Hornby Class 423 4-VEP

[royaloak]

I'm left wondering if it is the same Hornby who produce those superb Pullman cars with working table lamps and magnificent detail. Four of those cost less than a Vep and while they also don't include a motor what does a basic Limby unit actually cost?

But the Pullmans are aimed at the steamy brigade, the VEP is only for that diesel/ electric mob so why bother after all when it doesnt sell very well Hornby can say "see told you it wouldnt work" and then go back to doing decent steam models.

 

Now I am not a "rivet counter" by any means (if you had seen the state of my modelling you would understand why) but for me there are too many (big) errors and omissions on this model, windscreen pillars to wide, gangway door recessed too far, buffer height,compartment partitions etc to warrant the high price not even mentioning the cheap motor used, the smaller stuff, bogie tie rods etc, I am not too bothered about but I would say £95 would be about right for the spec of this model, the £168 RRP is really extracting the urine!

 

I really wanted this to be a good model, I work on the former Southern region and already have a CEP and EPB and was looking forward to adding this to them but sadly cannot warrant one at this price mores the pity.

[Oldddudders]

 

Yes, you're quite right. I'll edit accordingly.

 

I'm not doing well in this thread today.

You're doing fine. We all ignore what is going around us - then try to remember it years later! I was SM at Dartford, worked in London Bridge PSB, was Divisional Operating Assistant, yet my recall from 30+ years ago is very imperfect - and a host of things have changed there since. I certainly had no idea VEPs had trodden the Dartford group of lines, yet clearly they did. So you've taught me something - thanks!

[kintbury jon]

Photos of the power bogie. Definitely larger wheels than on the Limby 73.

 

Top photo shows Limby 73 power bogie at the top with upsidedown VEP bogie undeneath it.

 

Edited September 15, 2011 by kintbury jon

[gc4946]

Despite its faults, I may still buy a refurbished version soon. At least many of its issues have been pointed out now and owning one in NSE means I can keep it away from my Bachmann 1970s rail blue era EMUs. Certainly I'll insist on seeing the model in the flesh and arranging a test run before purchase.

I could have held back until a blue/grey version became available next year or so, hopefully the assembly issues will be resolved for the next production run, but unlike Bachmann with their attempts on the 37s, I can't see Hornby making significant corrections to the tooling. Moreover next year's versions will certainly cost more and this time round I have some finance available.

[kintbury jon]

I'm sure the price will come down closer to the £100 mark in the same way that the blue/grey CEP has been offered at £89 recently.

 

Has anyone noticed that the driving trailers have to be fitted in a specific way? The second time I assembled it the lights worked the other way round (ie red going forwards and yellow backwards). It's a shame that only one pair of double white blanks are offered on the headcode sticker sheet, I may end uo seeing whether the Heljan sheets can be cut to fit and stuck on top.

[Ceptic]

 

It looks to me as though you're doing better than Hornby's Chinese workers! :no:

Richard

 

Or even Hornby, as a whole.

[Ceptic]

Mine has arrived (and is chip fitted). Just thought i'd share some interesting comparisons...

 

NSE flashes 4VEP vs 2EPB

 

 

NSE blue 2EPB vs 4VEP

 

 

Cab ends - MJT - Hornby - MTK (on a Lima coach)

 

 

The blue is quite dark but does seem a similar shade to my Heljan 33114 and 47711 - i'm assuming it's lighter than the very dark shade Hornby used on 50002 and 50045.

 

Headcode stickers are an interesting feature but a right pain to fit!

 

In terms of speed it runs faster than the Bachmann units but not by a lot. I have run it as a 12 car formation for about 5 minutes (VEP,EPB,EPB,CEP) and no derailments occured.

 

Great modelling Kitbury Jon

l have to admit, the MJT unit looks the best of three, including the lifting (sunshine ?) roof.

 

Can you tell me, though ? Are the MJT front ends cast with three,vertical, flat panels, Aka CEP ?, or, do they feature a continuous curve, with a flat in the area of the gangway connection ?.

 

Cheers

[Uk_Steve]

I'm sure the price will come down closer to the £100 mark in the same way that the blue/grey CEP has been offered at £89 recently.

 

Has anyone noticed that the driving trailers have to be fitted in a specific way? The second time I assembled it the lights worked the other way round (ie red going forwards and yellow backwards). It's a shame that only one pair of double white blanks are offered on the headcode sticker sheet, I may end uo seeing whether the Heljan sheets can be cut to fit and stuck on top.

 

 

where could you get them at £89? i am intrested maybe getting a 2nd train in blue and grey

[spamcan61]

 

 

where could you get them at £89? i am intrested maybe getting a 2nd train in blue and grey

 

http://www.ehattons.com/StockDetail.aspx?SID=32689

[royaloak]

Here-

 

http://www.ehattons.com/StockDetail.aspx?SID=32689

[Colin parks]

Photos of the power bogie. Definitely larger wheels than on the Limby 73.

 

Top photo shows Limby 73 power bogie at the top with upsidedown VEP bogie undeneath it.

 

 

Yes, the wheels look right kintbury jon.

 

So does the gap between the top of the power bogie side frame and the bottom edge of the solebar. Oh dear! There seems no hope of an easy fix for the height problem then.

 

I had been thinking of using the Hornby 4 VEP as a donor model for making a 4 CIG with etched brass sides. Considering the roof is too low and the cab ends are not right, I will have to have a have a drastic re-think.

 

 

Colin

[kintbury jon]

 

Great modelling Kitbury Jon

l have to admit, the MJT unit looks the best of three, including the lifting (sunshine ?) roof.

 

Can you tell me, though ? Are the MJT front ends cast with three,vertical, flat panels, Aka CEP ?, or, do they feature a continuous curve, with a flat in the area of the gangway connection ?.

 

Cheers

 

Afraid I can't take any credit for the MJT CIG on the left as it was an ebay purchase. The TC was my doing though it looks rubbish compared to the other two - could probably do with some replacement cab ends. I think the MJT cabs are two piece but haven't looked.

[Ceptic]

 

Afraid I can't take any credit for the MJT CIG on the left as it was an ebay purchase. The TC was my doing though it looks rubbish compared to the other two - could probably do with some replacement cab ends. I think the MJT cabs are two piece but haven't looked.

 

Many thanks Jon.

Might just send away for a pair.

 

Cheers.

[Pennine MC]

... the VEP is only for that diesel/ electric mob so why bother after all when it doesnt sell very well Hornby can say "see told you it wouldnt work" and then go back to doing decent steam models.

 

 

I think there's a fair consensus now that Hornby have followed behind Bachmann in wanting a slice of the EMU pie, once the market was proven; whether they've given it their best shot is quite another matter, but I do think it's a bit silly to suggest it as evidence that they're not interested in the D&E market.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Pennine MC

[kintbury jon]

 

Many thanks Jon.

Might just send away for a pair.

 

Cheers.

 

 

Picture of the cabs:

 

http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt/1100.php

[DaveF]

I have no axe to grind concerning the relative merits of Hornby and Bachmann emus; none of them would ever be seen on the Settle and Carlisle so I won't be buying any of them.

 

From looking at my own photos there is frequently a difference in the actual ride heights of coaches within a set let alone between different classes of emu, even though all the Mark 1 variants should be the same. I suspect it depends on the condition of the springs and also the passenger loading.

 

I find it quite fascinating reading all the comments regarding accuracy of shape, detailing and so on.

 

The only way to settle the argument on size/shape is for someone to measure every dimension of every component. As for missing detailing - on my 00 layout I rarely look at stock from less than 1 metre away as I built the layout simply to run trains on - if I want to look at things very closely I'll look at my 7mm scale stock where I can see the detail!.

 

David

[Brian Kirby]

Talking of cabs, i've done a crude bit of computer generation (Photoshop) and doctored an image of one of the pre-production samples. I've moved the cab windows and pipe recesses outwards, added a broader rim to the gangway and brought the inner door forward. No exact measurements, i just wanted to see if the Hornby cab can be improved further still. Of course it took ten minutes on the computer, it will take ten times longer to actually modify the mouldings.

Looking at real VEP pics, when the outer gangway rim is newly repainted, it is yellow. This of course gets dirty and weathers to black or dark grey, making the whole gangway look broader, in my opinion.

 

Cheers, Brian. ( The original image is below )

 

[royaloak]

 

I think there's a fair consensus now that Hornby have followed behind Bachmann in wanting a slice of the EMU pie, once the market was proven; whether they've given it their best shot is quite another matter, but I do think it's a bit silly to suggest it as evidence that they're not interested in the D&E market.

I think they are interested, look at the 50 and 31s lovely, but it does appear they have taken their eye off the ball, or is the much trumpeted Chinese manufacturing loosing its sparkle?

[Ceptic]

 

 

Picture of the cabs:

 

http://www.dartcasti...uk/mjt/1100.php

 

Thanks for the link KJ.

l had seen ihe ad, earlier in the thread, but it seems to show the cab front with an angular bow, i.e., with three flat panels. That's what led to me asking,

lf so, they'll need some filing, to round the angles off.

l'll order a pair anyway, and see what i can do, coupled with some Replica glazing.

 

Cheers, CF.

[Gwiwer]

If it is the Chinese who are to blame for the Vep's problems then why do we have such superb models from Bachmann almost without exception. And what of the much-vaunted Beattie well-tank from Dapol? I suspect the heart of the matter lies in quality control and the checking of details, or rather the lack of those, in a rush to get the product to market. And in a certain attitude I have mentioned above from senior Hornby staff.

[John M Upton]

Just given mine its first run and... oh dear. Because the leading two coaches are light and unpowered they were getting shoved off the line on the points, the motor is pretty lame, the traction tyres are going to have to go as they are causing the unit to almost stall on the curves and the inter unit couplings are TERRIBLE!!

 

Bit more work needed methinks...

[S.A.C Martin]

Just given mine its first run and... oh dear. Because the leading two coaches are light and unpowered they were getting shoved off the line on the points, the motor is pretty lame, the traction tyres are going to have to go as they are causing the unit to almost stall on the curves and the inter unit couplings are TERRIBLE!!

 

Bit more work needed methinks...

 

I've had a similar experience, although I've not had the shoving effect yet (probably because my train set is about 3 foot from the floor and I'm afraid to push it any faster than about half speed - which is about a scale 60mph I reckon). The traction tyres are awful. Speeding up, it crunches the rails, slowing down, it grips too much and the whole unit grinds to a halt. I reckon it would be able to pull more than the three trailers without the traction tyres, easily, so it begs the question why they were fitted in the first place.

 

However, I really like the couplings. Once I got the hang of uncoupling and coupling them yesterday it became second nature. I find they're a bit better than the CEP in that respect.

 

I'm building up a list of things I need to do to "perfect" (!) the model.

 

1. Replica EMU accessories, fit air horns, cables, etc.

2. Weathering (to photographs)

3. Renumber

 

Next job is to start building the rest of the stock for Sidcup - eying up Replica railways 4EPB parts and their powered chassis now! Not quite liking the idea of painting NSE livery yet, but I'll come round to it I think...!

 

Overall, I think you need to see the VEP in the flesh to make your mind up about it. Seeing the relatively straightforward mods people like John have done, and that delightful pencil trick, has pretty much convinced me it can be made to look better. But the crucial question is, would I pay the £120 on Hattons again for another one? Absolutely not. I was not exactly enamored with the poor QC of my model.

 

In short, I'd wait until the first batch went sub £100 before getting another (although to be fair I probably don't need another - the planned diagram working on my end to end will be, as the prototype, quite rare!)

 

The exasperating thing about it all is how much potential the 4VEP had for being a proper "must buy" - there's too many niggles for me to recommend it to anyone else. But people can make up their own minds: I am certain this is going to be a "marmite" model in some respects.

[spamcan61]

I think they are interested, look at the 50 and 31s lovely, but it does appear they have taken their eye off the ball, or is the much trumpeted Chinese manufacturing loosing its sparkle?

 

Then there's the HST, 60, 56, 153, 08 ...In terms of 'trumpeting' then, as I summarised in a thread a while back, Hornby have been warning about supplier problems in their financial reports for the last 2-3 years, and trying to broaden their supplier base. How many companies are now involved in tooling design and model manufacture we don't know and I doubt if they will tell us. This makes it tricky to judge, based on the VEP's issues, whether they are using one design company that is getting worse, or there are now different models from different design groups and different manufacturing sources. Maybe the 60 was designed by the 'A' team and the VEP by the 'Z' team, who knows.

[Uk_Steve]

Thank you spamcan61 and royaloak

 

[Charlie]

I'm building up a list of things I need to do to "perfect" (!) the model. 1. Replica EMU accessories, fit air horns, cables, etc. 2. Weathering (to photographs) 3. Renumber

 

What about fitting the MJT Corridor connections? They might bring the gangway doors far enough to look right.