Scotland railway locomotive - was it real?

[nightstar.train]

I bought the sign pictured below as part of a mixed lot at auction. I’m wondering if this was a real engine, or just some artistic license? I can’t really tell if it says locomotive no 41 or 47, but it’s probably 41. The colour hasn’t photographed perfectly but the engine is a dark green with gold striping. As to “Scotland Railway” that could mean many things. So hopefully the RMWeb hive mind can work it out. 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by nightstar.train

[John M Upton]

Nearest I can find:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotives_of_the_Great_North_of_Scotland_Railway#/media/File:GNoSR_No_47_as_built.png

 

Close but not quite right.

[Steamport Southport]

22 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

Nearest I can find:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotives_of_the_Great_North_of_Scotland_Railway#/media/File:GNoSR_No_47_as_built.png

 

Close but not quite right.

 

Right locomotive, but it had a major rebuild.

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/D/d47.php

 

 

Jason

[pH]

25 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

Nearest I can find:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotives_of_the_Great_North_of_Scotland_Railway#/media/File:GNoSR_No_47_as_built.png

 

Close but not quite right.

John, I think you’ve got the right class (GNOSR ‘K’ class), but the original version. They were later rebuilt by James Manson, and here’s a rebuild:

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/D/d47.php

 

which looks like the engine in the OP. The number and build date are wrong, though. The ‘K’ class were numbered 43-48 and were built in 1866.

 

(Edit - Jason beat me to it.)

Edited May 12, 2022 by pH

[nightstar.train]

1 hour ago, pH said:

John, I think you’ve got the right class (GNOSR ‘K’ class), but the original version. They were later rebuilt by James Manson, and here’s a rebuild:

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/D/d47.php

 

which looks like the engine in the OP. The number and build date are wrong, though. The ‘K’ class were numbered 43-48 and were built in 1866.

 

(Edit - Jason beat me to it.)

 

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Right locomotive, but it had a major rebuild.

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/D/d47.php

 

 

Jason

 

Thank you chaps, that does certainly look like the right beast. I suppose the 41 could be a very stylised 47, but it’s funny the build year is wrong. The artist did a pretty good job of getting the loco right, even got the air compressor behind the splasher. 

[Compound2632]

I wonder of the sign has been cut down so that the words GREAT NORTH OF have been lost?

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I wonder of the sign has been cut down so that the words GREAT NORTH OF have been lost?

My money is on some sort of far more recent piece of work - very much in the line of obviously fake so called 'antiques'.   There used to be loads of that sort of stuff about some years back.

[Nick Holliday]

12 hours ago, pH said:

John, I think you’ve got the right class (GNOSR ‘K’ class), but the original version. They were later rebuilt by James Manson, and here’s a rebuild:

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/D/d47.php

 

which looks like the engine in the OP. The number and build date are wrong, though. The ‘K’ class were numbered 43-48 and were built in 1866.

 

I suspect that the image is that of No 45A as it appeared at the 1925 Stockton and Darlington Railway celebrations.  It was assembled from parts of 45A and 48A and an old four-wheeled tender sourced.  The building dates may have been confused, as a No 35 was built in 1864, to a similar, but smaller, design. The batch of the "28" (later K class) of 43-48 appeared in 1866.

[kevinlms]

What loco was No. 41 and when was it built? 

If 47 was built in 1866, then 41 sounds about right for 1864?

A big assumption that the locos were numbered in sequence. 

[Johann Marsbar]

Reminds me of a similar style wooden plaque on the wall of a Diner in Squamish, BC, about 20 years ago, which portrayed a North Staffs tank loco but described it as being built in "Stock", rather than Stoke (on-Trent).

A pseudo-antique modern production......

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I wonder of the sign has been cut down so that the words GREAT NORTH OF have been lost?

 

Could be right. The split in the frame is a tell tale sign.

 

I have an inkling it's something probably made for a pub, cafe or similar. Could be 1920s or could be more modern.

 

 

Jason

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I wonder of the sign has been cut down so that the words GREAT NORTH OF have been lost?

Here's an idea, perhaps it's half of a matching pair and the first half had 'Great North of' on it and another loco?

[Dungrange]

34 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

What loco was No. 41 and when was it built? 

If 47 was built in 1866, then 41 sounds about right for 1864?

A big assumption that the locos were numbered in sequence. 

 

If it was GNSR no 41, then I think it would have become 6841 under the LNER renumbering of 1924

 

It looks like that number was carried by an 0-6-0 tank locomotive of class J91 - https://www.lner.info/locos/J/j91.php, so I suspect that it is meant to be no 47.  Perhaps no 47 actually entered service in 1866, but the original design drawings are dated 1864. 

 

[nightstar.train]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

My money is on some sort of far more recent piece of work - very much in the line of obviously fake so called 'antiques'.   There used to be loads of that sort of stuff about some years back.

 

20 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

I have an inkling it's something probably made for a pub, cafe or similar. Could be 1920s or could be more modern.

 

Unfortunately there is nothing at all anywhere on it to indicate a date or an artist. The sign is wooden but I just gave the loco a wee probe and it’s a plaster cast. As I say it was in a mixed lot at auction and pretty cheap so I doubt it is terribly old or worth much. I also got this sign in the same lot. It probably is a modern replica, but it’s a nice thing to hang on the wall. 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2022 by nightstar.train

[Compound2632]

52 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

What loco was No. 41 and when was it built? 

If 47 was built in 1866, then 41 sounds about right for 1864?

A big assumption that the locos were numbered in sequence. 

 

The first Nos. 41 and 42 were 2-4-0Ts built by Neilsons in 1859/60 for the Morayshire Railway, taken into Great North stock in 1866, and withdrawn in 1883/5. The replacement No. 41 was one of Manson's Class E 0-6-0Ts built by Kitsons in 1885, surviving to become LNER Class J91, as noted by @Dungrange. The Cowan Class L 4-4-0s were numbered 43-48; they were also built by Neilsons, which is, I suppose, a possible source of confusion. [Wikipedia, citing Vallance and other authoritative writers on Great North loco history.]

Edited May 13, 2022 by Compound2632

[Johann Marsbar]

There is obviously more than one of them....

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/185397818937?hash=item2b2a923639:g:CH0AAOSwIYdiX-26

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Johann Marsbar said:

There is obviously more than one of them....

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/185397818937?hash=item2b2a923639:g:CH0AAOSwIYdiX-26

 

Seller identifies it as a "replica" though what it replicates in unclear to me. An original fake? @nightstar.train says the loco is a plaster cast; it would be pointless going to the trouble of making a mold if one was only going to cast once.

[Nick Holliday]

38 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The first Nos. 41 and 42 were 2-4-0Ts built by Neilsons in 1859/60 for the Morayshire Railway, taken into Great North stock in 1866, and withdrawn in 1883/5. The replacement No. 41 was one of Manson's Class E 0-6-0Ts built by Kitsons in 1885, surviving to become LNER Class J91, as noted by @Dungrange. The Cowan Class L 4-4-0s were numbered 43-48; they were also built by Neilsons, which is, I suppose, a possible source of confusion. [Wikipedia, citing Vallance and other authoritative writers on Great North loco history.]

Just to complete the picture, Nos. 28-36 were new build 4-4-0's, built by Robert Stephenson in batches between 1862 and 1864.  In 1866 the GNoSR acquired the Morayshire and Banffshire Railways, and re-numbered the MR ones as 41, "Glen Grant" of 1859, and 42 "Lesmurdie" of 1861. The Banffshire Railway brought four locos to the party, 2 No. 0-4-2 tanks and 2 No. 0-4-2 outside cylinder tender locos, one of the latter was built by the Vulcan Foundry of Warrington, the rest by Hawthorns of Leith, which were re-numbered 37-40. New build acquisitions re-commenced with the "28" Class, later K Class, Nos. 43-48, from Neilsons.

[kevinlms]

4 hours ago, nightstar.train said:

 

 

Unfortunately there is nothing at all anywhere on it to indicate a date or an artist. The sign is wooden but I just gave the loco a wee probe and it’s a plaster cast. As I say it was in a mixed lot at auction and pretty cheap so I doubt it is terribly old or worth much. I also got this sign in the same lot. It probably is a modern replica, but it’s a nice thing to hang on the wall. 

 

 

I've certainly seen that in a magazine or book.

[The Stationmaster]

On 13/05/2022 at 12:51, Johann Marsbar said:

There is obviously more than one of them....

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/185397818937?hash=item2b2a923639:g:CH0AAOSwIYdiX-26

There were loads of the blasted things about at one time - over-priced fake 'antiques' although fortunately all too obvious that they were complete fakes.  Almost as bad as those 'collectible' plates with illustrations of various locos on them - the last time I saw any of those in auction it was lot of about 30 in original packing and they got no bids at all.

 

On 13/05/2022 at 12:49, nightstar.train said:

 

 

Unfortunately there is nothing at all anywhere on it to indicate a date or an artist. The sign is wooden but I just gave the loco a wee probe and it’s a plaster cast. As I say it was in a mixed lot at auction and pretty cheap so I doubt it is terribly old or worth much. I also got this sign in the same lot. It probably is a modern replica, but it’s a nice thing to hang on the wall. 

 

 

The Liverpool Overhead picture is a fairly well known illustration which was possibly an original poster or advertising card  for the line (although it might also have come as a postcard).  If it is on a cardboard backing the apparent age of the cardboard mhght give a clue as to whether or not it is original rather than much more modern knock-off.  Are there any signs that it might at one time have been in a frame?

[nightstar.train]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The Liverpool Overhead picture is a fairly well known illustration which was possibly an original poster or advertising card  for the line (although it might also have come as a postcard).  If it is on a cardboard backing the apparent age of the cardboard mhght give a clue as to whether or not it is original rather than much more modern knock-off.  Are there any signs that it might at one time have been in a frame?

 

Its actually wooden. It’s paper glued onto a fairly thick (~10mm) wood panel. The Wood certainly feels old, but could be a convincing fake. One side has a rebate like it maybe could’ve been panelled with something else. 

[Michael Hodgson]

I'm pretty sure I've seen that Liverpool Overhead sign at railwayana auctions in the form of an advertising poster.  It would have been very easy to paste one of those to a wooden board, making it look like a sign, but it wouldn't be suitable for outdoors as it couldn't take much weather.  At the foot of my staircase I have a framed modern reprint of a fairly similar poster, but with quite different shipping behind it and quoting the fares for a sightseeing round trip. 

 

The Scotland image immediately struck me as being a pub sign.  Publicans often employ sign-writers to make their signs who  tend to be given a completely free hand artisitically.  If the loco was a plaster cast that happened to be available in the area at the time, it would do much of the job for him!  Neither the artist nor the landlord would know anything about the loco, so getting the number or date wrong would never be an issue - a mis-reading perhaps from the brass plate on the cab?  The rounded top might  indicate it went inside the topmost pane of an arched window rather than being hung outside. 

 

The problem is that "Scotland Railway" doesn't sound plausible as a pub name, so I like the idea above that it might be the second of a pair, the two sitting in adjacnet windows. Or maybe from a booking hall or refreshment rooms, perhaps even with "Cafe" or similar above a third such sign?