Class 37s so slow!

[125_driver]

I have purchased a couple of Bachmann class 37s and have to say I'm disappointed with the top speed, especially when a decoder is fitted, but even without. 

It takes one 27 seconds to circumnavigate my layout at full speed, compared to a Hornby TTs 47 which takes 11 or a TTS HST which can do it in 9!

Now obviously I'd expect the HST to be faster than the 37, but to me the 37 looks to do a scale 50mph max. I'm after something that will look something like scale top speed (90mph???). 

Is there anything I can do to speed the locos up, are they setup to be slower than they need be????

Thanks in advance.

[russ p]

11 minutes ago, 125_driver said:

I have purchased a couple of Bachmann class 37s and have to say I'm disappointed with the top speed, especially when a decoder is fitted, but even without. 

It takes one 27 seconds to circumnavigate my layout at full speed, compared to a Hornby TTs 47 which takes 11 or a TTS HST which can do it in 9!

Now obviously I'd expect the HST to be faster than the 37, but to me the 37 looks to do a scale 50mph max. I'm after something that will look something like scale top speed (90mph???). 

Is there anything I can do to speed the locos up, are they setup to be slower than they need be????

Thanks in advance.

 

I'm not 100% sure how to it but I think it could be the TV setting needs adjusting 

Take a reading of it rhenium give it a higher one and see if it improves it 

[rob D2]

TBH , when pulling freight a class 6 top speed is 60, class 7 less ( can't remember exactly from NR manuals ),

 

And it sounds like your corners will be so tight thsn in real life they'd be a massive speed restriction anyway .

 

So in other words for authenticity , i wouldn't worry 

[Roy Langridge]

12 hours ago, 125_driver said:

I have purchased a couple of Bachmann class 37s and have to say I'm disappointed with the top speed, especially when a decoder is fitted, but even without. 

It takes one 27 seconds to circumnavigate my layout at full speed, compared to a Hornby TTs 47 which takes 11 or a TTS HST which can do it in 9!

Now obviously I'd expect the HST to be faster than the 37, but to me the 37 looks to do a scale 50mph max. I'm after something that will look something like scale top speed (90mph???). 

Is there anything I can do to speed the locos up, are they setup to be slower than they need be????

Thanks in advance.

 

I assume you have this on DCC? If so, what decoder have you got in it?

 

Roy

[GeoffAlan]

Speed is so subjective. I know my outer loop is a scale 0.5 miles to the nearest 10yds. A scale 100mph looks fairly quick! A scale 180mph As in Eurostar and the like is incredibly fast. Also at the opposite end a scale 20mph is positively crawling.

 

At exhibitions I've seen shunters whizzing about at impossible speeds and Express trains crawling along at unrealistic slow speeds.

 

It's up to every modeller to decide if speed scales at 1/87, or in my case 1/148.

[Darius43]

13 hours ago, russ p said:

 

I'm not 100% sure how to it but I think it could be the TV setting needs adjusting

 

Its probably the vertical hold again...

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[125_driver]

1 hour ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

I assume you have this on DCC? If so, what decoder have you got in it?

 

Roy

Its a Howes sound decoder. 

[125_driver]

1 hour ago, GeoffAlan said:

Speed is so subjective. I know my outer loop is a scale 0.5 miles to the nearest 10yds. A scale 100mph looks fairly quick! A scale 180mph As in Eurostar and the like is incredibly fast. Also at the opposite end a scale 20mph is positively crawling.

 

At exhibitions I've seen shunters whizzing about at impossible speeds and Express trains crawling along at unrealistic slow speeds.

 

It's up to every modeller to decide if speed scales at 1/87, or in my case 1/148.

Exactly. I enjoy my layout running at intercity speeds, it isn't a slow cornish branch by any means. 

[rob D2]

The thing is when you watch real shunting it's not like some layouts where people try and get their 08s to crawl , real folk are trying to get the job done asap so they can go home or whatever 

[cravensdmufan]

Have you checked what value is set in CV5 (the max speed CV) ?

 

As it's a  Howes sound decoder it's probably an ESU Loksound v4 or v5, in which case the value can be set up to 255.

 

If yours is set to less then try increasing it.

[125_driver]

54 minutes ago, cravensdmufan said:

Have you checked what value is set in CV5 (the max speed CV) ?

 

As it's a  Howes sound decoder it's probably an ESU Loksound v4 or v5, in which case the value can be set up to 255.

 

If yours is set to less then try increasing it.

Will certainly give that a try thanks .

[Dagworth]

Also worth checking if the loco is faster with all functions switched off, make sure you haven't inadvertently got it in shunting mode.

 

Andi

[JSpencer]

2 hours ago, rob D2 said:

The thing is when you watch real shunting it's not like some layouts where people try and get their 08s to crawl , real folk are trying to get the job done asap so they can go home or whatever 

 

I remember one loco driver telling me that they would deliberately place some  vans in front of the building of whoever was watching them and then do shunting at normal speeds instead of dreadfully slow ones. This was in the 1990s.

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

5 hours ago, Darius43 said:

 

Its probably the vertical hold again...

 

Cheers

 

Darius

Just bang the top with your hand until it sorts itself out........works or one chokes on dust...

 

[125_driver]

3 hours ago, cravensdmufan said:

Have you checked what value is set in CV5 (the max speed CV) ?

 

As it's a  Howes sound decoder it's probably an ESU Loksound v4 or v5, in which case the value can be set up to 255.

 

If yours is set to less then try increasing it.

It was set to 248, upped it to 255 but no discernible difference. Thanks for the advice though. 

[cravensdmufan]

1 hour ago, 125_driver said:

It was set to 248, upped it to 255 but no discernible difference. Thanks for the advice though. 

Ah, that's a shame.  Thanks for reporting back.

 

Just wondering , what DCC system are you using?  I have a basic NCE Powercab starter system and all my Bachmann locos used to run at a slow max speed.  Then I took advice from Kevin at Coastal DCC who suggested I upgraded the layout power to 5amp using a Tam Valley booster.  Well it transformed the layout!  My Bachmann Class 90's whack along at a scale 110mph and it also eliminated lost memory issues in decoders.  It was a fairly cheap upgrade, certainly more economic than buying NCE's own upgrade.

Edited February 10, 2022 by cravensdmufan
Additional wording

[Kaput]

Check the value in CV53 and try reducing it. (ESU manual says if the loco hits max speed at around 3 quarters of the controller setting and the rest of the speed settings don't seem to do anything, lowering CV53 is the fix)

[atom3624]

I was going to say as well as the 'electronic fix', if these are older locomotives, it's always possible the grease has gone a little hard - needs cleaning out, removing and re-greasing a touch?

 

Al.

[Lurch]

3 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

I remember one loco driver telling me that they would deliberately place some  vans in front of the building of whoever was watching them and then do shunting at normal speeds instead of dreadfully slow ones. This was in the 1990s.

 

Probably one of the reasons I was fitting CCTV in sidings and yards in the 2000s then!

[125_driver]

2 hours ago, cravensdmufan said:

Ah, that's a shame.  Thanks for reporting back.

 

Just wondering , what DCC system are you using?  I have a basic NCE Powercab starter system and all my Bachmann locos used to run at a slow max speed.  Then I took advice from Kevin at Coastal DCC who suggested I upgraded the layout power to 5amp using a Tam Valley booster.  Well it transformed the layout!  My Bachmann Class 90's whack along at a scale 110mph and it also eliminated lost memory issues in decoders.  It was a fairly cheap upgrade, certainly more economic than buying NCE's own upgrade.

System is CT electronick.  I've generally found most things run very quick on it, and you can modify the power output pretty high if necessary. Id be very surprised if this was the cause tbh. It may just be that what looks scale to me is way out! For the record I'm wanting to run the 37s with regional railways coaches on semi fast passenger duties where they would have reached 90 (or 80???) Mph. 

I will check the greasing and have a play with cv53 and report back . 

[125_driver]

2 hours ago, Kaput said:

Check the value in CV53 and try reducing it. (ESU manual says if the loco hits max speed at around 3 quarters of the controller setting and the rest of the speed settings don't seem to do anything, lowering CV53 is the fix)

Nailed it. Thank-you so much. 

Cv53 was the issue, but strangely it was the opposite if what you suggested. When I reduced cv53 the loco got even slower, so, I thought I'd try increasing it, and hey presto jobs a good un! 

Thank you so much for pointing me in the right direction and for all the helpful suggestions others made on this post.

One final question, would Hornby tts class 47 decoders have cv53?

[Kaput]

CV53 is the reference voltage CV for ESU decoders. If TTS even has a CV53 it won't do the same thing.

[125_driver]

9 hours ago, Kaput said:

CV53 is the reference voltage CV for ESU decoders. If TTS even has a CV53 it won't do the same thing.

Right thanks for clearing that up.

[The Johnster]

On 10/02/2022 at 08:19, rob D2 said:

BH , when pulling freight a class 6 top speed is 60, class 7 less ( can't remember exactly from NR manuals ),

 

Class 6, 7, and 8 trains are speed restricted to the limit of the slowest speed rated vehicle in the train, up to 60mph.  So, for example, a fully fitted class 6 consisting of 10' wheelbase vanfits runs at 45mph, but a class 8 part-fitted train consisting entirely of bogie bolster Ds can run up to 60mph.  20ton brake vans are rated for 60mph running (though some were pretty rough at half that) except Queen Marys which can run at 75mph.  The timings are worked out with regard to the maximum load and brake force for the ruling uphill and downhill gradients on the train's route.  Class 8 trains are timed to run at 35mph, whatever speed they might be allowed to run at with regard to the vehicles.

 

Class 9 trains have no vacuum head and the instantner couplings are allowed to be set in the 'long' position, which means that 25 mph must not be exceeded irrespective of the speed the vehicles are allowed to run at.

 

On 10/02/2022 at 11:44, rob D2 said:

The thing is when you watch real shunting it's not like some layouts where people try and get their 08s to crawl , real folk are trying to get the job done asap so they can go home or whatever 

 

This.  There is, however, shunting and then there is shunting.  Sorting sidings in marshalling yards are a bit of a rough and ready knockabout game, with wagons flying around loose in all directions, frequent load bangs and clouds of dust when they hit stock that was part-filling the sidings, and the shunters are divided by the quick and the dead... 

 

At the other extreme, propelling stock into goods sheds or alongside loading platforms. or coal cells/drops where there may already be stock with men working on it, and the driver's view is restricted, is done with a good deal of caution at the crawl you mention.  Once the stock is positioned, the move away from the area takes place at a more normal 'yard' speed (a maximum of 15mph).  Similar practice is employed where wagons have to be precisely positioned for loading by or unloading from hopper chutes.  In fact, a good bit of layout shunting is of this sort, and while I do not like to see crawling for crawling's sake, it is justified for these sort of moves.

 

Somewhere in between these extremes is general yard work, the pace of which is governed by the speed of the staff on the ground controlling it.  They may be working on their own, and have to change the points as well as couple or uncouple, and there is no point in going faster than they can manage.  Two or more men working in unison with a good understanding of what's going on and an instinct for where to position themselves for the next move as soon as this one's finished can speed things up considerably.  Intimate knowledge of sight lines, the lighting at night, minor changes in gradient within the yard, and the driver's personality will go a good way towards this end as well.  This is a world in which skill and experience count for much more than the simple task of driving an express train to time; any idiot can do that and I knew some of them...

 

A typical scenario is a loco propelling a cut of vehicles into a siding.  The man on the ground, shunter or guard, will call the loco on to make the move once he has set the road, and once the leading wagon has caught up with him, he will handsignal the driver to maintain the speed he is walking at (running is clearly a safety issue).  When the cut gets in the position where he will uncouple it, he does so with the shunting pole and handsignals the loco to stop, and then to move away from him out beyond the turnout he must pull for the next move.  The cut, meanwhile, runs on under momentum to come to rest gently against the end of the siding or stock already on it; too fast and it'll bounce back out unless there's a man handy with a brake stick.

 

Everybody wants to finish and go home for tea, but nobody wants to kill or injure anyone in the process; the principle is that everybody goes home for tea!

 

Modelling operations at a busy marshalling yard, with several pilots working simultaneously and wagons whizzing about all over the place, would be a major challenge and I would love to see it done, but understand why it usually isn't!

 

On 10/02/2022 at 20:03, 125_driver said:

For the record I'm wanting to run the 37s with regional railways coaches on semi fast passenger duties where they would have reached 90 (or 80???) Mph. 

 

37s are rated 'not too exceed' at 105mph, so, assuming that the stock speed and line speed allows it, can easily run at 100mph with a passenger train.  47s are rated not to exceed 95mph, and the type 4 WR hydraulics for 90mph (of course, this was sometimes exceeded in service).  Can't off hand recall what 31s, 40s and Peaks were allowed now; 100mph I think.  50s were 110mph. 

 

Some others that I can remember were Hymeks and 25s at 90mph, 22s and 24s at 75mph, and 20s at 60mph. 

 

On 10/02/2022 at 20:12, 125_driver said:

Nailed it. Thank-you so much

 

I like a happy ending.  I judge train speeds on my layout by counting 4 chuffs for every wheel revolution, and it is not unknown for me to make chuffing noises, but I have steam locos and DC control; it is harder to be accurate with diesel or electric traction and the only audible clue is wheelbeats. 

 

If 30 mph is 44 fps, then as a very rough guide 44 divided by 76 (scale) is (according to the calculator on my phone) 0.57894737 scale fps.  Let's make life easy and use that to suggest ballpark 1 fps = 60mph, which means 1.5 fps = 90mph and 2 fps = 120mph.  You could set up markers a foot apart and time it, or set the markers further apart and extend the passing times to compensate, which would allow more precise timing and reasonable accuracy down to 30mph, as well as better delineating 45mph, or 75mph. 

 

Things are improving, but my general opinion of layout operating as exhibitions is that speeds are far too high, especially on curves, and that stabbed rat starts and brick wall stops are far too common.  I have particular bete noirs, such as the all too common practice of running around a train at a terminus and, when the loco run back on to the stock in the platform, it unceremoniously shoves it back, without stopping, on to the buffers. NONONONONO!!!!!!!!!!!! NO! Not if it's passenger stock.  Seriously, NO; I'll walk away from any layout that does this  The vacuum has been destroyed when the loco uncoupled and the brakes are hard on; moreover, before the stock is moved back towards the stops a brake continuity test must be carried out, taking about a minute.  Only then can the stock be positioned for passenger boarding and the doors unlocked.

 

The more observation of real railway operation you can manage, and I mean observation of how things are done in the real world, not just train spotting, the better and more satisfying your layout operating will be.  What I describe as 'traditional' practice, valid for layouts set up to the 90s, can be observed on heritage lines, and people there will be happy to answer any questions you have.  Observe how shunting moves are undertaken, how trains couple to each other. how quickly they typically accellerate and how they behave under braking.  Video it for reference at home, and watch old movies of steam-age operation especially shunting (don't do this if you are a health and safety officer, you'll have apoplexy).

[rob D2]

To be fair, I’m thinking more recently than those examples ,  not so much 1972 or ten foot wheelbase whatnots in the 50s, I was thinking about what I’d observed in the last twenty years TBh and my knowledge of the crappy network rail manuals as one if their minions ( for a bit )

Edited February 13, 2022 by rob D2