No more Welsh coal for our railways, long live Welsh coal.

[tomparryharry]

6 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

They'll be bulk carriers full of coal, not container ships.

 

I'm fairly sure that the coal is carried in open-topped containers. At least, when in transit. Cawoods? Nowadays, there would be a netting over, if only for transport safety issues. 

 

As far as I can tell, we can have coal, it's just you can't mine it from here....

[br2975]

On 20/12/2022 at 17:19, tomparryharry said:

 

As an historical note, a proportion of the Aberfan Funds were ruthlessly diverted by the NCB; a situation that still rankles heavily today.

 

People might forgive, but they never forget. Prospective coal entrepreneurs would invite rectal examinations  with a pitchfork; sterilisation optional. 

 

.

The NCB were 'aided and abetted' by the administration of the day, namely Harold Wilson's Labour government and the Welsh Secretary, George Thomas MP.

.

The same government that closed more pits than Thatcher.

.

And the same government that closed more miles of railway, and stations than their Conservative predeccesors who appointed Beeching !

.

And despite these  'wobbles' - and Labour's ( Jim Callaghan ) ending  steel making at East Moors and Ebbw Vale................................ the Valleys are still obsessed with the Labour Party

.

"I votes Labour 'see - cause my dad voted Labour, and so did my grancher before him !"

.

Apologies for the rant - I'll save you from my views on The Senedd and the Welsh Assembly Government - soapbox now safely stowed !

.

.

Edited May 19, 2023 by br2975

[RedgateModels]

it's not all bad for Welsh coal, maybe ...

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd1rp7399q8o

[jjb1970]

1 hour ago, tomparryharry said:

 

I'm fairly sure that the coal is carried in open-topped containers. At least, when in transit. Cawoods? Nowadays, there would be a netting over, if only for transport safety issues. 

 

As far as I can tell, we can have coal, it's just you can't mine it from here....

 

I was thinking about ships. Coal is carried in bulk, in bulk carriers. Container ships are volume carriers, not weight carriers. They're optimized for volume and design assumptions on average weight of containers which are way below the maximum loaded weight. Some bulk goods are shipped in containers, but it is either relatively light bulk like plastic pellets or high value stuff like uranium ore. You wouldn't ship a low value heavy commodity like coal in a container ship.

[Northmoor]

A minor update on this subject perhaps; I believe the last coal train from Ffos-y-fran ran a couple of weeks ago.  If that is the last train of Welsh-mind coal, you could argue that February 2024 represents (in the UK) the end of the cycle started by the Industrial Revolution.

[FraserClarke]

We loaded the last our Welsh coal into the tubs in the Didcot coal stage yesterday - so about 4-5 ton left. With limited running in March, that might just get us to Easter; though I suspect that long weekend may see us onto the next lot, which is Polish...

 

We've saved a big lump of Welsh for the museum! 

 

[br2975]

In 1964 I stood here and watched Cardiff East Dock pannier tank, 3790 shunting coal wagons in Ely coal yard.

.

Little did I think then that exactly 60 years later, on 23rd. February 2024,  I'd be stood in the same spot to watch the last scheduled train load of Welsh mined coal en route from the doomed Ffos-y-fran / Cwmbargoed opencast complex to the doomed Tata, Port Talbot steelworks.

.

Greta and her friends may have slept well that night., but a great many Welsh workers and their families would not.

[woodenhead]

NYMR looking to convert their steam to oil.

 

 

[rogerzilla]

Oil firing would put me off going.  It has an unpleasant smell and, at some point, hopefully well away from any houses, the fireman has to clean the tubes while the loco is steaming.  The resulting black cloud is not a good advert for preservation.

[woodenhead]

17 minutes ago, rogerzilla said:

Oil firing would put me off going.  It has an unpleasant smell and, at some point, hopefully well away from any houses, the fireman has to clean the tubes while the loco is steaming.  The resulting black cloud is not a good advert for preservation.

It's an interesting conundrum - I agree it doesn't feel authentic but as they explained, no more UK coal, imported coal is getting expense, harder to source the right stuff and then there is moving it when the world is moving away from that sort of transportation.  They are not limited to one sort of oil, it can even use vegetable oils in the solution being proposed so lots of options and plentiful UK supply and if waste product helpful too.  Ovoids don't appear to cut it unless you are investing in specially made ones for steam loco use and that might be a dead end or even more expensive.

 

Then there are the running benefits over the moors as much less risk of fires being cause as no cinders dropping.

 

I guess it's this or a lot less steam running, more diesels and potentially more engines sitting idle meaning less and less time spent maintaining them to the point they are no longer able to run.....

 

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

It's an interesting conundrum - I agree it doesn't feel authentic but as they explained, no more UK coal, imported coal is getting expense, harder to source the right stuff and then there is moving it when the world is moving away from that sort of transportation.  They are not limited to one sort of oil, it can even use vegetable oils in the solution being proposed so lots of options and plentiful UK supply and if waste product helpful too.

 

There's a lot of chip shops in Yorkshire, so there should be enough second-hand oil, so the NYMR is doing the right thing if it moves to oil firing? 

[RichardT]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

I agree it doesn't feel authentic

Lots to debate about this, but I just want to point out that the one thing oil-firing steam locos *isn’t* is inauthentic, both here and in the USA.

 

RichardT

[GrumpyPenguin]

The environmentalists will not like "resulting black cloud" as tubes are cleaned but hey - the non availability of Welsh Coal is because of ? That's right, the environmentalists.

 

Oil fired steam is still better than no-steam.

 

Have alternatives such as CNG been considered ?

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, RichardT said:

Lots to debate about this, but I just want to point out that the one thing oil-firing steam locos *isn’t* is inauthentic, both here and in the USA.

 

RichardT

Yeah, plenty of conversions before nationalisation, wasnt there a big push after WW2?

 

Apparently it's Vera Lynn that's trialling it first

https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2024/04/yorkshire-railway-announces-partner-to-convert-steam-locomotive-to-oil-burning.html

Edited April 16 by woodenhead

[Siberian Snooper]

I like the idea of the smell of chip oil wafting across the NYM.

 

 

[melmerby]

For main line use they could run them off OLE:

[rogerzilla]

3 hours ago, GrumpyPenguin said:

The environmentalists will not like "resulting black cloud" as tubes are cleaned but hey - the non availability of Welsh Coal is because of ? That's right, the environmentalists.

 

Oil fired steam is still better than no-steam.

 

Have alternatives such as CNG been considered ?

I'd guess the cost is excessive.  "Oil" in this context normally means the filthiest, cheapest "bottoms" from the refinery, known as bunker fuel in the shipping industry.  It has to be heated with steam coils just to.make it flow.

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

I like the idea of the smell of chip oil wafting across the NYM.

 

 

They could supplement the on train dining specials with suitable smells

On the fish & chip supper, they could use recycled chip fat for the loco.

On a curry nights they could serve the chicken tikka masala to the smell of recycled ghee from the local curry house in the firebox.

 

On train dining with authentic smells😁

[Northmoor]

8 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Yeah, plenty of conversions before nationalisation, wasnt there a big push after WW2?

 

Apparently it's Vera Lynn that's trialling it first

https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2024/04/yorkshire-railway-announces-partner-to-convert-steam-locomotive-to-oil-burning.html

When Dame Vera Lynn was withdrawn in Greece, it was oil-fired.  It had to be converted back to coal-firing after repatriation to and during restoration in the UK.

[Reorte]

13 hours ago, Northmoor said:

When Dame Vera Lynn was withdrawn in Greece, it was oil-fired.  It had to be converted back to coal-firing after repatriation to and during restoration in the UK.

Conversion to oil of something that was once oil-fired in service doesn't really bother me - that's part of it's in-service history after all, so doesn't represent a fundamental change from what it was.

[D.Platt]

I’m surprised we haven’t tried Chinese coal  , after all we import everything else from there !

[C126]

19 hours ago, melmerby said:

On a curry nights they could serve the chicken tikka masala to the smell of recycled ghee from the local curry house in the firebox.

 

Put me down for that one, please!!

[JeremyC]

While their locos are smaller, we should remember the Ffestiniog Railway successfully operated their engines as oil burners for many years.

 

[melmerby]

On 16/04/2024 at 13:31, woodenhead said:

Yeah, plenty of conversions before nationalisation, wasnt there a big push after WW2?

There was but it was scuppered by the fact that the UK didn't have the foreign currency to buy the foreign oil.

In 1946/7 The GWR converted some of several classes of loco. (Castles, Halls, 28XX & one 43XX).

All were converted back by April 1950.

BR converted Pannier Tank 3711 to oil in April 1958.

 

Ex GWR 4965 "Rood Ashton Hall" is being converted to oil during it's overhaul.

[Northmoor]

On 16/04/2024 at 09:34, woodenhead said:

It's an interesting conundrum - I agree it doesn't feel authentic but as they explained, no more UK coal, imported coal is getting expense, harder to source the right stuff and then there is moving it when the world is moving away from that sort of transportation.  They are not limited to one sort of oil, it can even use vegetable oils in the solution being proposed so lots of options and plentiful UK supply and if waste product helpful too.  Ovoids don't appear to cut it unless you are investing in specially made ones for steam loco use and that might be a dead end or even more expensive.

 

Then there are the running benefits over the moors as much less risk of fires being cause as no cinders dropping.

 

I guess it's this or a lot less steam running, more diesels and potentially more engines sitting idle meaning less and less time spent maintaining them to the point they are no longer able to run.....

 

This is the main benefit of oil-firing, you don't stop operating steam - which is what the public will pay a premium for - no matter what the drought.  The Snowdon Mountain Railway has never, to my knowledge, had to suspend services.  Converting 4965 is smart thinking if it means Vintage Trains don't have to cancel and refund passengers, while everyone else is.

 

Note though that the Ffestiniog used to run on waste oil collected by it's members and I think, topped up with domestic heating oil when supplies were low, or probably the other way around.  It wasn't bunker oil, that has long been illegal to burn outside international waters (most ocean going vessels capable of using it start and run on diesel until sufficiently far from land).  They converted to coal when the price difference became not worth worrying about and since the quality of waste oil couldn't be controlled, they couldn't guarantee their emissions met regulations.