OO Gauge GWR Toplight Mainline & City Coaches announced

[Hal Nail]

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Note that the 1948-56 non-gangwayed unlined crimson...

 

is a much lighter shade than the 1956 maroon or the gangwyed stock carmine

Surely non-gangwayed crimson and gangwayed carmine are exactly the same thing?

 

Carmine is just a made up name for crimson?

 

[Budgie]

14 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Surely non-gangwayed crimson and gangwayed carmine are exactly the same thing?

 

Carmine is just a made up name for crimson?

You can tell Stanley Gibbons Ltd. that, then. They've even got a sample of it on their colour card, so you can be sure you've got the right colour.

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, Budgie said:

You can tell Stanley Gibbons Ltd. that, then. They've even got a sample of it on their colour card, so you can be sure you've got the right colour.

So Hornby should be alright then as they're majority owned by the same investment group as Stanley Gibbons Ltd.

[Steamport Southport]

Crimson Lake, Crimson, what some call Carmine and Maroon should be the same colour.

 

It was only really the amount of varnish used and sometimes lining that made them look different in different light conditions. Obviously lesser coaches in BR days were getting less varnish than MR ones.

 

Look at a photo of 1000 pulling BR Maroon coaches. Same colour.

 

 

https://rcts.zenfolio.com/steam-lmsr/midland-railway/4p-deeley-compound-4-4-0/eb9351ce7

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/41000-mr-2631-mr-1000-lms-1000-br-41000/

 

As is the LMS liveried 5690 often paired with it during the 1980s. Plenty of photos of them working together.

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/45690-leander-lms-5690-br-45690/

 

There was also debate whether the BR "Red" Duchesses were different to the coaches. They were exactly the same.

 

 

No idea why this debate keeps coming up.

 

 

Jason

[cctransuk]

36 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Crimson Lake, Crimson, what some call Carmine and Maroon should be the same colour.

 

Carmine? ..... as in Carmine and cream? (Blood and custard)?

 

THAT Carmine was definitely NOT the same as BR coach maroon / Crimson Lake.

 

The reason that the debate keeps coming up is illustrated perfectly by your post - a lack of consistency / agreement when describing colours.

 

CJI.

[The Johnster]

Righty ho, this one is a rabbit hole and I really don't want to go further down it than I absolutely need to, but there is a lot of confusion about this colour.  Colour, as Jason alludes with his point about varnish, is a diffiult chap to pin down objectively, and is changed in perception by ambient lighting, then by photographic, printing, electronic and monitor variations, and then again by ambient lighting.  And it faded differently in different conditions and on different surfaces, and different paintshops may not have mixed it identically or applied it in the same way (Swindon being noted for poor application on locos cf  Caerphilly, for example). 

 

But BR 1948 unlined crimson is not the same thing as the much darker 1956 maroon, which is darker.  Getting a model's colour 'right' is a hiding to nothing, but plenty of manufacturers (particularaly red box) have got it spectacularly wrong in the past.  I have bumbled about the planet for 71 years believing that carmine as in 1948 carmine/cream (blood'n'custard) is a darker colour than 1948 crimson, but it is entirely possible that they are the same and the adjoining presence of the contrasting bright cream has fooled me.  My septugenerian bumbling has also led me to believe that said carmine is lighter than 1956 maroon.  Perhaps I have been wrong; wouldn't be the first time...

 

And that's enough rabbit hole for me for now.

 

 

[Miss Prism]

[cctransuk]

2 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Righty ho, this one is a rabbit hole and I really don't want to go further down it than I absolutely need to, but there is a lot of confusion about this colour.  Colour, as Jason alludes with his point about varnish, is a diffiult chap to pin down objectively, and is changed in perception by ambient lighting, then by photographic, printing, electronic and monitor variations, and then again by ambient lighting.  And it faded differently in different conditions and on different surfaces, and different paintshops may not have mixed it identically or applied it in the same way (Swindon being noted for poor application on locos cf  Caerphilly, for example). 

 

But BR 1948 unlined crimson is not the same thing as the much darker 1956 maroon, which is darker.  Getting a model's colour 'right' is a hiding to nothing, but plenty of manufacturers (particularaly red box) have got it spectacularly wrong in the past.  I have bumbled about the planet for 71 years believing that carmine as in 1948 carmine/cream (blood'n'custard) is a darker colour than 1948 crimson, but it is entirely possible that they are the same and the adjoining presence of the contrasting bright cream has fooled me.  My septugenerian bumbling has also led me to believe that said carmine is lighter than 1956 maroon.  Perhaps I have been wrong; wouldn't be the first time...

 

And that's enough rabbit hole for me for now.

 

 

 

No rabbit hole; Carmine - as in blood - is most definitely NOT Crimson Lake - as in maroon.

 

Having seen the two together on many an occasion, the contrast was / is unmistakable.

 

CJI.

[cctransuk]

3 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

That, I would submit, shows left - relatively unweathered Crimson / blood versus right - weathered / faded Crimson / blood.

 

The weathering / fading of Crimson / blood has been put forward as a reason for the change to maroon.

 

CJI.

[Miss Prism]

[cctransuk]

17 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Now - anyone prepared to try to perpetuate the myth that Crimson = maroon?

 

Thank you, Miss Prism!

 

CJI.

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

 

 

No idea why this debate keeps coming up.

 

 

Another thing I was previously unaware of was the presence of fully chaired mixed gauge track at Carlisle…

[cctransuk]

3 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Another thing I was previously unaware of was the presence of fully chaired mixed gauge track at Carlisle…

 

Now what's THAT all about?

 

I have seen instances of track that is liable to subsidence, reinforced with additional lengths of rail.

 

CJI.

[The Johnster]

But it’s off centre.  Definitely mixed gauge, standard and 3’6” from the look of it…

[Hal Nail]

On 07/10/2023 at 21:38, Budgie said:

You can tell Stanley Gibbons Ltd. that, then. They've even got a sample of it on their colour card, so you can be sure you've got the right colour.

From Phoenix website:

 

"British Railways Coach Crimson.

Also refered to as Carmine or Blood.

Used between 1949 and 1955, on its own for Suburban Stock and in conjunction with P117 Cream for mainline stock.

For the Faded or Weathered version see P303.

All of our British Railways colours were matched to colour panels supplied to us by the Technical Services Department at Derby when we were suppliers to British Rail in the late 1970's and early 1980's".

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Hal Nail

[Nick Gough]

On 02/10/2023 at 09:34, Neal Ball said:

 

Of course the Hawksworth livery would be unlined... although I wonder if any of these Toplight carriages received that after the war. By this stage, they are at the end of their lives.

 

There is a photo of composite 7908, in Hawksworth livery, in 'A Pictorial Record of Great Western Coaches' part 2. 

 

It is in chocolate/cream with double waist lining, 'GREAT WESTERN' at the centre, but no sign of the twin shield.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Nick Gough

[checkrail]

57 minutes ago, Nick Gough said:

There is a photo of composite 7908, in Hawksworth livery, in 'A Pictorial Record of Great Western Coaches' part 2. 

 

It is in chocolate/cream with double waist lining, 'GREAT WESTERN' at the centre, but no sign of the twin shield.

Indeed - on p.97.  And next to it there's a photo of a complete rake, sharing the same description, 'post-1945 chocolate and cream'.  But on that pic I can't make out any lining at all.  On the other hand I can't make out any coach numbers either so it might just be my eyesight and the quality of the photo. On the same page there are two pics of these coaches in wartime brown, showing twin shields, and an official ex-works pic of a 3rd in crimson lake.  So quite a rich seam on one page.

 

Until I reached for my Russell I hadn't realised that although these coaches were planned in 1913 they were not actually built until 1921-22 due to the war. They're quite unusual and I hope Dapol do well with them.  I'll be waiting for the corridor toplights.

[AY Mod]

On my desk right now for review and I have to say I think they're superb.

 

Nice and weighty with superb running qualities. Bring on a slip coach!

[CoombeTown]

5 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

On my desk right now for review and I have to say I think they're superb.

 

Nice and weighty with superb running qualities. Bring on a slip coach!

How does the roof/end join look at normal viewing distance? Appreciate that the close-up probably makes it look far bigger than reality.

[AY Mod]

1 minute ago, DRoe96 said:

How does the roof/end join look at normal viewing distance?

 

It's perfectly fine (the far end is slightly raised as I hadn't secured one of the clips after digging round inside); just how close do you get to models on your layout?

[gwrrob]

11 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

On my desk right now for review and I have to say I think they're superb.

 

Nice and weighty with superb running qualities. Bring on a slip coach!

 

Lovely photos Andy.

[gwrrob]

3 minutes ago, gwrrob said:

 

Lovely photos Andy.

 

Any chance of some of the interior and underframe please Sir ?😉

[AY Mod]

One day. 

One a day.

One day like this.

One day my prints will come.

[Hal Nail]

The frosted glass in the actual toplights is a nice touch.

[AY Mod]

4 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

The frosted glass in the actual toplights is a nice touch.

 

It works well in the flesh especially.