Re-watched Sink the Bismarck! (1960) again and I'm not sure if I like it as much as I used to.

[OnTheBranchline]

I recently re-watched this movie which I loved when I was younger but since now that I am older I'm becoming more torn on it.

 

On the one hand, it's one of the better WW2 naval movies with being well crafted and reasonably told (some of the details are left out, like Prince of Wales and Hood shooting at Prinz Eugen first by accident but they don't really matter). The acting is good with Kenneth More, Dana Wynter with side roles by character actors like Michael Holdern and the sets feel like we're on ships (bonus being the interior shots of the gun turrets are from HMS Vanguard - the last UK battleship in service at the time of filming and broken up in the next year I believe). Even the models look decent for the time.

 

On the other hand, the liberties that they take to make this movie are a bit jarring if you know the history. The Royal Navy is made out to be David and Bismarck is the unstoppable Goliath (or more accurately Yamato) when in fact reality is the opposite. The British had the resources to deal with Bismarck, it was a lucky shot at a 20 year old battlecruiser that helped get Bismarck its infamy).  Also, the German commander is made out to be the perfect Nazi when in actual fact, Admiral Lutgens was very cynical about what the Germans could do about the British navy.

 

It's worth a watch either way, not sure if other people felt the same.

[brossard]

Yeah, well, getting older and wiser will do that to you.  These war movies from that time were meant to make the audience feel good about beating the baddies.

 

Agree it is a good although I haven't seen it in decades.

 

John

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

History is writen by the victors and in all these movies made not that long after the war by peope who were in and around the time of the actual happening,one of the actors,Esmond Knight who plays the POW captain was actually on the bridge of her in the battle and lost his sight when she was hit,

 

[Phil Bullock]

I still enjoy it it’s a good yarn. One thing that possibly jars for me is the main convoy plotting chart being in London….. wasn’t it run from Liverpool? 
 

A friend of mine’s father was on Hood at one stage in the 30s, posted off and ended up on submarines thank goodness.

 

Yes it was a lucky shot that did for Hood but did call in to question the battle cruiser concept …. Heavily armed but lightly armoured. The despondency that her sinking must have caused doesn’t bear thinking about. 
 

As far as WW2 naval films go a few others float my boat …. Battle of the River Plate, In which we Serve and The Cruel Sea …. And at least the last two addresses the Battle of the Atlantic which was largely forgotten. Das Boot works well for a balancing the view but something covering PQ17 would not go amiss …. The Malta Story does pretty well with Pedestal and the Ohio, HMS Ledbury having a significant role in both. 
 

Coastal Command anti submarine aircraft missions have fascinated me since reading Ivan Southall’s They shall not Pass Unseeen as a lad …. The exploits of 461 and 228 squadrons flying out of Pembroke Dock, I have this reminder on my dining room wall. 
 

Churchill said it was the u-boats that terrified him and the Battle of the Atlantic of which the Bismarck episode was one chapter was probably the longest running battle of the war in which the role of the Merchant Marine was unheralded for too long. Brave men all. 

Edited January 28, 2022 by Phil Bullock

[Oldddudders]

My father (1909 - 1982) should have been on Hood's fatal voyage, but he was delayed and she had sailed before he got there from home in London.

 

He served with the actor Michael Hordern at some stage of the war, possibly on the aircraft carrier Illustrious. 

[Kickstart]

Hi

 

I hadn't seen this 2 part drama at the time, but found it yesterday. Based on the sinking of the Laconia

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijoHGhSDSls

 

All the best

 

Katy

 

[Steamport Southport]

5 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

I still enjoy it it’s a good yarn. One thing that possibly jars for me is the main convoy plotting chart being in London….. wasn’t it run from Liverpool? 
 

A friend of mine’s father was on Hood at one stage in the 30s, posted off and ended up on submarines thank goodness.

 

Yes it was a lucky shot that did for Hood but did call in to question the battle cruiser concept …. Heavily armed but lightly armoured. The despondency that her sinking must have caused doesn’t bear thinking about. 
 

As far as WW2 naval films go a few others float my boat …. Battle of the River Plate, In which we Serve and The Cruel Sea …. And at least the last two addresses the Battle of the Atlantic which was largely forgotten. Das Boot works well for a balancing the view but something covering PQ17 would not go amiss …. The Malta Story does pretty well with Pedestal and the Ohio, HMS Ledbury having a significant role in both. 
 

Coastal Command anti submarine aircraft missions have fascinated me since reading Ivan Southall’s They shall not Pass Unseeen as a lad …. The exploits of 461 and 228 squadrons flying out of Pembroke Dock, I have this reminder on my dining room wall. 
 

Churchill said it was the u-boats that terrified him and the Battle of the Atlantic of which the Bismarck episode was one chapter was probably the longest running battle of the war in which the role of the Merchant Marine was unheralded for too long. Brave men all. 

 

Yes, before that it was in Plymouth. Still there and is now a museum.

 

https://liverpoolwarmuseum.co.uk/about/

 

Certainly when I was a kid it was still seen as being a secret that was talked about in hushed tones. Just looks like any other office block is a business district of a large town or city.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4075774,-2.9937962,3a,75y,93.93h,90.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqPVPLiVP3mNs-PP730QNWg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

Jason

[OnTheBranchline]

6 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

I still enjoy it it’s a good yarn. One thing that possibly jars for me is the main convoy plotting chart being in London….. wasn’t it run from Liverpool? 
 

A friend of mine’s father was on Hood at one stage in the 30s, posted off and ended up on submarines thank goodness.

 

Yes it was a lucky shot that did for Hood but did call in to question the battle cruiser concept …. Heavily armed but lightly armoured. The despondency that her sinking must have caused doesn’t bear thinking about. 
 

As far as WW2 naval films go a few others float my boat …. Battle of the River Plate, In which we Serve and The Cruel Sea …. And at least the last two addresses the Battle of the Atlantic which was largely forgotten. Das Boot works well for a balancing the view but something covering PQ17 would not go amiss …. The Malta Story does pretty well with Pedestal and the Ohio, HMS Ledbury having a significant role in both. 
 

Coastal Command anti submarine aircraft missions have fascinated me since reading Ivan Southall’s They shall not Pass Unseeen as a lad …. The exploits of 461 and 228 squadrons flying out of Pembroke Dock, I have this reminder on my dining room wall. 
 

Churchill said it was the u-boats that terrified him and the Battle of the Atlantic of which the Bismarck episode was one chapter was probably the longest running battle of the war in which the role of the Merchant Marine was unheralded for too long. Brave men all. 

 

Uh.... I think Jutland did that, not Hood's sinking.

[Phil Bullock]

18 minutes ago, OnTheBranchline said:

 

Uh.... I think Jutland did that, not Hood's sinking.

Yes know what you mean but Hood was built after Jutland so not enough to stop construction perhaps? 

[colin smith]

1960 was quite late for a British WW2 film seeking to document an actual event from the war, albeit with some factual liberties. After that there was often greater Hollywood involvement and events were increasingly elaborated on or wholly invented (The Great Escape, Heroes of Telemark, 633 Squadron, etc) and from the late 60s ostensibly WW2 Hollywood films were influenced by events in Vietnam and became more about the waste and futility of war as seen from the combatants’ perspective rather than banging the nation’s drum.

 

Looking back, post-war British films like Battle of the River Plate, The Dambusters, Sink the Bismark, The Wooden Horse, and the rest, seem quaint. Perhaps even more archaic than the events they depict. They were as much about post-war national myth-making as war-time reality and if as a child I accepted that myth without questioning I would grow to question it and then despise it. Today I could only tolerate a war film with the premise that war is collective insanity rather than as something glorious with clear moral distinctions between good and bad.    

[Oldddudders]

54 minutes ago, colin smith said:

Today I could only tolerate a war film with the premise that war is collective insanity rather than as something glorious with clear moral distinctions between good and bad.    

So the progress of Hitler and his ghastly ideas wasn't justification for taking him on?

[EddieB]

With regard to convoys and U-boats, I'd recommend this book:

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Game-Birds-Wolves-Secret-that/dp/1529353033

 

P.S. Might still be available "remaindered" at "The Works"!

Edited January 28, 2022 by EddieB

[Phil Bullock]

2 minutes ago, EddieB said:

With regard to convoys and U-boats, I'd recommend this book:

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Game-Birds-Wolves-Secret-that/dp/1529353033

Thanks like the look of that will track down a copy. 

[Phil Bullock]

14 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

So the progress of Hitler and his ghastly ideas wasn't justification for taking him on?

It’s easy to get moralistic about collective responsibility at this distance isn’t it? We had tried to avoid conflict for years by appeasement which plainly hadn’t worked …. 
 

I don’t think anyone would brand the entire populations as culpable now either…. Plainly they were led by an extremist culture and there was a spectrum of engagement with that ranging from enthusiasm to downright active resistance although this shifted as time went on. It’s an argument that I continually have with SWMBO about more recent and current conflicts …. How much can be tolerated before intervention is required? Very often only history can be the judge of whether a correct call was made…. And in the case of WW2 it was a close call. 

[colin smith]

23 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

So the progress of Hitler and his ghastly ideas wasn't justification for taking him on?

That's not what I said. I said war is collective insanity. Not the British declaring war on the Nazis in 1939. I mean all war everywhere.

[Legend]

2 hours ago, colin smith said:

1960 was quite late for a British WW2 film seeking to document an actual event from the war, albeit with some factual liberties. After that there was often greater Hollywood involvement and events were increasingly elaborated on or wholly invented (The Great Escape, Heroes of Telemark, 633 Squadron, etc) and from the late 60s ostensibly WW2 Hollywood films were influenced by events in Vietnam and became more about the waste and futility of war as seen from the combatants’ perspective rather than banging the nation’s drum.

 

Looking back, post-war British films like Battle of the River Plate, The Dambusters, Sink the Bismark, The Wooden Horse, and the rest, seem quaint. Perhaps even more archaic than the events they depict. They were as much about post-war national myth-making as war-time reality and if as a child I accepted that myth without questioning I would grow to question it and then despise it. Today I could only tolerate a war film with the premise that war is collective insanity rather than as something glorious with clear moral distinctions between good and bad.    

I thought the Hero’s of Telemark was quite factual . The basics of Heavy Water, Commando Raid, bombing , then sinking of the ferry are certainly correct, even though it seems implausible . 
 

Sink the Bismark also one of my favourites growing up . I looked at as a ripping yarn back then but as you get older you get much more circumspect and realise 1000s died not just in the Hood but on Bismark itself  so it really is a horrific story of war . 

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, colin smith said:

1960 was quite late for a British WW2 film seeking to document an actual event from the war, albeit with some factual liberties. After that there was often greater Hollywood involvement and events were increasingly elaborated on or wholly invented (The Great Escape, Heroes of Telemark, 633 Squadron, etc) and from the late 60s ostensibly WW2 Hollywood films were influenced by events in Vietnam and became more about the waste and futility of war as seen from the combatants’ perspective rather than banging the nation’s drum.

 

Looking back, post-war British films like Battle of the River Plate, The Dambusters, Sink the Bismark, The Wooden Horse, and the rest, seem quaint. Perhaps even more archaic than the events they depict. They were as much about post-war national myth-making as war-time reality and if as a child I accepted that myth without questioning I would grow to question it and then despise it. Today I could only tolerate a war film with the premise that war is collective insanity rather than as something glorious with clear moral distinctions between good and bad.    

 

Fun fact about The Wooden Horse.

 

Carry On actor Peter Butterworth went for an audition for a part in it. Obviously when he was still a young man and an unknown actor. Got turned down flat with a remark that he "didn't look convincingly heroic or athletic enough".

 

He was one of the men actually involved and was also involved in the real Great Escape!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Butterworth

 

 

 

Jason

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, colin smith said:

That's not what I said. I said war is collective insanity. Not the British declaring war on the Nazis in 1939. I mean all war everywhere.

But war is not something taken out of the cupboard, plugged in and switched on. Every conflict has a history of someone's dissatisfaction with the actions of someone else, until that boils over into military intervention. You will need to reprogram humanity to overcome that tendancy. 

[Andy Kirkham]

6 hours ago, Kickstart said:

Hi

I hadn't seen this 2 part drama at the time, but found it yesterday. Based on the sinking of the Laconia

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijoHGhSDSls

 

All the best

 

Katy

 

 

Thanks. I didn't know about the Laconia incident and I've just looked it up on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia_incident . A truly ghastly  business, added to all the other horrors of the Battle of the Atlantic that I already knew about. Maybe I'm feeling a bit fragile at the moment, but I started to read The Cruel Sea recently but some of the horror was a bit much for me and I couldn't read it to the end. I guess the film toned down this aspect to a certain extent but there were still some distressing incidents as I recall, such as having to drop depth charges amidst survivors swimming in the sea.

 

I do still enjoy watching those postwar films and  I can't really find it in me to accuse them of any serious dishonesty. 

 

<Edit> I saw Midway (2019) the other day and it didn't seem all that different in essence from those British films.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Andy Kirkham

[Andy Kirkham]

29 minutes ago, Legend said:

Sink the Bismark also one of my favourites growing up . I looked at as a ripping yarn back then but as you get older you get much more circumspect and realise 1000s died not just in the Hood but on Bismark itself  so it really is a horrific story of war . 

 

My favourite film as a boy was Zulu (probably joint first with Daleks' Invasion of Earth 2150AD) but I don't honestly feel I want to see it again; I'm not sure I'd be able to relish  the sight of hundreds of Zulus being mown down by British gunfire.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Andy Kirkham

[Andy Kirkham]

11 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

 

 

 

That picture made me sit up when I saw it, my immediate reaction being that the U-Boat appears too big in comparison with the Sunderland. But I looked up their respective dimensions and discovered that the average U-Boat was indeed over twice the length of a Sunderland.

 

I think I had the impression of the Sunderland as being the behemoth of the skies on account of it being, at 10s 6d, in the most expensive  category of Airfix kits.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Andy Kirkham

[colin smith]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

But war is not something taken out of the cupboard, plugged in and switched on. Every conflict has a history of someone's dissatisfaction with the actions of someone else, until that boils over into military intervention. You will need to reprogram humanity to overcome that tendancy. 

Indeed. And the reprogramming starts with culture and education.

Edited January 28, 2022 by colin smith
clarity

[Ohmisterporter]

Getting back to the film, one scene that really annoys is when Bismark  fires at a shadowing British destroyer and blows it out of the water with the first salvo. It never happened. If you are producing a reasonably factual, and well known, event in WW2 why invent a spurious and unnecessary episode?

 

 

[brianusa]

1 hour ago, Andy Kirkham said:

 

My favourite film as a boy was Zulu (probably joint first with Daleks' Invasion of Earth 2150AD) but I don't honestly feel I want to see it again; I'm not sure I'd be able to relish  the sight of hundreds of Zulus being mown down by British gunfire.

Although my boyhood was long gone,, I always liked "Zulu"  As well as WW2 films, prion conflicts are just a interesting, even more so as they are history in the strictest sense; what you read about in books.  Well acted and beautifully filmed, it was a stand out movie.

      Brian.

[62613]

5 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

Yes know what you mean but Hood was built after Jutland so not enough to stop construction perhaps? 

The theory now is that, having closed the range at full speed, to nullify the effect of plunging fire on the thiin deck armour, Hood was in the the middle of a high - speed turn, so as to bring her aft guns into action, and the shell hit below  the armour belt, due to the heel. Still flipping lucky at about 10 miles, though!

 

One of my favourite WW2 films is San Demetrio London, which was a basically accurate record what happened to her after the convoy she was part of was attacked by Admiral Scheer in mid - Atlantic. There aren't many films about the part played by the merchant navy in WW2. The film also included the sacrifice of HMS Jervis Bay, which was the convoy's sole escort, it was also, I think, the first film to feature Gordon Jackson. 

I thought In Which We Serve was also made during the war; it was a thinly disguised biography of HMS Kelly and her wartime Captain, Louis Mountbatten. The scene in the cargo shed in Alexandria with him saying farewell to his surviving crew actually happened.