The APT-E project comes to life

[Wolf27]

This , I hope will be the beginning of the project of a lifetime. One that I have been tinkering with since 1985, so far without success. UNTIL NOW.


pop etch 03 by Shane Wilton, on Flickr

 

pop etch 07 by Shane Wilton, on Flickr

 

pop etch 11 by Shane Wilton, on Flickr

 

pop etch 06 by Shane Wilton, on Flickr

 

This is the first step of what should be an interesting project, it is a test etch to see if making the POP Train is possible as an etch. It appears that it is ,so the next stage is to cad it up to the correct length and have this etched. Watch this space!

cheers

Shane

[RedgateModels]

I will be following this one with great interest

[PhilH]

That looks interesting, even though I have no affinity with the prototype. If it doesn't work out you could always turn it into a Wellington bomber!

[forest2807]

Excuse my ignorance Shane, but what is the 'POP train'?

[Gallows Close]

Hello Shane,

 

This is my kind of project. Can't wait to see more updates. Are you doing the POP with the prototype P-Train trailer?

 

Cheers,

Chris.

[griffgriff]

Excuse my ignorance Shane, but what is the 'POP train'?

 

Tried 'Google'?

[Oldddudders]

Excuse my ignorance Shane, but what is the 'POP train'?

I think the POP train was an early test-bed for APT-E, where E means experimental, not electric. Thus I think the POP train ran at Old Dalby to test out many of the new ideas that Derby had decided would be needed. These included the tilt and - probably - the hydro-kinetic brakes. I do not think the POP train was actually powered, nor did it need to be at that stage.

 

I suspect many of us feel the APT was BR's great "near-miss" because so much of it seemed to be going well, but there was ultimately grossly insufficient funding to make the thing work reliably. Whether a cash-strapped, Government-funded organisation should have been allowed to set off down such a long path is also open to question, but I believe that politics played a part here, too, because Derby seemed awash with very bright engineers in need of work, after some private sector enterprises had gone - er - pop!

[ianmaccormac]

http://www.apt-e.org/kit/kit.htm

 

gets you to a page full of information. I am just watching a two hour lecture on the whole project development that I have just downloaded from the site. Absolutely fascinating! Power Nought Power is the derivation of the POP.

I had seen this in the seventies as a teenager and see the remains as I speed past Crewe on the WCML every now and again. So now I know what you are having a go at building, may I say best wishes!

Cheers

Ian in Blackpool

[Wolf27]

Hi All

 

I should have explained what this project is all about to begin with really, its not readily obvious what the POP train is/was. As the last couple of posting have said, along with links to the APT-P website, the POP train was the APT in its earliest form and dates from 1971. POP is an acronym for Power Nought Power which essentially meant that the formation of the train was two power cars and no trailers or unpowered vehicles in between. The two vehicles that formed the POP train were skeletal or spaceframe construction and were built to test the bogies, suspension and brake systems. Each vehicle housed two small cabins to house test equipment. The vehicles were essentially power cars without cabs and outer cladding. It is these two vehicles that I am building and the etched work in the first posts pictures is the test etch to see if its possible to build these in brass. It is a section of roughly 1/3rd the total length. As can be seen it is possible with very few compromises which is good news and means the project is viable. These spaceframe constructions will also form the basis for the APT-E powercars, which will have etched brass overlays wrapped around them along with a resin cab. Doing it this way will be very close to the construction of the real train.

 

The next stage in the project is to make the very complicated swinging arm articulation bogies. These will be mainly constructed in etched brass with several main components coming together to make the complete bogie. Which may also have some form of suspension. More on this as it happens.

 

cheers

 

Shane

[Wolf27]

Hello Shane,

 

This is my kind of project. Can't wait to see more updates. Are you doing the POP with the prototype P-Train trailer?

 

Cheers,

Chris.

 

I built a model of this version a few years ago, it can be seen on the APT-P website in the models gallery. It was not entirely accurate as the drawings I had were incorrect, it was too long and a bit too high but looked the part. I do intend to do a better version of the fully clad 3 car POP train using the spaceframe vehicles as a basis.

 

cheers

 

Shane

[Gallows Close]

I built a model of this version a few years ago, it can be seen on the APT-P website in the models gallery.

Hello Shane,

 

I have seen the POP train model on the APT-P website quite a few times - just did not connect it with you - If that is a taste of what you are about to do, then we are in for a treat of a thread.

 

Cheers,

Chris.

[m davies]

Slightly off topic, regarding the APT-P, much of the power car technology ended up in the current Class 91, which is fundamentally a double cab non tilting APT-P power car with out the fangly APT brakes.

 

Back OT, nice project shane, best of luck.

 

Kindest

 

Michael

[the penguin of doom]

Hi Shane.

 

As you know, I'm not really an electric man, but I looked in on this and am finding it fascinating. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread.

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[jamie92208]

Regarding the POP train was this the one that was used to see what speed a train would derail at without tilt. I vaguely remembeer reading once that they used a curve somewhere in Dover Docks area and pushed a vehicle round a very sharp chord of a triangle at successively faster speeds until it overturned. This was to test the theories about tilting.

 

Back on thread the model looks great, I remember seeing photos of those vehicles and will look forward to the E train in due course.

 

Jamie

[BernardTPM]

Remember that the tilt was there not to stop the train falling over, but to negate the effects felt by the passengers. Though the tilting is often likened to the way a motorcyclist leans in around curves, on tilting trains the centre of gravity is not significantly changed; in fact the distribution of passengers within the train, which is unpredictable, would probably have more effect. The findings showed that there would be unacceptable discomfort to passengers a long time before the train was in danger of falling over on a curve, so tilt would reduce the need to brake for curves making journeys quicker and reducing energy consumption.

[Wolf27]

Hi All

I took delivery of a set of etches a few days ago for the horrendously complicated swinging arm bogies that are eventually destined to go under the POP train and APT-E. I have produced three components on the etch which form two parts of the bogie. When I put it together I realised that there is an error that needs to be rectified to make it more accurate. Oh well, never mind.

The etch as it comes

apt bogie-01 by Shane Wilton, on Flickr

 

Cheers

Shane

[Mr_Tilt]

Regarding the POP train was this the one that was used to see what speed a train would derail at without tilt. I vaguely remembeer reading once that they used a curve somewhere in Dover Docks area and pushed a vehicle round a very sharp chord of a triangle at successively faster speeds until it overturned. This was to test the theories about tilting.

 

Back on thread the model looks great, I remember seeing photos of those vehicles and will look forward to the E train in due course.

 

Jamie

 

I know it's been a long while since this was posted but I've only just joined the Forum.

 

The overturning tests were done with a standard Mk 1 coach with B4 bogies. IIRC it had 'worn wheel' profile treads developed by Dr, Alan Wickens, BR's Head of Research, and it was instrumented to the eyebrows, including video cameras looking at the wheels. The coach was pushed down the slope by a 47 and the speeds were increased by increments. However it just would NOT derail and we had to work into the small hours before the darn thing came off! Video early in the tests showed the wheels climbing their flanges but obstinately refusing to go over the edge, such is development work.

 

Turning to Shane's superb model I've been lucky to see it in the metal and it's totally awesome. To compare it with the real thing here's a photo of me peering out of PC4's girders at Crewe Station sometime in the early 70s.

 

[Wolf27]

Thanks for bringing this topic back to the fore Kit, its been a long time since I started work on this project but the progress on the full length version has been limited to doing the cad drawings, which are almost completed. It has taken a back seat as I am working on an all brass APT-P.

 

 

cheers

 

Shane

 

ps Lab 4 is coming along, slowly but coming along!

[SirNigelGresley4498]

I think my Grandfather was involved with the overturning tests after the Eltham Well Hall accident, and (as he tells it) when he approached his boss to suggest the tests it was done so with no small degree of trepidation. To his surprise (and relief) the response was "That sounds like fun, Cope".

[Mr_Tilt]

Cope? I worked with a 'Cope' when I first started at the R&D Dept, in Track and Structures! I'm darned if I can remember his first name now, but we were involved in testing bridges, the paved track project and using lasers to measure things. Would that have been him?

[SirNigelGresley4498]

Cope? I worked with a 'Cope' when I first started at the R&D Dept, in Track and Structures! I'm darned if I can remember his first name now, but we were involved in testing bridges, the paved track project and using lasers to measure things. Would that have been him?

 

It might well have been - Geoffrey Cope, apparently known as "The Gaulieter" at Euston on account of his wire rimmed spectacles.

[Mr_Tilt]

Sounds like a different Cope then.

 

As I recall the Cope who I worked with looked more like a young University Prof, black rimmed specs, and seriously flared trousres, this being the 70s of course.   

[pwr]

Any update Shane

 

 

Paul R

[Wolf27]

No not really, its still sat on the back row of the workshop. Something else may provide some new motivation by the end of June, not that I am lacking motivation, its time.

 

cheers

 

Shane

[pwr]

No not really, its still sat on the back row of the workshop. Something else may provide some new motivation by the end of June, not that I am lacking motivation, its time.

 

cheers

 

Shane

I know how that feels!

 

Paul R