Dapol ‘00’ 14xx

[LittleWesternModelRailway]

Hey friends,

 

So given the amount and type of 14xx’s in 4mm (DJM, Hornby, Airfix and Dapol) from what I see. And the rarity and price when available for the DJM.

 

Anyone have experience with the Dapol model? Is it comparable to or better/worse than the Airfix and/or Hornby models? 
 

Thanks

[Butler Henderson]

The Dapol model is the Airfix /  Hornby model - the tooling passed to Dapol who gave the model a new chasis and then sold the tooling to Hornby who may have may made some tweaks to the chassis.

[LittleWesternModelRailway]

15 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

The Dapol model is the Airfix /  Hornby model - the tooling passed to Dapol who gave the model a new chasis and then sold the tooling to Hornby who may have may made some tweaks to the chassis.

Good to know, thanks. I might grab one of the general online bidding place.

[Steamport Southport]

Airfix and then Mainline. Dapol inherited when they bought the rights to the Airfix model railway range.

 

I doubt they did anything with it mechanically. One of mine came in the same packaging that Airfix sold them in with a Dapol box.

 

I think they may have changed the number at one point as Airfix only did 1466 whether GWR or BR. That's how you can tell whether they are Airfix, look at the number. The other clue it's Airfix is the unpainted handrails.

 

http://www.airfixrailways.co.uk/042.htm

 

These are the Mainline ones, can't remember the numbers. But they were changed. They got painted handrails at this point and Mainline type couplings.

 

http://www.mainlinerailways.org.uk/14XX.htm

 

 

 

Jason

Edited January 7, 2022 by Steamport Southport

[Butler Henderson]

The Airfix models had plunger pick ups which Dapol dispensed when they provided a new chassis in 1995. Although two versions were listed by Mainline (1403 in GWR Green, 1442 in BR Black) neither were made; probably because of the need to do something over the pick up system or the fact stacks of Airfix models (1466 in GW Green and 1466 in BR lined Green) were still sat on shelves and which subsequetly became catalogued by Dapol as D19 and D20, Hornby after acquiring the toolings in 1996 "solved its running problems".

 

Source: Ramsays British Modl Trains Catalogue.

[adb968008]

My opinion is go with an older Hornby one (R2xxx series).

 

The Dapol design was unmodified from Airfix days.

The pickups were very bad, the plungers were known to get gunked up and stuck.

 

Hornby modified them to improve the pickups, a new motor and springing… though imo the ones made before 2017 were better. 

I did a mechanical review of Airfix / Hornby and into the issues of R3578 + here..

 

Funny thing how it goes full circle, the Dapol 61xx seems to have inherited the axlebox issue that Hornby had on its latter 14xx release.

Edited January 7, 2022 by adb968008

[meatloaf]

Im wondering if Dapol may do a new 14xx in 00 based on the excellent 0 Gauge one they have done. 

[Butler Henderson]

10 hours ago, adb968008 said:

The Dapol design was unmodified from Airfix days.

The pickups were very bad, the plungers were known to get gunked up and stuck.

 

Hornby modified them to improve the pickups, a new motor and springing… though imo the ones made before 2017 were better. 

 

Dapol definately changed it - after they sold the toolings to Hornby they spent years trying to flog off the spare chassis's they had, Dapol at the time had a practice of making vast numbers of a body tooling or a chassis on the basis that they would then do the rest of the model at a future date. They most defiantely had wiper pick ups not sprung plungers. Those chassis were produced in 1995 only a year before being sold to Hornby, Dapol had enough chassis and body parts to assemble subsequently 1200 of GW 4803 in 1999 and 100 BR  100 black 1401 Titfield Thunderbolts in 2002.

[The Johnster]

IBIACIS that the current Hornby body tooling is in fact the original Airfix, though the failure of the Airfix chassis with sprung plunger pickups has resulted in various new chassis over the years, of varying effectiveness.  Reliable 0-4-2 chassis are not the easiest to produce, as balancing them requires very precise weight distribution.  The DJM attempted to get around this with all wheels driven by gears, again requiring precision, this time in ensuring that the gear ratios for two different sizes of wheels are correct, and requiring cosmetic, non functioning, coupling rods to avoid stiffness.  Like the little girl and she had a little curl, right in the middle of her forehead, when they were good they were very very good, but when they were bad...

 

A 14xx to current RTR standards that was consistent in performance and incorporated full cab detail would be a no-brainer; DJM came closest but could not achieve consistency, then DJ went to China and the rest is history.  The original Airfix ran very well once you'd removed the traction tyre (a 14xx doesn't need to haul more than 2 auto trailers) and replaced the wheel, but the cab was occupied by the motor, which is not acceptable nowadays.  I hid the motor with crew and plasticard shutters on mine, and it gave a good few years' service and owed me nothing when it finally succumbed to a combination of pickup failure and mazak rot,

[Miss Prism]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Reliable 0-4-2 chassis are not the easiest to produce, as balancing them requires very precise weight distribution.

 

That is a myth. A centre of gravity could be almost anywhere in the arrangement below and the chassis would still be well-balanced and the drivers would be equally loaded.

 

Yes, a gearbox is required, and unfortunately our current RTR manufacturers cannot get their tiny minds around providing a gearbox, because it would cost an extra £2. What do you expect from your £120? Oh yes, I forgot, firebox flicker...

 

 

[The Johnster]

But it’s not just about loading the drivers, there’s the rear axle as well, and I’ve had RTR chassis, not recent ones but post-Airfix, that have needed a lot of fettling of this because it is incorrectly sprung.  Too strong and the centre axle is lifted, too weak and the outer axles rock on the axis of the centre (particularly guilty but not on it’s own, Hornby most recent generic Jinty as on 2721; eventually gave up and put a Baccy 57xx chassis under it, what a transformation!).  Add to this that the rear wheelset of a 14xx is a radial, and no RTR designer seems so far to have come to grips with how these work, and we’re headed for trouble.  K’s kit had a loose pony, Airfix IIRC  had the rear axle rigid within the frame, and I assume the geared DJM version was rigid as well.  
 

A radial truck should be vertically pivoted at it’s centre point and be sprung to guide the loco into curves when she is running bunker first, to control the chassis’ excess rear overhang, but the RTR designers cannot resist vertical springing to hold the axle down and tip tractive weight forward, and not just on 14xx.  It would be better IMHO to ballast it down for trackholding, and lightly spring it laterally.  British RTR have never apparently really understood bogies, ponies, or radials.  Taking Bachmann 56xx as an example, the rear axle is allowed to sort of tag along with the rest of the loco but is uncontrolled beyond that, and Baccy 45xx/4575 and Hornby 5101 have pony trucks.  As for the flangeless rear wheels of Hornby pacifics at over £200 a pop…

 

On a 3-axle chassis, only the centre axle needs springing, and then only slightly, but it needs a little downward play as well as upward.  
 

I completely agree about gearboxes, but most current RTR steam outline sort of has them in the form of 2-stage worm/gear drive, the chassis sideframes acting as the gearbox casing, and the original Airfix 14xx had a gearbox at the end of it’s flexible drive shaft, a quite advanced format for the time. 

[Miss Prism]

I think you have amply explained why the current approach of our RTR manufacturers for the suspension and transmission for an 0-4-2T is fundamentally flawed.

[Steamport Southport]

The K's one had a whitemetal casting for the truck. ISTR they recommended fixing it. I did.

 

Why anyone needs one to turn is baffling. The whole locomotive is smaller than most 0-6-0Ts and if you can't get one of those to go around your curves then you're doing it wrong.

 

Unfortunately too many people have the mindset that it's still the 1950s to 1970s era (including some of the manufacturers) and things need to go around very tight curves. They don't.

 

 

As for Radials try the Bachmann LNWR Coal Tank which has one and the L&YR 2-4-2T that has two!

 

We've also had the Bachmann MR 0-4-4T and Hornby's SECR H Class 0-4-4T and people keep saying small 0-4-4Ts are impossible to make work.

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

27 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

As for the flangeless rear wheels of Hornby pacifics at over £200 a pop…

 

You get a proper set in the box and you have done for about 15 years!

 

 

Jason

[No Decorum]

13 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

You get a proper set in the box and you have done for about 15 years!

 

 

Jason

Yes but they often jam solid due to poor design. In my experience of recent Hornby, only the Princesses got it right.

[Butler Henderson]

Back to the topics subject I gather from a posting elsewhere the issue with the Dapol made chassis was the rear wheels were too sprung which subsequently is what Hornby corrected. 

[LittleWesternModelRailway]

Thanks all for the feedback, I picked up an Airfix model not long ago for pretty cheap and since this was a different livery (1420  with GWR shirt button, I wasn’t sure if it was the same just looked different or with some changes)

It does however from the photos not look like the motor is sticking up in the cab like it is prominent on the Airfix, perhaps just bad camera angle. Either way for 24quid I went for it, if it ends up a display at least I have been warned as to what it really is  

 

thanks all

Edited January 9, 2022 by LittleWesternModelRailway
Change number

[Butler Henderson]

Assuming  the  body is the factory finish that is Dapols 1995 D19 (oddly the same catalogue number as the ex Airfix GWR 1466) which should have the 1995 chassis but then it possible someone may have swopped them)