Hornby Class 423 4-VEP

[Gwiwer]

Spot on Ian. I certainly don't think of myself among the "professional modellers" as by and large I don't make a cent out the hobby and don't actively seek to at present either. There are a few who do and who have successfully turned the hobby into a business (or sometimes vice versa).

 

Neither do I criticise anyone for their choice of gauge, scale, theme or rolling stock. All are equally valid and equally a part of our hobby. Just as our personal opinions on them, including value for money and fitness for purpose of the Hornby Vep, are equally valid as expressed here.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Gwiwer

[Removed a/c]

I get where Venator is coming from, perhaps not professional but experienced maybe a better word? What some of these chaps have done to this VEP is certainly beyond what I could do!!

Edited October 18, 2011 by thebritfarmer

[S.A.C Martin]

I must confess, whenever I hear the words "I may have lower standards" or "I'm not a rivet counter" or in this case "I am not a professional" (!), I find myself groaning in exasperation.

 

Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion. No doubt about that. However let's not lose sight of the facts here, as opposed the opinion.

 

Fact: The Hornby 4VEP retails at a higher price than the Bachmann 4CEP.

 

Fact: The Hornby 4VEP's bogies are moulded incorrectly.

 

Fact: The Hornby 4VEP has traction tyres where a similarly set up model, the Bachmann 4CEP, has none.

 

Fact: The Hornby 4VEP does not have the same level of separately fitted detail parts the Bachmann 4CEP has, instead relying almost exclusively on moulded detail.

 

Fact: The gangway has been moulded in the open position at the trailer ends, which is unprototypical unless coupled to another unit.

 

Fact: the corridor partition is moulded solid (minus doors and windows) where other similar MK1 based models elsewhere have the doors and windows.

 

The intimation seems to be that some of us have higher standards than others and therefore are to some extent, nitpicking, when the facts of the matter say otherwise. There are issues with this unit in its design, build quality and accuracy.

 

Just because some people are prepared to accept the model, warts and all, does not make the valid complaints raised in this thread any less so.

 

I don't think that it is being a rivet counter/professional/nitpicky/experienced (whatever that means?) to want a £120 unit whose RRP is in excess of £160 to be, at a very basic level, accurate and running reliably. Separately fitted detail and millimetre precise accuracy aside, the 4VEP has issues which go into a basic question of quality.

Edited October 18, 2011 by S.A.C Martin

[spamcan61]

I get where Venator is coming from, perhaps not professional but experienced maybe a better word? What some of these chaps have done to this VEP is certainly beyond what I could do!!

 

I'd say 'discerning' is probably the word.

[Removed a/c]

The points you raise are certainly VERY VERY valid S.A.C The experienced part was pertaining to the modifications done to the model by some of the members on here. You yourself have been on here for 4 years and have shy of 4,000 posts. You have also taken the task of trying to rectify the VEP (which you shouldn't have had to in the first place) and in my opinion I would say you are an experienced modeler. I have only been modelling fora few months, I haven't even had practice at ballasting track yet let alone tackling issues with a VEP.

[Venator]

Perhaps professional was the wrong word but certainly there's a gulf in what I look for and some of you guys look for. I wouldn't even attempt some of those modifcations shown on RM Web because I'd probably destroy the model (nor do I feel the need).

 

By all means criticise the 4VEP, it may well be valid. The point I'm making is that I don't feel the majority of modellers are that bothered by many of the "accuracy" issues there are. I'm certainly not! I guess it depends on how you judge a model as to whether its good or not.

 

In my opinion the 4VEP is a good model and a very good representation of the real thing.

 

Venator

[RedgateModels]

I don't feel the majority of modellers are that bothered

 

just an observation, isn't it an interesting part of human nature that we always assume we are personally in the majority ........

[spamcan61]

 

just an observation, isn't it an interesting part of human nature that we always assume we are personally in the majority ........

 

I agree with your general point, but given that RMweb readership is in the thousands and there are what, maybe a dozen or so folks on this thread having issues with the VEP then 'majority' may be a reasonable assumption in this case. I guess the proof of the pudding will be whether Hornby make any modifications to subsequent batches.

 

For the avoidance of doubt, I described the VEP as a pig in a poke earlier and I stand by that.

Edited October 19, 2011 by spamcan61

[Uk_Steve]

all i know in the future i will not be calling anybody a pro modeller no more

 

i am on no 1s side but i do think Venator words was just something some of us say "including me"

without any thought and certainly not to degrade anybody at the same time,its more you can do

a lot more then me when my skills are not like someone's else's ie much better braver cutting face ends off, changing motors changing anything from a original model and when i am a newbie in a hobby too

 

but watching this "word" gone into a bit of stir, i now can see why on the other hand why someone doesnt like to be called a pro modeller i wouldnt even gave it a 2nd thought but watching this i know i will not be using that word in the future randomly,

 

1 thing for sure i am picking up so much knowledge on this forum in this short period of time, sometimes very overwelming at times,

 

I only put my 1st DCC decoder in a train last week b4 that time i paid for it to get done

also anybody which could do that was a pro in my eyes ,

Stevie is getting more braver each week with his hobby thanks to this forum

 

 

anyway its gone off topic lets get it back to the matter in hand 4 VEP's

 

all the best from Steve

Edited October 19, 2011 by Uk_Steve

[Uk_Steve]

 

 

UK_Steve: I can make a video of my 4VEP and EPB running round. I have a very, unrealistically steep, gradient which the 4VEP can get about 1/2 way up. I will attempt to do this at the weekend when I get a few minutes spare. Great suggestion!

 

 

Thank you that be smashing

Edited October 19, 2011 by Uk_Steve

[Bouncy Bouncy]

 

just an observation, isn't it an interesting part of human nature that we always assume we are personally in the majority ........

 

Or maybe because most people who read but don't post on this topic aren't too bothered about errors that they may consider to be relatively minor? I'm not really interested in Southern EMU's but I've looked into the VEP after seeing the great uproar here, and people posting that everyone should return their model as its rubbish, and I can't really see much difference between a real one and the model. If it's THAT bad then surely there would be loads of these models sat idle! Certinally not the case at my local modeller and a few Internet giants where they sold out in a matter of days and have had to re-stock...

 

I find it interesting that all the comments are compared against Bachmanns similar CEP(?), yet not compared against other Hornby models. Especially where you mention traction tyres as such a big issue, yet you find them on most similar length models built by Hornby (Javelin as an example)

 

Granted, everyone is entitled to their opinion and that each individual is after different standards in their models, but to me this thread has sort of turned into a "4VEP is poo" thread, and anyone who disagrees is shouted down for it as just witnessed by Venator! No doubt if Hornby have read this thread bang goes any chance for any more Southern EMU or this era models!

Edited October 19, 2011 by Bouncy Bouncy

[Oldddudders]

Granted, everyone is entitled to their opinion and that each individual is after different standards in their models, but to me this thread has sort of turned into a "4VEP is poo" thread, and anyone who disagrees is shouted down for it as just witnessed by Venator! No doubt if Hornby have read this thread bang goes any chance for any more Southern EMU or this era models!

I think it is mainly about unfulfilled expectations. Had this model been produced by a new company, attitudes would have been very different. Hornby are taking flak because they have produced some stonking models in the recent past, and the VEP is perceived to have fallen well below that standard. I also feel the comparison with the Bachmann CEP is reasonable, having regard to price and accuracy - who wants to pay more for less quality? Both are made in China, but while the cheaper model has really hit the spot, even being bought by people who really have no third-rail tendancy, the more expensive VEP is proving to have more inaccuracies, less operating satisfaction. Disappointment like that is bound to generate resentment, when the perception is Hornby can get it so right.

 

I don't own a VEP or a CEP, although I worked and travelled with them over many years. But I do own about 40 Hornby Maunsells, so know very well just how right Hornby can get it. I have to sympathise with frustrated VEP owners on the evidence they have produced here.

[10800]

Or maybe because most people who read but don't post on this topic aren't too bothered about errors that they may consider to be relatively minor?

 

Or maybe they are as bothered but don't feel the need to add to or duplicate what has already been said?

 

I'm not really interested in Southern EMU's but I've looked into the VEP after seeing the great uproar here, and people posting that everyone should return their model as its rubbish, and I can't really see much difference between a real one and the model.

 

Two issues here, both of which have been discussed here at length. Returning it to the retailer is only an option if it is not fit for purpose (e.g. derails all the time, lights not working). We don't know how many have taken up this option. Many people can however tell the difference between the Hornby VEP and the real thing in many detail areas, although of course not everyone is as knowledgable/discerning/fussy* etc as the next man. People who can tell have addressed this 'disappointment' in various ways, from modifying their model to electing not to buy one.

 

(* select as appropriate or choose another depending on your viewpoint).

 

Granted, everyone is entitled to their opinion and that each individual is after different standards in their models, but to me this thread has sort of turned into a "4VEP is poo" thread, and anyone who disagrees is shouted down for it as just witnessed by Venator!

 

Venator was not shouted down, he was merely challenged over his use of the word 'professional'. According to the COED it can be used to describe someone whose work can be compared to a professional (i.e. someone who earns money from it) as well as someone who actually pursues it as a profession. I agree however that in the modelling context we should only use the word when referring to the latter (not an invitation to go OT on this unless you want to start a new topic on the subject!).

[Pennine MC]

 

 

Venator was not shouted down, he was merely challenged over his use of the word 'professional'.

 

Thanks Rod. What's more, he seems to have accepted that with good grace, and also that others have equally strong views to his own. I think that's all most of us ask for really, just a bit of tolerance

Edited October 19, 2011 by Pennine MC

[S.A.C Martin]

Or maybe because most people who read but don't post on this topic aren't too bothered about errors that they may consider to be relatively minor? I'm not really interested in Southern EMU's but I've looked into the VEP after seeing the great uproar here, and people posting that everyone should return their model as its rubbish, and I can't really see much difference between a real one and the model. If it's THAT bad then surely there would be loads of these models sat idle! Certinally not the case at my local modeller and a few Internet giants where they sold out in a matter of days and have had to re-stock...

 

I didn't return my model because 1) I wanted to improve my own modelling skills, 2) the Southern pride version of this EMU is no longer available, and 3) I didn't want to feel "defeated" in that sense. Once I started correcting the physical errors, the chance to return the item was given up, and freely done.

 

I have also made a point of showing 1) how I modified my model 2) reporting on faults and flaws and 3) offering fixes for anyone so inclined, as have other modellers in this thread.

 

I might add - there are several other internet forums where very similar things about this model are being said. One of which has actually linked to a few posts here as evidence for the prosecution, so to speak!

 

I find it interesting that all the comments are compared against Bachmanns similar CEP(?), yet not compared against other Hornby models. Especially where you mention traction tyres as such a big issue, yet you find them on most similar length models built by Hornby (Javelin as an example)

 

I made these comparisons myself a good six or seven pages back, but neither the Javelin nor the Pendolino which are similarly set up are sold as top of the range, highly detailed, models in the same category that the Bachmann 4CEP and the Hornby 4VEP is being sold.

 

They are, literally, train-set models - this doesn't make them bad by any means, but expectations are overall lower. I might add, their pricing structure is very much lower - even with track, controller and transformer - than the single pack for the 4VEP.

 

I'm also struggling to see any obvious flaws with those models, as I said previously in this very thread. The 4VEP has some pretty straightforward flaws. Do the Pendolino or Javelin have their dampers moulded the wrong way round? Are their front ends moulded incorrectly in several areas? The basic "Blue Javelin" class 395 trainset may not have seats in its coaches, but then it is significantly less expensive than the 4VEP which has a sold partition wall in one of its carriages.

 

The comparisons to the Pendolino and Javelin are fundamentally flawed: they were not advertised in the same vein as the 4VEP, which (and this is crucial) is priced in the highest bracket for Hornby's premium models and is, contradictorily, in the same physical design ethos as those models when broken down, with errors to boot.

 

Granted, everyone is entitled to their opinion and that each individual is after different standards in their models, but to me this thread has sort of turned into a "4VEP is poo" thread, and anyone who disagrees is shouted down for it as just witnessed by Venator! No doubt if Hornby have read this thread bang goes any chance for any more Southern EMU or this era models!

 

As opposed his (not very well worded) post which intimated our complaints were simply a question of one's standards. Again, I refer you to the facts as opposed the opinions of the matter. I have no problem with people liking the model: that wasn't my point.

 

The fact remains that the model has a premium price for a spec which you would expect of a train set model; it has some fundamental flaws compared to its prototype, and even some relatively minor but equally flawed livery applications too.

 

Whether we all agree on liking the model or not is irrelevant: the model is flawed, moreso than the majority of products released recently. I do think there is a reasonable level of accuracy against quality against price, and the 4VEP does not meet that.

 

If we were wholly more objective on the subject, saying that everyone is entitled to like the model or not, BUT also accepting as fact that as a model, it has problems, then I don't think anyone would have had a problem with either side of the debate in the first place.

[royaloak]

Or maybe because most people who read but don't post on this topic aren't too bothered about errors that they may consider to be relatively minor?

Or those of us who wanted to buy a VEP, read this thread and changed our minds and bought a "superior" model made by another manufacturer and so do not have the "experience" of running a VEP.

Edited October 19, 2011 by royaloak

[Venator]

_{I think Bouncy Bouncy makes some very valid points, especially that this is rapidly degenerating into a "4VEP is poo forum". My aim was simply to voice that I (and others) consider the 4VEP to be a good model. Other than minor accuracy issues and people's dislike of traction tyres I don't see a convincing argument as to why this seen as a disaster model. People's experiences of their 4VEPs may be different than mine (particularly in terms of reliability and performance) but that suggests a quality control issue rather than a fundamental design flaw.}

 

_{SAC Martin: I haven't seen Hornby promoting the VEP as a "top range model", certainly they've stuck it in the "ordinary" category i.e not Railroad. I may be wrong but I didn't see a "superdetailed" sign on the box. Also, considering they priced a Class 60 at £103 recently I'd say £120 for a 4 coach EMU is a good price!}

_{The 395 was Hornby's flagship model and I paid a similar amount for the 4VEP as I did the 395 (so expected similar standards).}

 

_{Royaloak: There isn't a superior model from a different manufacturer because Bachmann have modelled a blue & grey / green 4CEP whilst Hornby are modeling an BR Blue / NSE liveried 4VEP. If Bachmann were to release a refurbished 4CEP in NSE livery I'd buy it.}

 

I'm enjoying the discussion,

 

Venator

Edited October 20, 2011 by Mod6
Font size adjusted for legibility

[Ceptic]

 

Snip.....I might add - there are several other internet forums where very similar things about this model are being said. One of which has actually linked to a few posts here as evidence for the prosecution, so to speak!.....Snip

 

 

Which begs the question, 'Are Hornby listening ?'

 

How many times did Bachmann Europe go back to the drawing board / toolroom ?, after many observational comments / complaints, before they were perceived, by the majority of their Cl.37 customers, to have got the thing right. Was it two or three times?.

l would imagine this improvement boosted the sales of said model considerably.

 

Somehow, l don't see Hornby doing this.

 

From a personal point of view, their company motto is coming across as 'Etiam vel massa id' : translates to 'Like it or lump it'.

 

P.S.

l rather like being mistaken for a professional, quite a compliment.

But did Venator really think that l got paid for posting on here ???

[metadyneman]

I think if you look at this model from a general point of view then even if you are not a rivet counter (which as I have intimated in my previous post am not!) it is still lacking in the performance it needs to do the job. Admittedly I only have one of these beasts - and in my madness will probably buy another one - but judging by the running experiences of those who have bothered to explain them on here together with my own, I am not alone in experiencing problems with it. Most ofwhich are not quite niggly enough to return it to Hornby but sufficiently aggravating to make a complaint and ensure that Hornby are at least aware of the problems. I consider myself an accomplished modeller, neither expert nor beginner (I've been at it for at least 40 of my 51 years!) and have waited the best part of my entire modelling life for someone to produce a decent SR EMU. My prayers were answered by Bachmann and the promise of more from Hornby has been excitedly awaited in the form of this VEP. I can only describe my feelings and verdict on this model from Hornby in one word. Disappointed!

 

This is not a "VEP is poo" topic nor is it a topic to discuss whether we are experts or beginners. It is one to discuss the good and bad points of the VEP and I think we may be getting wrapped up in the age old argument of those who want huge amounts of detail over those who prefer them to run without fault which gets argued over from a scale model blade of grass to the biggest of layouts in the world. Sadly the VEP doesn't run excellently without a lot of mollycoddling to get it going properly, that is it's most fundamentally important fault which needs modifying without question. The price is not bad when you consider you are effectievly buying a reasonably detailed loco and three coaches with interior lights but that ain't any good if the loco is naff which in the case of the VEP it is!

 

I rest my case!

[Pennine MC]

...If it's THAT bad then surely there would be loads of these models sat idle! Certinally not the case at my local modeller and a few Internet giants where they sold out in a matter of days and have had to re-stock...

 

...

 

No doubt if Hornby have read this thread bang goes any chance for any more Southern EMU or this era models!

 

Talking of convincing arguments, I really can't ignore the screaming contradiction in those two passages...if they're selling that well, why wouldnt they do further models?

 

 

 

If we were wholly more objective on the subject, saying that everyone is entitled to like the model or not, BUT also accepting as fact that as a model, it has problems, then I don't think anyone would have had a problem with either side of the debate in the first place.

 

Possibly the most telling comment you've made, Simon. Even now, the pro-VEP attitude seems to be coming across as pretty blinkered; the fact that some buyers seem to have trouble-free models shouldn't be allowed to invalidate the complaints by those who don't. And that applies regardless of whatever the proportion of each camp is.

 

I appreciate this is a very long thread but - as ever in such cases - I do have to wonder if the more recent entrants have fully digested its earlier content

Edited October 19, 2011 by Pennine MC

[Welly]

I have nicknamed the Hornby 4VEP "Pimples" due to the underscale roof vents! Mind you, they ARE in the right places on the roofs!

 

[Venator]

 

Possibly the most telling comment you've made, Simon. Even now, the pro-VEP attitude seems to be coming across as pretty blinkered; the fact that some buyers seem to have trouble-free models shouldn't be allowed to invalidate the complaints by those who don't. And that applies regardless of whatever the proportion of each camp is.

 

I appreciate this is a very long thread but - as ever in such cases - I do have to wonder if the more recent entrants have fully digested its earlier content

 

PennineMC: If you had ready my first post you would know that I have been following this forum since the beginning of the thread. Bouncy bouncy made the point about people being shouted down. PennineMC, accusing others of being blinkered sounds like it to me!

 

Metadyneman: You say this an oppurtunity to talk about the good and bad points of the 4VEP but I think this has degenerated into a purely making the bad points forum. I want to put a positive view in, to counter balance all of the negativity and its starting to feel like anything positive said about the 4VEP is offensive.

 

 

P.S.

l rather like being mistaken for a professional, quite a compliment.

But did Venator really think that l got paid for posting on here ???

 

No I didn't think that. I used the word professional to describe those accomplished at model railwaying. Again i will repeat that it may not have been the right word. However despite the apparently erroneous use of the word people seemed to know what i meant!

[Guest oldlugger]

Or maybe because most people who read but don't post on this topic aren't too bothered about errors that they may consider to be relatively minor? I'm not really interested in Southern EMU's but I've looked into the VEP after seeing the great uproar here, and people posting that everyone should return their model as its rubbish, and I can't really see much difference between a real one and the model. If it's THAT bad then surely there would be loads of these models sat idle! Certinally not the case at my local modeller and a few Internet giants where they sold out in a matter of days and have had to re-stock...

 

I find it interesting that all the comments are compared against Bachmanns similar CEP(?), yet not compared against other Hornby models. Especially where you mention traction tyres as such a big issue, yet you find them on most similar length models built by Hornby (Javelin as an example)

 

Granted, everyone is entitled to their opinion and that each individual is after different standards in their models, but to me this thread has sort of turned into a "4VEP is poo" thread, and anyone who disagrees is shouted down for it as just witnessed by Venator! No doubt if Hornby have read this thread bang goes any chance for any more Southern EMU or this era models!

 

Or for sale as used items on Ebay at drastically reduced prices. To date there are none.

 

Cheers

Simon

 

Actually there is one; the first I've seen (maybe an RMweb person selling it?):-

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-R2946-BR-4-VEP-Class-423-EMU-BR-Blue-/220875751677?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item336d3880fd

Edited October 19, 2011 by oldlugger

[S.A.C Martin]

All I will say now is that I think the comment "this is turning into a VEP is poo" is wholly unnecesary, rather infantile and most importantly, simply not true.

 

Overall I think "we" on the unhappy side of the spectrum have been remarkably restrained in our responses.

 

I await responses to my written, considered letters. I considered all sides of the debate and also my own misgivings after tackling both several QC issues and the aforementioned inaccuracies.

[Gwiwer]

I don't have a Vep and neither have I yet seen a finished model. The closest I have come is discussing the test shots with Simon Kohler at a show a year or so ago.

 

This thread is debating the varied qualities of the Vep as found by a number of members here who might be considered as a representative sample of the more serious modeller as opposed to the buyers who may purchase anything simply because Little Jimmy wants a train set.

 

I have found it sufficiently informed and balanced, backed by hard evidence from the real thing, that I was able to make the decision to not purchase a Vep. I always considered the issues known at the pre-production stage might weight heavily in that decision, not least the motor style and position and the solid interior walls, and those who have access to the real thing (both real and model) have been able to support my personal opinion that the Vep is not the best model Hornby has made by a long way.

 

It's a long topic with opinions in all shades of grey and all are equally valid. But it is through discussions such as these that others are able to learn, be kept informed and perhaps the manufacturers understand why their efforts (not to mention a large amount of investment capital) have not, in the opinion of a fair number of us here, brought forth what had been hoped for.

 

There is no place here for criticism or attack on a personal level but long live open and informed debate be it on Veps or any other subject.