Specials, headcode 1T** versus 1Z**?

[melmerby]

20 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

That would fit in with the GWR superiority complex!

Corrected!

[Steadfast]

2 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

20 hours ago, Rivercider said:

The 'Z' headcode may now be for special use, but it was not always so.

Civil engineers trains on the WR were all 'Z' headcodes back in the 1980s.

Also headcodes 6Z10 6Z11 and 6Z12 were all regularly used in the 1980s for block trains of chemicals, particularly for ICI and Fisons.

 

31162 passes Trent Junction with 6Z12 Immingham to Avonmouth Fisons liquified anhydrous ammonia tanks. 15/9/80,

 

cheers

Expand  

 

It sounds like it no longer applies, but Z was also used for new regular freight flows that "missed" being included in the current version of the working timetable

Yep Z is still used for short term flows, new schedules or perhaps a schedule several hours after the booked due to disruption, instead of running late in the original one (eg a 6Z66 instead of a late running 6V66)

 

Jo

[Steadfast]

9 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

for instance 6G10/11/12 etc pick a different location every week on the ballasts, but the 10/11/12 are useful for identifying the loads from an enthusiasts point of view as the order of freights is predictable& repeatable.. (many track renewals take around 6 trains..: engineering equipment,  empty flatbeds, empty spoil, new spoil, new ballast, new track spread over 24 hours), but G means nowt to me as far as destination… last week it was Haywards Heath, 2 weeks ago it was Wimbledon, 3 weeks ago it was Weybridge… so I assume “G” is a variable…occasionally “C” is used interchangably on these too… plus the return workings simply continue the same headcodes… is “G” Eastleigh and “C” Hoo by any chance?

So... On the Western Region, you'll have A towards London (eg 7A09), B towards Bristol and Wales (eg 6B33) and C towards the west country (eg 7C77), though there are some exceptions. The Severnside bins are 6C03 and the Didcot coals to and from Avonmouth were D. I'm sure the other regions have something similar.

 

With infrastructure traffic (note this only applies to trains to and from worksite, NOT the trippers between yards which follow normal regional conventions) the letter will determine the operator. You may see a hired in loco or a cascade form site, which can confuse things visually.

 

Western:

C Colas

G GB

W DB

Y Freightliner

 

Southern:

C Colas

G GB

N DB

Y Freightliner

 

This weekend I've had Yankees from both Wales and Plymouth.

 

Jo

Edited February 14, 2022 by Steadfast

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, rodent279 said:

I've always wondered why the inter-regional designation was V for the WR, rather than W. I could understand O for the SR, as S was used for the ScR. Wasn't N used for the NE region until it disappeared?

I wonder if it was because if the electro-mechanical train describers used on the WR where a 'W' would have been a bit more awkward to arrange that a nice simple 'V' - but whatever the reasn it was there fr9m the inception.

 

Interesting ti see what paul posted about 1Z99 because originally on the WR it was used for a breakdown reain going to clear the line or for an engine going to assist as disabled train.  The original difference between 'X' and 'Z' was simple - 'Z' was for intra-Regional specials etc and 'X' was for inter-Regional specials etc.

 

What really caused the breakdown of area code letters and the original system for Class 2 rains by allocating what amounted to a route number in the 50-99 list was the introduction of CSR radio and changes to various database systems.  These changes required that no two trains could be in any signal box control area with the same 4 digit headcode.  It also spread fairly rapidly to Class 1 trains and was arranged then to ensure that no two trains would be running in what amounted to a Division but later muc h of a Region with the same headcode.  Hence numerous combinations of letters and numbers which look very strange when read against the original area alpha codes.

 

Incidentally as far as WR freight and engineers' train were concerned the latter almost inevitably carried a Z headcode because they were advised by traffic b notice and very few appeared in the WTT.  as far as freights were concerned the original system applied in that every WTT train had a headcode (and a full bussec ID as well of which the headcode formed the first four digits).  Only specials carried a 'Z;' code and we did our level best to reduce those to the minimum by using our Manual of Agreed Pathways (MAP) to try to cover most special movements although they  re weren't many.  What happened was that once I had the system fully established (very late 1980s/early 90s) with our freight WTT reisssued every 8 weeks (no more supplements, we just had new books although they were rather different from traditional WTTs because they were produced on a PC and printed in the reprographic office and were also designed to be used as signal box simplifiers to save Signalmen having to prepare their own simplifiers).  anyway we moved trains between the WTT and the MAP book depending on forecast traffic patterns from the freight businesses plus we'd usually had a pretty good idea of what was likely to be running and we knew which WTT paths weren't being used.  and MAP trains had 'normal' headcodes so didn't carry a 'Z' number.  We were fairly good at it and in any case it only took about a fortnight's notice to get a new train into our WTTs using that system so we kept down the number of specials. 

[keefer]

12 hours ago, keefer said:

Scottish Region used to have 1Zxx for inbound specials/excursions via Carlisle/WCML but 1Fxx for ER ones via Berwick-on-Tweed/ECML.

Outbound were all 1Zxx I think.

 

8 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

In my experience the ECML IC operator (GNER etc) used 1Fxx for specials rather than 1Zxx. On one occasion, due to disruption, a 1Fxx special was arranged from Edinburgh to Glasgow Central, however 2Fxx headcodes were Scotrail Argyle Line services. So the Mark 4 set was signalled somewhere it was not meant to go.....

 

I meant to quantify my initial info.

This was from the 1970s and presumably into the 1980s (from the front of a couple of WTTs i have).

Also at this time you probably wouldn't have any extras or specials coded 1Txx as that was the ScR internal destination letter for Glasgow Queen St.

That is, apart from the Edin-Glas push-pulls which were, oddly enough 1Oxx!

i think inter-regional trains and specials etc. were probably the only trains which displayed the full headcode - internal ScR trains would often just have the train classification number.

Edited February 14, 2022 by keefer

[w124bob]

13 hours ago, anroar53 said:

At one time 'T' was used for Special Excursion trains operating wholly within the London Midland Region. 'Z' was used for Inter-regional Specials. A Special that originated in the former LM areas might briefly cross into Eastern or Western areas, and subsequently warrant a 'Z' rather than 'T'. The 'T' was also used by local Trip freights. 'Z' also got used for other Specific trains like the Weedkiller and Speeno Rail grinder.

Thanks, this makes the most sense to me, the difference between a special within the LM and one going inter region. It's funny I drove trains for 40 years and never really took much notice other than was what on the drivers diagramme , STN or TOPS list. Trips or targets were an everyday part of railway working and to this day I still recall a few, T85 was the Mantle lane Bardon Hill trip working. T46 was the Manchester Victoria bank engine. On the LM G was the Birmingham area, 6G21,  being a Mantle lane Rugeley back in my early railway career. My experience was Z being used for anything odd, I worked from Picc down to Birmingham one Saturday it was chaos so we were completely out of the time table, 220x2 running as 1Z**. Earlier in my career I came in after a day of RMT strikes once. The Cawoods, Ellesmere port Immingham was dumped at Stanlow so I ran light engine (cl56) picked up the train and we ran as a 6Z**. Just a normal working on the wrong day . It's worth noting that in very short notice running the signaller doesn't always know what exactly the train is, he's relying on the TOC control for some information. My experience was that XC were not always best at passing on info to NR. It was always worth giving the panel manager a ring direct if units were doubled up at short notice, saved a lot of hassle when a pair of 221's are running vice a 4car!

Edited February 14, 2022 by w124bob

[Railfreight1998]

4 hours ago, Steadfast said:

Yep Z is still used for short term flows, new schedules or perhaps a schedule several hours after the booked due to disruption, instead of running late in the original one (eg a 6Z66 instead of a late running 6V66)

 

Jo

Some examples:

 

14/6/21

 

70813 working 6Z84, an additional loaded calcium carbonate working from Waterloo quay to Workington, though this still runs most Mondays under the same code.

 

47854 hauling SB Rail's DR73915 with square wheels as 6Z47.

[The Stationmaster]

11 hours ago, Railfreight1998 said:

Some examples:

 

14/6/21

 

70813 working 6Z84, an additional loaded calcium carbonate working from Waterloo quay to Workington, though this still runs most Mondays under the same code.

 

The convention we always used to apply on the WR was that an 'ordinary'  freight train ran as a 'Z' until it was published in the WTT or (when we used them) a supplement.  (Except as mentioned previously where on the WR they used an MAP path even if teh timings were only published on a Notice).

[luckymucklebackit]

Couple of years ago I was coming home to Glasgow from London, one of those days when high winds resulted in a blanket 50mph maximum speed as far as Crewe.  I was tracking my train on Tracksy and we were showing as the regular 9S60 service but approaching Preston there was some confusion, initially the train manager told us that this train would terminate at Preston due to the very late running by this time but just as we were arriving we were told to stay put as there was a change of plan and the train would run through to Glasgow, with pax joining us from another service that had been terminated there.  As we left the station Tracksy showed us now running as 9Z60 which remained the train descripton to Glasgow.

 

Jim

[brushman47544]

3 minutes ago, luckymucklebackit said:

Couple of years ago I was coming home to Glasgow from London, one of those days when high winds resulted in a blanket 50mph maximum speed as far as Crewe.  I was tracking my train on Tracksy and we were showing as the regular 9S60 service but approaching Preston there was some confusion, initially the train manager told us that this train would terminate at Preston due to the very late running by this time but just as we were arriving we were told to stay put as there was a change of plan and the train would run through to Glasgow, with pax joining us from another service that had been terminated there.  As we left the station Tracksy showed us now running as 9Z60 which remained the train descripton to Glasgow.

 

Jim

 

Had a similar scare with a flight home a few years ago. Having checked in the day before, I went to check the tracking on the inbound flight and it showed as not existing. Turned out they'd added a 1 to the flight number because the aircraft type had changed but otherwise everything was the same.

[APOLLO]

T also was used for test trains from Crewe Works back in the 60's.

 

Here are two brand new D400'ers on Crewe works around 1968/9. 1T60 was the test train headcode back then, usually up to Carlisle over Shap.

 

 

Another brand new Blue EE type1 on a 1T60 southbound passing Springs Branch around 1967

 

 

Next negative, Black 5's on Springs Branch, one with an interesting chalked headcode.

 

 

Yet another 1T60, summer 1966 again southbound at Rylands Sidings just north of Wigan.

 

 

Brit15

[Mike_Walker]

17 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I wonder if it was because if the electro-mechanical train describers used on the WR where a 'W' would have been a bit more awkward to arrange that a nice simple 'V' - but whatever the reason it was there from the inception.

Mike is spot on.  When the 4-character train describers were introduced on the WR in 1958, Sodeco mechanical rotating drum displays were used which were only capable of displaying ten characters per drum, 0-9 or ten letters.  W could not be displayed as there simply wasn't enough room on the drum.  The exact letters used differed in different parts of the WR and were initially drawn from the following:

A   Trains to the London Division.

B   Trains to the Bristol Division.

C   Trains to the Cardiff Division.

D   Express freight, livestock or perishables train with the automatic brake operational on at least one third of the train.

E   Trains to Eastern Region.

H   Trains to Birmingham or Worcester.

J     Trains to Chester or Oswestry.

M   Trains to Midland Region.

N   Trains to North Eastern Region.

O   Trains to Southern Region.

S    Trains to Scottish Region.

T    Trains to Newport or Gloucester

V    Trains into Western Region.

X    Royal trains, out-of-gauge trains or other such eXceptional working.

Z    Special working not included in the WTT.

 

The system was adopted nationwide (except for the Southern) in 1961 when it underwent some changes.  By 1962 the WR system was:

A   London Division.

B   Bristol Division.

C   Exeter and Plymouth Districts.

E   to Eastern Region.

F   Swansea District.

H   Birmingham and Gloucester Districts.

J     Shrewsbury District.

M   to Midland Region.

N   to North Eastern Region.

O   to Southern Region.

S    to Scottish Region.

T    Newport and Cardiff Districts.

V    to Western Region.

X    Inter-Regional excursion, military and special trains.

Z    Excursion, military and special trains working within the WR.

 

Each Region had its own variations and initially several local services ended with what amounted to a "route number"; for example, on the Marlow Branch all trains in both directions ran as 2A40.

 

The system had to be expanded with the introduction of CSR (Cab Secure Radio) and GSM-R.  These use the train headcode as what is in effect the "telephone number" by which the signaller contacts the train; the driver inputs the headcode into the radio as part of the cab set-up procedure.  As a result, this requires every train or light engine movement to be given a unique headcode which is not repeated within a given operating area in a 24 hour period.  The same headcode can be used for multiple trains provided they are operating in different parts of the country in areas which do not overlap.  Taking the Marlow branch as an example once more, the trains are now 2B02 - 2B72 down and 2B03 - 2B73 for up trains.  Here B stands for Bourne End whereas on the GWML it stands for trains to Swansea but as these are all class 1s there is no conflict on the Slough signaller's screen at the TVSC.

 

The WR turn-push eNtrance-eXit panels were all originally equipped with Sodeco displays but they were replaced dot-matrix LED displays in the original panel apertures.  Later still, the LEDs were replaced by VDU panels except at Bristol and Cardiff.

 

At Didcot, Swindon Panel currently has VDU displays but we are planning to replace part of the panel with both LED and Sodeco displays.

 

[melmerby]

We had a 1Z99 Thunderbird on the ECML today

 

1Y84 York - KX (91105 powering) failed north of Newark.

66795 was sent as 1Z99 from Doncaster to assist the train forward to Newark North Gate where it terminated 194 late.

[Shropshire Lad]

T is also used when two trains would otherwise have the same headcode. For example XX.45  Cardiff to Nottingham is delayed for whatever reason and retains its 1MXX headcode. A spare unit ( if available) takes over it's XX.49 departure from Birmingham and retains the same number but becames 1TXX. 

This is also the cause of Schroedinger's train in timetable apps as the XX.49 is both cancelled and running

[The Stationmaster]

22 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

.

 

At Didcot, Swindon Panel currently has VDU displays but we are planning to replace part of the panel with both LED and Sodeco displays.

 

And then go barmy listening to the darned thing 'chattering' and watching headcodes change as the numbers step up from berth to berth because some drums are a  little less fee moving or whatever than others.   Busy WR panel 'boxes could be very noisy places with those things chattering away

[Mike_Walker]

51 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

And then go barmy listening to the darned thing 'chattering' and watching headcodes change as the numbers step up from berth to berth because some drums are a  little less fee moving or whatever than others.   Busy WR panel 'boxes could be very noisy places with those things chattering away

Yup, but many signalmen actually missed the background noise when they were changed to LEDs.

[rodent279]

As an aside, purely out of interest, were Nixie tubes or Minitron displays ever used in panels?

[The Stationmaster]

29 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

As an aside, purely out of interest, were Nixie tubes or Minitron displays ever used in panels?

I'm sure that I've seen a photo of small tubes used for a TD display but I'm not sure if it was just some sort of test job or if they were actually installed - I suspect they were simply some sort of test.  Didn't some of them require a fairly high voltage which might account for them not being used?

[Michael Hodgson]

I have read somewhere that miniature cathode ray tubes were used on early NX panels but were later replaced with LED displays like these

 

[rodent279]

16 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I'm sure that I've seen a photo of small tubes used for a TD display but I'm not sure if it was just some sort of test job or if they were actually installed - I suspect they were simply some sort of test.  Didn't some of them require a fairly high voltage which might account for them not being used?

Nixie tubes would have required a medium voltage, in the 150-200v range. Minitrons are a series of small filaments arranged like a 7 segment LED display, and would need 5-12v, although they'd use more current than an LED display.

[anroar53]

7 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I have read somewhere that miniature cathode ray tubes were used on early NX panels but were later replaced with LED displays like these

 

 

We had Cathode Ray Train Describers at Euston PSB through the 1970s, although I think they were changed to LED types later on ? The emissions from these Cathode tubes were capable of being picked up by TV Licence Detector Vans, prompting a visit from said authority. [ Probably not helped by the fact that the Security Wardens had a 'covert' TV set in use occasionally :-) ]

[Michael Hodgson]

I wonder who they would summons if they had spotted your unauthorised TV set - BR or the security warden watching it?

 

I have seen a number of claims that those detector vans didn't work but relied on the address database and the assumption that everybody has a set especially if there's an aerial on the roof, and that detector evidence has never been used in court.  I once had a bloke knock on my back door saying he was from the TV licencing (no van), but instead of asking to see my licence he looked at the sheaf of headed paperwork in his hand and said "Oh sorry, I haven't got one for you" and left again!  I wonder what that says about my neighbours? 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

21 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I wonder who they would summons if they had spotted your unauthorised TV set - BR or the security warden watching it?

 

I have seen a number of claims that those detector vans didn't work but relied on the address database and the assumption that everybody has a set especially if there's an aerial on the roof, and that detector evidence has never been used in court.  I once had a bloke knock on my back door saying he was from the TV licencing (no van), but instead of asking to see my licence he looked at the sheaf of headed paperwork in his hand and said "Oh sorry, I haven't got one for you" and left again!  I wonder what that says about my neighbours? 

 

 

They used to work off telephone numbers as well - one of our signal boxes had a GPO/BT 'phone and had regular visits from the TV detector people although no tv set was ever used there (unlike certain other signal boxes  )

[rodent279]

11 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I have read somewhere that miniature cathode ray tubes were used on early NX panels but were later replaced with LED displays like these

 

When you say cathode ray tubes, do you mean vfd's (vacuum florescent displays)?

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_fluorescent_display

[Michael Hodgson]

8 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

When you say cathode ray tubes, do you mean vfd's (vacuum florescent displays)?

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_fluorescent_display

I never saw them - only read about it somewhere - I assumed they meant something that looked like a miniature monchrome TV screen the size of two adjacent tiles on a NX domino-style panel

 

I also assumed 24v incandescent bulbs rather than LEDs were used in the early NX panels.  At the time, a lot of computer terminals (VDUs) were only capable of displaying alphanumeric characters and the voltage was a lot higher than LEDs or bulbs.  So, the train describer driver equipment would have been in a different box; in any case they also had to  process keyboard input to interpose the codes

Edited February 17, 2022 by Michael Hodgson