RMweb Premium gc4946 Posted October 6, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 6, 2011 It appears most of the running problems and issues so far have been reported from those owning the NSE version, but how are RMWebbers getting on with their rail blue VEPs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 I must ask - for want of seeing a balancing of views amongst owners of 4VEPs - has anyone not encountered the derailing problem or poor adhesion yet? Moreover, has anyone else has experienced this blistering of the traction tyres that I have done? Blue or NSE VEP versions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve1023 Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 My intial enthusiasm for my all blue 4VEP has cooled (a lot). I was initially very pleased apart from having slight damage to one coach (Hattons sorted this for me). However I will admit my time was limited so had only run-in the motor coach by itself at the time & in fairness it was very smooth. However t'other half was then in hospital for a while so didn't get a chance until last sunday to run my 4VEP - and it was poor. I don't currently have a set-up model railway so I laid a circle of 2nd radius track and to my horror the unit couldn't get round the circle unless it was going constantly fast - slowish would see the unit effectively 'stall' for want of a better word. I also discovered that the other driving car which wasn't damaged doesn't have any working lights...... I then ran my 4CEP - wow - the difference is unbelievable, especially for a model that retails cheaper than the VEP. I really wanted this to work for Hornby & I was very enthusiastic, however right now the experience has left me thinking I hope Bachmann are watching and preparing a 4CIG (please). Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Welly Posted October 7, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 7, 2011 I don't have a layout but I ran my NSE 4VEP in on my mate's layout and it ran without any problem at all! Mind you his layout has PECO medium radius turnouts and a ruling curve of at least 3ft 6inches! An annoyance that I discovered with my NSE 4VEP is that the front and rear lights work the wrong way round!!! Bad news is that the headlight PCB is soldered to the ceiling lights PCB which precludes me from making any changes to the lights wiring ( or even to do what Gareth ( Trains4U ) did with his blue 4VEP to bring the gangway door forwards ). Unfortunately it appears that one needs to remove the glazing to be able to remove the lighting pcb so I think I'll just disable the lights unless I can find a way of using DCC to make the lights work properly. My mate was so impressed with the Bachmann 4CEP that I ran on his layout some months ago that he got himself one despite not being a BR (SR) fan! He wasn't impressed with the Hornby 4VEP at all! My next 4VEP will be the Southern Pride kit that is in my drawer..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 An annoyance that I discovered with my NSE 4VEP is that the front and rear lights work the wrong way round!!! Why not just swap the 2 driving coaches over! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Welly Posted October 7, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 7, 2011 ^^^ I made sure that the coaches were jumper box to jumper box and I did try swapping the driving cars over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Thats odd then! I know most people will think of this first but sometimes it is easy to miss the plain obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 ^^^ I made sure that the coaches were jumper box to jumper box and I did try swapping the driving cars over. Hi Welly - did you try unplugging the trailer tops and swapping their chassis? I had to do that with my two centre coaches (!), this may solve your problem. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Welly Posted October 8, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 8, 2011 ^^^ No I haven't tried swapping the bodies but I'll have a look at that when I get the chance. I need to concentrate on the roof vents and 1st class partition openings this weekend. In fact I will put some pictures up sometime this weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kintbury jon Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 I must ask - for want of seeing a balancing of views amongst owners of 4VEPs - has anyone not encountered the derailing problem or poor adhesion yet? Moreover, has anyone else has experienced this blistering of the traction tyres that I have done? Blue or NSE VEP versions. Have just run my VEP on its own and in multiple. Have had no issues with derailing, the motor sounds alright though it did slow down of its own accord a couple of times. I have found that the unit works best with the motor coach as the second vehicle which means that the motor is at the fromt of the carriage. It will only go up my hills (just!) if the motor coach is the second vehicle - can't manage the other way round. A blue/Grey EPB coupled up to it sorted the problem out though! One of the red LED's has stopped working for some reason which is a pain. I may have a look at it in case there's a loose connection. I read on another Forum that Hattons had had lots of returned VEPs, and had decided to sell them off cheap in the shop instead of returning them to Hornby. Though when I called them they denied all knowledge of it - shame though, fancied a cheap second one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 Even though VEP is ahead of my era i was trying to think of an excuse to get one when Hornby first announced it. Having read all the gripes about the it, i'm really glad i didn't buy one. If Bachmann can make a 4CEP without any traction problems without 'tyres' why can't Hornby do the same for the VEP. I hope all the problems don't manifest themselves in the forthcomming 'Brighton Belle'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 (edited) I did try on DC and it was better initially but then still the same problem. Chip is a Hornby Sapphire. In any case I lost patience with it - for a spend of £120 each a Hornby loco should work with a Hornby chip ! Also when I spoke to the dealer he described the noise back to me so I can't be the only one that has reported an issue. Have sent both of mine back to the dealer and just received two replacements. Opened the BR Blue one and tried running it - exactly the same problem I have tried two different chips (Hornby and TCS) in case that had something to do with it and run the power car alone and in a set. I have done a quick youtube vide so you can hear it - any ideas on what the problem is welcome (and the sound you can hear is definitely the VEP alone!). As you can see it is running on nearly straight track, recently (yesterday) cleaned. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVWa8JpfCbw Edited October 9, 2011 by pauln Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium gc4946 Posted October 9, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 9, 2011 (edited) The nearest analogy to the 4VEP problems I've came across were the very early production Dapol 150 and 155 Sprinters. They were released in 1992 initially with a self-contained motor bogie without traction tyres, no trailing bogie pickups, all bogies with internal bearings and no weights below floor level in order to model the underfloor engine details, apart from the thin weights between the seats and the floors. Dapol realised early on that they couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding and so they added in their packs, cast weights shaped to fit over the motor bogies to be fitted by the purchaser, it only partially worked in my experience. Later on they redesigned the underframes to accept a weight in a boxed area at the expense of some of the individual underfloor engine detail and added pickups to the trailing bogies, which seemed OK as Hornby kept that setup when the 155s were re-released. I think the problems on the VEP stem in a similar way, a combination of: 1. Insufficient weight in the motor coach in the wrong places, much of it which is only over the motor bogie because of the all-plastic floor and open trussed underframe; 2. Use of traction tyres and possibly also dragging pickups on the bogies; 3. The use of inside framed trailing bogies throughout, which causes more friction than use of pin-point bearings. Bachmann's motored EMUs have a diecast floor which adds weight where it's needed, and on that basis they then attach plastic trussing and underfloor equipment, pickups through pin-point bearings and phosphor bronze strips fixed to the backs of the bogie frames; this combination's proven and has caused no problems. Edited October 9, 2011 by gc4946 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 Paul, thank you for that video. It seems those of us on the rest of the thread are not alone or overreacting in our critiques of the 4VEP's running capabilities. I'm getting dangerously close to thinking it's "not fit for purpose" as a model. It doesn't run, it doesn't look right physically, the choices in segments of the livery are wrong, and it seems a lot of us (here, localized to RMweb) are either outright replacing them like for like or returning them. Mine is sat on my shelf whilst I continue to ponder how to proceed next, but it is definitely going to be remotored at the very least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kintbury jon Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 So what will happen to all these returned VEPs? Bachmann tend to sort the problems out themselves and then resell them at shows. I've never seen Hornby 'returned' items for sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 Have sent both of mine back to the dealer and just received two replacements. Opened the BR Blue one and tried running it - exactly the same problem I have tried two different chips (Hornby and TCS) in case that had something to do with it and run the power car alone and in a set. I have done a quick youtube vide so you can hear it - any ideas on what the problem is welcome (and the sound you can hear is definitely the VEP alone!). As you can see it is running on nearly straight track, recently (yesterday) cleaned. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVWa8JpfCbw I am sorry that you had to experience all that trouble but I am glad you posted it for all to see... (Note: Why do companies never say they are sorry when they screw up?) I once had a Bachmann DRS 66 that sounded much like that, checked the drive shafts but still no better running and very soon would not run at all, I sent it back to the retailer and then Bachmann repaired it - since I live in Canada the whole process took ages to complete - but no one ever explained what was wrong. Not much help i am afraid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John M Upton Posted October 9, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 9, 2011 The last time I heard a model make that kind of noise was thirty years ago, an old knackered Triang Class 101 with a worn out X04 motor bogie and ridged wheels!! At least that managed to pull away under its own power even if you needed ear defenders!!! If your track was covered with snow, ice and leaf mulch then that is pretty much what I would expect traction wise, it isn't. Hornby have very seriously screwed up I fear and if they use the same arrangement in the Brighton Belle which will either haul or push FIVE cars then I fear the worst... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 Have sent both of mine back to the dealer and just received two replacements. Opened the BR Blue one and tried running it - exactly the same problem I have tried two different chips (Hornby and TCS) in case that had something to do with it and run the power car alone and in a set. I have done a quick youtube vide so you can hear it - any ideas on what the problem is welcome (and the sound you can hear is definitely the VEP alone!). As you can see it is running on nearly straight track, recently (yesterday) cleaned. Sounds well. For an early Heljan Clayton at least Seems to me as if the problem here might be on an epidemic level, I wonder whether Hornby intends a recall? Maybe the Clayton experience was more specialist (no High Street retailers involved), but from what I can make out on here it's not an isolated issue, and the multiplying factor for Hornby in terms of purchasers who are not at RMWeb's (right hand) end of the keenness scale would imply there's potentially substantial numbers of these models affected. Has anyone with a VEP also had experience of returning one of the self-crumbing Class 31s? This may provide the pointer for Margate's response, albeit it's a fundamental design as well as quality control flaw at work here, it appears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 I'm debating in myself whether it's worth typing up my whole experience in a polite, but firm, letter and including photographs of my modifications that were required to get it accurate first, and then its running second, and send it to Hornby themselves. I don't know if it would help them, or make me feel better for having written to them directly, but for the amount it cost and the time and effort invested in it, I still do not have a satisfactorily working 4VEP at the end of the day. For those of you who have put up with my moans in this thread, you have my thanks and apologies in equal measure! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 I think that would be a good starting point, Simon. You're articulate and have been very measured in your reaction and response to the issues so far - even to the extent of putting in substantial effort that you really shouldn't have had to. I'm certain that Margate is already listening, is aware, and probably formulating a second stage response beyond the triage approach they have had to adopt so far. If the product as designed cannot be made to be fit for purpose, as any other under the Sale of Goods Act, then they will require a rethink in order to put this right. Power to your elbow, sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uk_Steve Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 (edited) S.A.C Martin i think you trying to get your model working and not giving up on 1st base was a great topic to read and watching you doing diffrent things to try and get it working was a asset to yourself i think the moans are justified personly and i am not botherd by it 1 bit and i sure most or everybody will be the same as me. i think its a shame how much this cost has come to a not a satisfactory end for you and i mean that because i see you have done a lot more that i could of dreamed of doing myself i think you are in your right to say something to Hornby however will end up going on deaf ears is anybodys guess but maybe just maybe it meight not All the best from Steve Edited October 9, 2011 by Uk_Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 I have now tried my replacement NSE version and, unsuprisingly that's the same. I must be jinxed. Another shorter video below (this sounds a little more tinny than the real thing but I think you've all got the gist now ). This train is straight out the box running on DC. What's weird is all of the units run smoothly and quietly at full speed, although the Blue one did slip a bit on curves. Like S A C Martin I am going to write to Hornby and enclose links to these videos so they can see what is happening. I have also dropped an email to Model Rail's editor to see if he wants to write anything up in the mag. Needless to say both of these replacements are going back again; this time for a refund. Paul http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTlVEYAbb6g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Welly Posted October 9, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 9, 2011 I had a look at Hornby's own forum and I discovered that there was literally just one post about the 4VEP! It only complained about some Y shaped underframe wotsit that would be on the wrong side of the coach when the body is put back the correct way round! No reply to that one naturally..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 Hi Paul, sorry to hear of your further problems with the replacement units. I'm typing up a letter as I speak, will post it here later on, if anyone would like to use portions of it for their letters, feel free; equally I'd appreciate greatly some feedback in order to make my points clearer with Hornby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electrostar Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 I've also been following this thread with interest. Like many I had such high hopes for this model. There's a difference between a product being dimensionsally wrong or lacking in detail, and a product not doing the job it's designed for. If an appliance maker manufactured an ugly washing machine then it's up to the consumer to decide if they want to splash their cash. But if it produced a batch of washing machines that didn't spin clothes they would be recalled and replaced. The same should happen here. We can choose to buy a product knowing it looks slightly odd or has a solid partition but we shouldn't be expected to accept a model that move properly. And what about the model railway press? They must be aware of these issues and have a duty to follow up adequate reviews a few issues later with investigations into what's gone wrong. Journalists shouldn't be afraid to answer awkward questions of manufacturers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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