, and then when they resumed after the War the LNER/BR(E) worked them.  Post War the range of destinations served from Broad Street was reduced and confined to the Main Line and Hertford loop as the "Northern Heights" lines to High Barnet etc. reached via Finsbury Park-Highgate had been taken over by LT (which never reopened that line, but that's another story).

 

The relevant RCTS "Green Book" does mention that four A5s (5129/67 and 5448/52) had been allocated to King's Cross by 1928.  5167  went back to Neasden in late 1928 and 5129 was exchanged for 5007 in 1929.  5448 went to Neasden in 1930, and 5007 and 5452 went to Hitchin in 1935 until they went to Bradford in 1937.  I didn't mention that because I didn't want to complicate things and deviate too far off the topic, as I believe the OP mentioned the 1950s.

 

The RCTS book says that the A5s were mainly used on services to Hitchin and Baldock, where their use obviated the tender first running that had happened when 4-4-0s were used.  The coaches in that picture do not look like an "Inner Suburban" train (which the Broad Street services were) as they were usually worked with block sets of either close coupled 4-wheelers or articulated bogie coaches.  The ex GN six wheelers in the picture do look more like an outer suburban train bound for somewhere like Hitchin or Baldock.

 

[PhilH]

I’m really enjoying reading the contributions to this thread, once again thank you. And to reiterate, 1950 was  an arbitrary date I picked, could have just as easily been 1930 or 1960, don’t worry about that, any info, any date is most welcome.

Edited December 8, 2021 by PhilH
Overload of just…esssses.

[Nearholmer]

7 minutes ago, 31A said:

The ex GN six wheelers in the picture do look more like an outer suburban train bound for somewhere like Hitchin or Baldock.

TBH, I was beginning to wonder myself of the photo might be mis-captioned. A pal has the detailed history of these GNR-NLR services, which I must borrow again.

[Right Away]

Ewer St; here’s a very grainy image of No 901 (in Malachite green) on the table from the 1947 Ian Allan booklet “The Book of the Schools Class”.

 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Right Away
Edited for spelling

[Oldddudders]

14 hours ago, 62613 said:

I thought it was the whole train, and it had to be propelled all the way to Cannon St.

Even if that were true, it would only have to be propelled from Blackfriars Carriage Roads. The loco would lead from Stew Lane via Canterbury Road and Loughborough Junctions, reversing on Blackfriars Bridge to set back round to Cannon. But I doubt that was the case. 

[Rugd1022]

A couple of shots of Stewarts Lane, strange to think that I now back a stone train into here (where the coal stage is in the first pic) usually once or twice a week....

 

 

[Compound2632]

20 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Moorgate had BR Steam services for many years, later replaced by DMUs from the Midland and GN lines via the Widened Lines.  

 

18 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The steam locos latterly working into Moorgate must have come from sheds like Kentish Town and Kings Cross, or their suburban opposites.

 

I posted a few days ago on Moorgate, which was the terminus for Midland, Great Northern, and Chatham services from the opening of the Widened Lines and the St Pancras / Kings Cross tunnels. From the layout of the station, it's clear that each company's engines worked turn-and-turn about backing onto each incoming train; the only locomotive facilities were a stub siding and water column for each company. I suppose there must have been light engine movements morning and evening to set the system up for the day:

One shouldn't overlook the goods and mineral traffic over the Widened Lines too. This has been discussed in another topic:

Also, when thinking about engine sheds serving London termini, one shouldn't overlook the locomotive servicing facilities provided at the throat of many termini, such as Cambridge Street at St Pancras - one or two turntables, water columns, and ash pits - enough to turn and service an engine that had come up from the country to work back home. 

 

The Midland had two London engine sheds: Kentish Town, for engines working passenger traffic at St Pancras, goods traffic at Somers Town, and the passenger traffic via the Widened lines; and Childs Hill, for engines working the mineral traffic into the marshalling yard there and onward via the North & South Western Junction for the South West, the Tottenham & Hampstead for the docks, and the Widened Lines for the South East. I presume the LNWR sheds at Camden and Willesden had a similar division of responsibilities? I don't think the smaller lines ran to such division of facilities?

[Nearholmer]

28 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I don't think the smaller lines ran to such division of facilities?

 

I'm not precisely (or even vaguely!) sure when Norwood Junction and Hither Green loco sheds first opened, but my surmise is that each dated from when those locations became established as "peripheral marshalling yards", and they were both goods loco sheds. Feltham too, come to think about it. So, all three of the southern companies had achieved "division of facilities", placing a loco shed at their peripheral yard, prior to grouping.

 

As a BTW, if we delve backwards in time, suburban engine sheds that closed quite early, either as a result of electrification or of concentration of facilities, start to emerge from the mist, places like Purley and west Croydon. These sheds "served the London termini" in the sense of providing locos for trains that operated in and out of those termini, but I guess arent really what the OP was driving at.

 

Rambling on: On the Met and District there also seem to have been a few "engine hutches" at odd places, because they had more steam locos than they knew what to do with, and space was very restricted. There seems to have been a two-loco "hutch" near Paddington (Praed Street), presumably overseen from Edgware Road Shed, for instance.

 

 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I'm not precisely (or even vaguely!) sure when Norwood Junction and Hither Green loco sheds first opened, but my surmise is that each dated from when those locations became established as "peripheral marshalling yards", and they were both goods loco sheds. Feltham too, come to think about it. So, all three of the southern companies had achieved "division of facilities", placing a loco shed at their peripheral yard, prior to grouping.

 

Hither Green not until Southern days - September 1933 I read - with Norwood Junction two years later. So, pretty late on in the scheme of things. 

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The steam locos latterly working into Moorgate must have come from sheds like Kentish Town and Kings Cross, or their suburban opposites.

 

The Met eliminated steam from its own and GWR passenger services over the Circle Lines in, IIRC, 1906/7, when the Camelback and BTH electric locos took over the non-EMU services and the Met’s own inner goods workings. The changeover locations were Bishop’s Road and I’m 99% sure Harrow (possibly Finchley Road for a short period). While the Met was using steam locos, those for inner services were shedded at Edgware Road, where there was also a carriage shed, and a very cramped overhaul workshop.

 

As noted above, GWR goods continued to us the Circle for part of its trip, steam hauled, and there was a variety of goods services, as well as the passenger ones, over The Widened Lines, rather than the Circle.

 

All a bit pre-BR though!

Not all pre-BR as the freight (meat trains) service to Smithfield continued into the 1960s and interestingly various Instructions refer to the use of diesel shunters to  work such trains although whether that ever happened I don't know.   The GWR service to Liverpool St (3 trains SX, 4 trains SO)/Aldgate (2 trains SX) ended on the outbreak of war in 1939.

 

(And as an advertising aside a copy of the July 1939 GWR Service Timetable  for these and other long lost workings - such as the Crystal Palace Loop - in the immediate London area will be offered for sale in RMweb Classifieds some time later this week   ).

[westerhamstation]

Spam Can Being turned at Ewer Street. All the best Adrian.

[Nearholmer]

10 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Hither Green not until Southern days - September 1933 I read - with Norwood Junction two years later. So, pretty late on in the scheme of things. 

 

Interesting.

 

We discussed the question of when NJ and HG yards really came into their own, and how goods trains to/from the north were handed-over before that, in the "cross London services" thread, and I still can't claim to have got that bit of the history of logistics nailed-down in my mind. The standard company histories tend to concentrate on passenger services, and in the case of several of the earlier ones locomotives, at the expense of boring (to the guys at the time) stuff like goods trains.

[Nick Holliday]

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Hither Green not until Southern days - September 1933 I read - with Norwood Junction two years later. So, pretty late on in the scheme of things. 

 

Interesting.

 

We discussed the question of when NJ and HG yards really came into their own, and how goods trains to/from the north were handed-over before that, in the "cross London services" thread, and I still can't claim to have got that bit of the history of logistics nailed-down in my mind. The standard company histories tend to concentrate on passenger services, and in the case of several of the earlier ones locomotives, at the expense of boring (to the guys at the time) stuff like goods trains.

I can't speak for HG, but Norwood Yard as a goods destination was developed from the 1870's onward.  It appears that West Croydon and New Cross supplied locos as required.  What is confusing is that the 1918 Goods Working Timetable only refers to Norwood Junction, with 14+ daily workings.  There is no mention in the workings or the timetables themselves as to light engine working from WC or N+, but there are a couple of similar workings assigned to Sutton and East Croydon, neither of which had their own loco shed. There is a suggestion that the opening of Norwood Junction depot saved £2,000 a year in light engine movements.

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Nick Holliday said:

I can't speak for HG

 

Midland goods trains were working via the Widened Lines to Hither Green Exchange Sidings in 1912 and after, according to a map produced by the company that I've linked to elsewhere recently [Midland Railway Study Centre Item 20628]. Midland Style gives an 1893-7 lamp code for this, so it evidently goes well back.

[Nearholmer]

I'm fairly sure that HG yard was developed between 1900 and 1910, and I had assumed (big mistake) that it had its own loco shed from the outset. Presumably (dangerous) SECR locos were supplied from Bricklayers Arms and/or worked up from the country and back down.