Why no 4EPB?

[Nconsistent]

I have a simple, if possibly naive, or previously aired question. Why has Bachmann never followed up their excellent 2EPB with a 4EPB, or ideally 1 or 2 trailing coach extension packs? I believe the 2EPB may have been a slow starter, but these days Bachmann is asking frankly monstrous prices for the same trains and second hand prices are still strong, so there is likely to be a solid base of potential customers willing to pay well for the extra coaches. Can anyone suggest what Bachmann's non-marketing logic is? And also, given the apparent ease with which small, niche producers can enter the market today, why doesn't someone else fill this obvious gap? I assume there won't be a copyright question if Bachmann has never actually produced them? Sorry. One question has turned into four, but I just don't get it.

[Phatbob]

I don't get it either!  If they tooled a centre coach they could produce a 4EPB and a 3H "thumper".  The existing 2H is of limited appeal being rare and used on only a few specific routes.  A 3H would be a far bigger seller, as they got all all over the SR and even on to the WR and into Wales.
Likewise, 4EPBs were far more numerous than 2EPBs.
 

[John M Upton]

In a nutshell, EMU's don't actually sell that well.  Especially when you consider that at todays prices, a four car EMU will probably weigh in at well over £350 if not more which many will baulk at.

 

You can cut and shut a 2EPB into a 4EBP but that requires about 3 x two cars to achieve and has been done but probably only because of the replacement body shells Bachmann issued when they cocked up one of the first batch to be released.

 

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by John M Upton

[cheesysmith]

Simple answer is cost Vs profit. The cost of a 4EPB, even using existing tooling, would limit the numbers sold. Against this, you have to consider how much that production slot cold make in profit making a new model. You also have to remember that Bachmann and Hornby are not manufacturers, more like distributors with a research function back to the factory in china. The savings of using existing tooling goes to the manufacturer in china, not this end of the supply chain. I have seen little or no savings in the RRP from using tooling that has already paid for itself. 

 

If you want a4EPB, look on the replica site. They even give you instructions how to cut and shut their bits into one. The bits they don`t have in stock could be obtained from the likes of southern pride for the under frame bits, and Hornby spares for the motor bogie side frames.

[Nconsistent]

It is a mystery. I saw an excellent cut and shut version on a layout at the Gillingham show and I have those 'wrong number' bodies and two 2EPBs, but I do not have the sawing, filling, glueing or painting skills to produce more than a passable dog's breakfast. I have a southern suburban layout and the 4EPB is the biggest missing item as you say, so maybe while I wouldn't stretch to a 4BEP or 4TC, I would probably stump up that sort of money for what I actually want/need.

[cheesysmith]

If you already have the bodies, that is 2 DMBS, you only need to get two replica suburban coaches to go between them. Working out the electrical couplings between coaches is more fun. Would not be perfect, but it would be passable. 

[Phatbob]

Replica MK1s and Bachmann Mk 1s don't match!  The body profiles are different, as is the exagerated rib effect on the roof which is supposed to emulate the beads of weld.  A "whole" 4EPB made from Replica's products looks well, but put them next to a Bachmann one and the differences are too obvious IMHO.  That's why I haven't bought any Bachmann 2Hs and lengthened them with a Replica TSO. 
Maybe one of the 3D print gurus on here could produce centre coach bodyshells that match the Bachmann ones?  Just a thought.

[Rich Papper]

I made a 3H using a Replica TSO in the middle of the Bachmann bits. A light sand of the roof ribs and a slight tweak to the way the body clips to the chassis and it can be done.

 

 

Very tempted by a 4EPB from Replica bits too. An idea in the 'one day' pile.

Rich

Edited December 14, 2021 by Rich Papper
Can't spell!

[Nconsistent]

I have examined the Replica possibilities, but I too was put off by the fact that the profile is not a perfect match for the Bachmann models. The 3D experts solution is very attractive, though they might be surprised by the sudden rush of orders. I think there is probably plenty of pent-up demand out there.

[NickL2008]

Im currently making a 3D using Replica parts, their chassis is easy enough to attach to the Replica chassis

 

NL

[pete_mcfarlane]

They'd need to retool a good part of the 2-EPB motor coaches to turn them in to 4-EPB ones - different roofs with no cabling, and different underframe gear (1957 rather than 1951 type). 

[Phatbob]

11 minutes ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

They'd need to retool a good part of the 2-EPB motor coaches to turn them in to 4-EPB ones - different roofs with no cabling, and different underframe gear (1957 rather than 1951 type). 

They have tools for a  4CEP and that has the required running gear doesn't it? 

 

[RFS]

2 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

They'd need to retool a good part of the 2-EPB motor coaches to turn them in to 4-EPB ones - different roofs with no cabling, and different underframe gear (1957 rather than 1951 type). 

 

Hasn't this already been done with the 2-HAP motor coach?

 

Also noticed on Hornby: A Model World, that in their museum they have the Bulleid 4-EPB. Wonder if that's for a reason?

Edited December 15, 2021 by RFS

[pete_mcfarlane]

59 minutes ago, RFS said:

 

Hasn't this already been done with the 2-HAP motor coach?

 

You're right. I'd not twigged that they'd done the later type of Mk1 HAP motor coach, which is the same as the 4-EPB (apart from the number of periscopes)

[Steamport Southport]

4 hours ago, RFS said:

 

Hasn't this already been done with the 2-HAP motor coach?

 

Also noticed on Hornby: A Model World, that in their museum they have the Bulleid 4-EPB. Wonder if that's for a reason?

 

I'm afraid the owners of the "museum" is Locomotives Storage Limited. Nothing to do with Hornby.

 

It's mostly storage of items that were originally in Coventry Electric Museum and a few items that LNWR Heritage/Royal Scot Trust doesn't have space for in Crewe.

 

 

Jason

[phil-b259]

4 hours ago, RFS said:

 

Also noticed on Hornby: A Model World, that in their museum they have the Bulleid 4-EPB. Wonder if that's for a reason?

 

Thats a 4SUB  built by the Southern Railway, not a British Railways built 4EPB!

 

https://sremg.org.uk/emu/class405.shtml

 

The 4SUBs could not work with any post 1950s design of EMU - but they could work with the earlier Southern Railway designed units like the 2BIL

 

The EPB page https://sremg.org.uk/emu/class415.shtml

[cheesysmith]

or check out the blood and custard site, they have extensive records of the third rail EMUs.

[cheesysmith]

Having just looked at the blood and custard site, it does raise questions on what Bachmann have made so far and what can be used in a mix and match to make other units. These can be answered by checking the models against the prototypes, but I have not done so.

 

The DEMU came in three batches. The first was like the 51 type EMU with roof lighting conduits. The second was like the 57 type without them. The third was like the 57 type, but with tapered cab windows, smaller headcode box and passenger windows with frames Vs the bonded windows of the earlier batches. The third batch also had a larger guards compartment.

 

The 2HAP came in four batches. They had the lot, different window, cabs, control gear, roof conduits, cab fronts, toilet windows and different bogies. They even had different rain strips, making each batch different, so making a model by simply just renumbering is not easy.

 

The 4EPB came in two batches. The first batch had the original cabs, frameless windows and plain bearings on the bogies, the second batch had the revised cabs with smaller route box and tapered cab windows. They also had the passenger windows with frames and roller bearings on the bogies. Then there is the fact each motor coach was different at each end, with only the A motor coach having the batteries and motor generator fitted (these were the even numbered ones).

 

Then there is the 2EPB. They were all 51 style control gear with roof conduits except one. Then there is the ex Tyneside ones that had a larger guards compartment and the smaller route box but the non tapered cab windows.

 

And just to point out, the 2EPB had guards compartment that was about 2.5" bigger than that on the 4EPB (less than 1mm in model form lol).

 

Summary. Why no 4EPB? It is not as easy as just reusing some existing models and some new coaches. And if you are making the centre cars you might as well make the motors cars at the same time correct.

[Andy Kirkham]

Just thought I'd ask how EPB is normally pronounced - is it "Eppub" or "Ee Pee Bee"?

[cheesysmith]

I always use the latter as they are in capitols and are the phonetic alphabet southern region abbreviations of the unit type (4 car Electro Pneumatic Brake).  Although the other SR units I usually pronounce as a word (VEP, CEP etc). 

[Nconsistent]

Thank you everyone for the comments and information. With all the variations revealed I am still left wondering if there isn't room for someone out there to produce a common 'Bachmann windows matching' non-driving trailer body shell with separate roof variations as an add-on component. No disrespect to Replica, but their windows don't match and their cab side window is oversize, I believe. 

[cheesysmith]

which window?

 

This is a 302, that uses the same cab with a different front end. Notice the different sized drivers and second man sized windows.

 

 

with thanks to sp railways on flickr.

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by cheesysmith
add thanks

[Nconsistent]

Oops, I did not realise the windows were different on either side.

[cheesysmith]

There is a box for the controls in the cab on the second man side forcing the use of the smaller window. There is no reason for it on the 302 and the 307, but they used the same jigs so ended up with the same windows. If you look at the photos, it was not just the EPB that had this, most SR EMUs had different sized windows.

[knitpick]

Picking up on PhatBob's comment and going slightly off topic, Bachmann make both the 2EPB and the 2H.  When the 3R "Tadpole" units were replaced and disbanded (OK, one 3R was kept working!), 3 of the 2EPB driving cabs were inserted into the middle 2H units to make the 3T units.  I did suggest that as they had the mouldings, it should not be too difficult for Bachmann to produce a 3T.  But apparently the intermediate couplings on the 2H are at a non-standard height and so the cab end coupling would not line up with the intermediate 2H coupling.  And that's ignoring any electrical connection issues within the (now 3 car) set.  Also some 2Hs were extended using redundant TSOs from withdrawn 4CEPs - and given the width discrepancies were (if I recall correctly) nick-named "slugs".  These were given a separate subclass (205/1) from the as built 3Hs (205/0).  Corridor connections were also created on the previously non-gangwayed 2H coaches.  I've produced a model of 205 205 by adding gangways to a 2H.  OK I've cheated by not altering the seating.  But don't tell anyone.  The gangways were bought as spares.