British locomotive classes that had members exported or built for foreign countries

[The Johnster]

I believe quite a few British engines were exported to Sodor, but I've always assumed the island was part of the UK.

[Ncarter2]

5 hours ago, eldomtom2 said:

 

15 hours ago, Ncarter2 said:

Class 92’s are also in Bulgaria, Croatia and Romania. 
Bit of a stretch classing the 66’s as a loco ‘designed’ for Britain before anywhere else, it’s effectively a SD40 scaled for the Uk loading gauge, nothing about it was was new. The engine had been in use for many years, the control system also used prior, Irish Class 201 springs to mind. Even the 66 body shell is taken from

the 59. 

Expand  

If being primarily made out of existing parts disqualifies a class as being a new class, then half the GWR classes go poof!

 

I didn’t say it disqualified it as a new class, I was making the point that it’s a locomotive that wasn’t designed specifically for use in the UK, it being a development of a well established US type that had been in use long before it hit our shores, including in Ireland. As you stated, your criteria was based on it being designed for the UK before any where else, then the 66 is not, it was a development. Very different. 

[eldomtom2]

19 minutes ago, Ncarter2 said:

I didn’t say it disqualified it as a new class, I was making the point that it’s a locomotive that wasn’t designed specifically for use in the UK, it being a development of a well established US type that had been in use long before it hit our shores, including in Ireland. As you stated, your criteria was based on it being designed for the UK before any where else, then the 66 is not, it was a development. Very different. 

The specific arrangement of parts that make up the Class 66 was designed for Britain. Ultimately by this logic you could go the other way and call all steam locomotives British.

[Ncarter2]

2 hours ago, eldomtom2 said:

The specific arrangement of parts that make up the Class 66 was designed for Britain. Ultimately by this logic you could go the other way and call all steam locomotives British.

Arrangement or layout of parts doesn’t really constitute a new design not seen else where, however, if you logic is it does, I assume you will exclude all the 66’s imported to the UK, given some have a different cab layout and other nuances? 
Now, the class 70 is a design that was created for the UK, a collaboration between GE and Freightliner. 

[eldomtom2]

20 minutes ago, Ncarter2 said:

Arrangement or layout of parts doesn’t really constitute a new design not seen else where

See my previous comment on GWR classes.

[adb968008]

I dont think i saw the Austerity 0-6-0ST also known as ( “J94”) on that list ?

 

Hudswell Clarke had some “05” shunters in trinidad, though they werent ex-BR.

BR sent some class 126 DMUs to Liberia.

 

Two class 141s went to Holland, but its unclear what happened to them, they were in Rotterdam port for sometime.

 

Class 230 has been exported to the US.

 

Electrostar was built for Gautrain in Johannesburg, rumours consistently circulate that class 379 may follow them, though Covid canceled that, knowing South Africa politics that can always change.

 

Quote

The trains were required to reduce congestion on the Gautrain system until the end of the current concession period in 2026, says Dachs.

He notes that the GMA and Bombela had been forced, at the time, to look to the UK for second-hand trains, as it proved uneconomical to produce the low volume of rolling stock required locally. 

Also, UK rail operators had a number of trains available as they were in the process of refleeting.

“Covid-19 has, however, knocked a really big hole in this plan of ours,” says Dachs. 

https://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article/gautrain-management-agency-cancels-rolling-stock-tenders-2021-02-03
 

I am surprised the UK didnt try to progress sales of 25kv in Africa. A lot of our stock would be ideal in parts of the continent which could not afford “new” off the shelf stock, and which has decades of life left.  its demand gen for 25kv engineering, which could be achieved far cheaper, faster, greener etc on the Africa continent than here. Instead we binned it. 
in the old days the govt, with its trade & commerce links would promote this activity and bring companies together, I guess today diplomatic presence focus is on issuing visas and replacing lost passports.

 

Gautrain is a very rare international British railways success these days, yet weve not tried to capitalise it at all in the region.

Edited June 1, 2022 by adb968008

[009 micro modeller]

15 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Electrostar was built for Gautrain in Johannesburg, rumours consistently circulate that class 379 may follow them, though Covid canceled that, knowing South Africa politics that can always change.

 

https://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article/gautrain-management-agency-cancels-rolling-stock-tenders-2021-02-03
 

I am surprised the UK didnt try to progress sales of 25kv in Africa. A lot of our stock would be ideal in parts of the continent which could not afford “new” off the shelf stock, and which has decades of life left.  its demand gen for 25kv engineering, which could be achieved far cheaper, faster, greener etc on the Africa continent than here. Instead we binned it. 
in the old days the govt, with its trade & commerce links would promote this activity and bring companies together, I guess today diplomatic presence focus is on issuing visas and replacing lost passports.

 

Gautrain is a very rare international British railways success these days, yet weve not tried to capitalise it at all in the region.

Also, I was always a bit confused about why Gautrain, as an entirely new system on an entirely new route, was apparently built to UK loading gauge and so that it would potentially require more stock built to this loading gauge in future. Especially given that the rest of South Africa’s main line railways have a smaller track gauge but larger loading gauge.

[EddieB]

A few examples of early British main line locomotives sold overseas:

 

Kirtley 0-4-2 of 1841, ex-MS&LR, to Gävle-Dala Järnväg (GDJ, Sweden).

Jones & Potts 0-4-2 of 1840/Sharp Roberts 0-4-2 of 1842, ex-L&SWR to SJ, Sweden.

Sharp Roberts 2-2-2 of 1838, ex-L&C/LB&SCR to Cie d'Anvers à Rotterdam.

4 x Vulcan Foundry 2-4-0s of 1866, ex-Somerset & Dorset and sold to Elsass-Lothringen (Germany).

 

A good starter source for such reference is the "British Locomotive Catalogue 1825-1923", compiled and published in several volumes by Baxter & Baxter.

 

I would suggest checking out the locomotives of the Malines & Terneuzen (Belgium), whose fleet included around a dozen second-hand purchases from the L&NWR.

 

Regarding locomotives loaned to the ROD during WW1, Railway Magazine ran a series of articles in the 1930s.  The topic lay dormant for many years, until interest was rekindled as it approached the centenary.  There is some more recent coverage in a book by Bill Aves.

 

I'm guessing you're familiar with Tourret's "Allied Military Locomotives of the Second World War".

 

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Also, I was always a bit confused about why Gautrain, as an entirely new system on an entirely new route, was apparently built to UK loading gauge and so that it would potentially require more stock built to this loading gauge in future. Especially given that the rest of South Africa’s main line railways have a smaller track gauge but larger loading gauge.

I think it was because it was exactly that.

They wanted something that broke from the legacy network and free of interference… politicial, local population etc etc..

 

it is built to full UK spec including trackside fencing, security, structures, and definitely ready for the 2010 World Cup.

The stations are all very modern spec too, especially Sandton, which rivals XR at Farringdon, but the above ground stations are impressive too.

All PAYG card (Like Oyster ).

Trains themselves are 3 carriage.

ive travelled Gautrain extensively across the network to many stations and its given me a few interesting stories outside its perimeter, but inside its an impressive dedicated line, thats fast, modern, efficient from entry to exit and is considered with very high regard, demand to expand is high. It is often used as a stick to beat  Prasa (SA Railways) for its corrupt ways*… “chalk and cheese” is a phrase often used.

* Google “Afro 4000” if you want an entertaining half hour on corruption, mismanagement and what happens when you put a guy with a fake degree and references in a job to select and buy locomotives from Europe, which arrive out of gauge for the track.., not least with spanish language control systems onboard and manuals.. as no one thought to request english.

 

https://www.opensecrets.org.za/wp-content/uploads/Railway-Safety-Regulator-report-on-Afro4000-locomotives-2015.pdf

 

They suddenly discover all the moneys gone in a “front” scam for the best part of 50 locos, with 13 delivered, and 7 of the locos still sit in the factory in spain nearly a decade later. The 12 were later sold at auction (c£60k each) and ended up in Tanzania, leaving Prasa without its management or its cash or its locos…

https://www.railfactor.com/news/riding-high-prasas-useless-engines-find-new-purpose-up-north

 

oh the other 1… they wrecked it in a high speed passenger train crash.. whilst its supposed to be “out of service” for being “out of gauge”.

https://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/northern-cape/train-derailment-prelim-report-released-1907346
 

The story just keeps going.. they left SA, some with under 50 hours usage, highest was 1000 hours, after 7 years.. costing Prasa 2.6bn Rand (about £200mn at the time) for the 20 locos built, but only 13 recieved (+ the various legals over seven years).

 

https://www.theheritageportal.co.za/article/spanish-train-and-other-stories-some-thoughts-afro-4000-saga

 

The last line sums it up.. the deal wasnt just for 20 diesels, but some 50 bi-model diesel electrics ( i think 1 was built) out of those too… had the “engineer” asked the right questions, and his CEO’s questionable tendering with someone who may or may not be close to him, he could have got the AFRO 4000 built to UK spec instead of EURO spec.. which would have given him 20 class 68 and 50 class 88s on Cape gauge bogies at c£10mn a piece, way over market price, and even beyond economics of most UK operators, but without all the drama ever being uncovered or the high upfront payments ever being questioned…

 

But it would still leave PRASA with good locos with dubiously maintained stock running on track which is often stripped and stolen by locals as the railway has no money for security fencing..

 

reasonable summary here, “The Daily Maverick” website has been an entertaining source for this story over several years too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Class_Afro_4000

 

Stadler has maintained silence throughout all this…

but some of the locos are here…
https://goo.gl/maps/KKNLobs727dbMTro7

Edited June 1, 2022 by adb968008

[EddieB]

On 30/05/2022 at 20:51, eastglosmog said:

There were 4 Crampton locomotives built by Hawthorn Leslie in 1856 some of which may (or may not) have worked in Britain before going to Denmark.

I have a build date for Hawthorns of 1854, which puts them 31 years before the amalgamation with Andrew Leslie & Co.  They were supplied via Fox, Henderson & Co., as agents (Danish sources say "entrepreneurs"), so unlikely to have worked in UK revenue service before export.

[Compound2632]

The fifty engines of the 700 Class sold in 1906 by the Midland Railway to the Rete Mediterraneo (which became part of FS during the transaction) are noticed in the OP. As far as I can work out from subsequent posts, this was the largest single export of locomotives of a British class to a foreign country.

[Derekl]

On 01/06/2022 at 14:03, adb968008 said:

I think it was because it was exactly that.

They wanted something that broke from the legacy network and free of interference… politicial, local population etc etc..

 

it is built to full UK spec including trackside fencing, security, structures, and definitely ready for the 2010 World Cup.

The stations are all very modern spec too, especially Sandton, which rivals XR at Farringdon, but the above ground stations are impressive too.

All PAYG card (Like Oyster ).

Trains themselves are 3 carriage.

 

Gautrain was to be straightforward following tried and tested methods and materials. I suspect it was easy to adopt easily obtainable British standards, rather than creating a new standard. It has always struck me that there are no "bells and whistles" - signalling is straightforward and the trains are effectively 376s - even the seating is more or less the same - there are a few enhanced luggage areas. The front end treatment differs, as there is no through gangway between sets, which are 4 not 3 carriage. The first set was imported fully completed, the rest were in "kit" form and assembled at the Heidelberg factory (it was Union Carriage and Wagon, I am not sure who owns it now).

 

Note that Bombardier Transportation was one of the partners in the consortium that constructed the lines, which may have something to do with vehicle selection. There is also a fair amount of sub-surface running and it may be that a reduced loading gauge (as opposed to the usual SA gauge) was attractive - much of the tunneling is through rock.

 

I was impressed by the stations and the ticketing system, although that has glitched once or twice. There are fairly high levels of security, with plenty of security personnel at stations and in the trains, which avoids one of the big problems that PRASA has (had, I suppose, as it isn't very effective at present).

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, Derekl said:

...  the trains are effectively 376s - ....The front end treatment differs, as there is no through gangway between sets, which are 4 not 3 carriage. ....

Last time I saw a 376 it was 5-car and had no outer end gangways ..... and that was only last week. 🙄

[Derekl]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

Last time I saw a 376 it was 5-car and had no outer end gangways ..... and that was only last week. 🙄

 

Quite - the Gautrains are the 375s. My mistake 🤔

[009 micro modeller]

On 01/06/2022 at 14:03, adb968008 said:

I think it was because it was exactly that.

They wanted something that broke from the legacy network and free of interference… politicial, local population etc etc..

 

 

5 hours ago, Derekl said:

Gautrain was to be straightforward following tried and tested methods and materials. I suspect it was easy to adopt easily obtainable British standards, rather than creating a new standard.

But surely if you were going to build an entirely new standard gauge line these days you’d adopt a continental European or North American loading gauge, rather than the relatively restrictive UK one? I think even in the UK the high-speed lines are being built to a larger loading gauge. And (to get at least slightly back on topic) a lot of British-built locos supplied overseas in the past have been built to a larger loading gauge than is used in the UK itself.

[Derekl]

13 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

But surely if you were going to build an entirely new standard gauge line these days you’d adopt a continental European or North American loading gauge, rather than the relatively restrictive UK one?

 

As I said above, I think they simply went for what was tried and tested. SA railway standards are based on 3'6" gauge, and would have had to be rewritten to encompass standard gauge (probably not that difficult, but nevertheless requiring skills perhaps not readily available in the consortium that constructed the line.  Note that Bombardier was a partner in the consortium which may have something to do with the use of the 375s.

It may have made more sense to build using a less restrictive loading gauge, but I think they just wanted to go with what was proved to work.

Also a bit more on topic, many of the South African Railways steam locos, obviously to a substantially larger loading gauge than UK, were built in Glasgow by North British Loco and in Manchester by Beyer. Th early electric locos came from AEI in the UK, also to far larger gauge than UK.

[kevinlms]

20 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The fifty engines of the 700 Class sold in 1906 by the Midland Railway to the Rete Mediterraneo (which became part of FS during the transaction) are noticed in the OP. As far as I can work out from subsequent posts, this was the largest single export of locomotives of a British class to a foreign country.

Depends on how you count the 'largest single export', because the 42 NSWGR AD60 Garratts, must have weighed vastly more! They weighed 255KG each, so the total weight would have been far more than 50 of any Midland locomotive class.

 

OK, I'm being too clever here, because those Garratts, were never a class that could have fitted anywhere in Britain. :-)

[Barclay]

How about the LMS' Armstrong-Whitworth built jackshaft diesel shunters? All requisitioned by the WD and all but one sent abroad and never returned.

[EddieB]

2 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Depends on how you count the 'largest single export', because the 42 NSWGR AD60 Garratts, must have weighed vastly more! They weighed 255KG each, so the total weight would have been far more than 50 of any Midland locomotive class.

 

OK, I'm being too clever here, because those Garratts, were never a class that could have fitted anywhere in Britain. :-)

Under the esoteric parameters set for this thread, Compound2362 is correct in terms of batch size of locomotives owned and operated by a British main-line railway and acquired second-hand for service overseas.  That number (50 locomotives) pales against the just over 400 USATC 2-8-0 locomotives "loaned" to and seeing service on British railways during WW2.

 

Your AD60 Garratts were rather bigger beasts than you credit - between 260 and 267 tonnes (not Kg!), with enough spare parts supplied to make up almost another five locomotives.

[Steamport Southport]

Many exported via Liverpool Docks. Vulcan and Beyer Peacock ones definitely were, often moved by road as they would have been out of gauge.

 

There were two huge cranes even in my lifetime that could just lift them up and put them on the ships called Mammoth and Samson. Unfortunately sold in the 1980s and one sank going to Malta!

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/9187292@N02/2288803290/in/album-72157612365635763/

 

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205158305

 

Glasgow had one as well (Goliath rings a bell).

 

Here's Flying Scotsman being lifted up like a toy by Mammoth.

 

 

 

Jason

[Fat Controller]

23 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Many exported via Liverpool Docks. Vulcan and Beyer Peacock ones definitely were, often moved by road as they would have been out of gauge.

 

There were two huge cranes even in my lifetime that could just lift them up and put them on the ships called Mammoth and Samson. Unfortunately sold in the 1980s and one sank going to Malta!

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/9187292@N02/2288803290/in/album-72157612365635763/

 

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205158305

 

Glasgow had one as well (Goliath rings a bell).

 

Here's Flying Scotsman being lifted up like a toy by Mammoth.

 

 

 

Jason

The GWR had a similar floating crane, originally 125t capacity, but later downgraded to 100t, based at Cardiff. It was mainly involved in import locos (various types for the USATC); it may have been used when 'Kestrel' was exported.

 

[Chen Melling]

In their early years (1850s-1870s), Egyptian railways tended to buy whatever the British (and occasionally French) builders threw at them, mostly in low single-digit quantities. Thus the British observer of the period would have found many familiar-looking machines in the Land of the Pharaohs, some being very slight modifications of types built for the home railways, some actually designed and built for home railways but eventually exported.

The most prominent example of this practice must have been Caledonian Railway 2-2-2 No. 186, (Neilson 850): https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/File:Im1862EnV13-p299.jpg - of which type two more were later ordered. See also below and attached scans.

[kevinlms]

On 04/06/2022 at 00:04, EddieB said:

Under the esoteric parameters set for this thread, Compound2362 is correct in terms of batch size of locomotives owned and operated by a British main-line railway and acquired second-hand for service overseas.  That number (50 locomotives) pales against the just over 400 USATC 2-8-0 locomotives "loaned" to and seeing service on British railways during WW2.

 

Your AD60 Garratts were rather bigger beasts than you credit - between 260 and 267 tonnes (not Kg!), with enough spare parts supplied to make up almost another five locomotives.

Quite correct about the Kg, I think I meant Tonnes! A slight difference.

 

I believe the 'spare parts' were the parts already made for cancelled locos. I think that 50 locos had been ordered, but many parts for the last 8 were already made.

 

Yes.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_South_Wales_AD60_class_locomotive#Introduction

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, Chen Melling said:

In their early years (1850s-1870s), Egyptian railways tended to buy whatever the British (and occasionally French) builders threw at them, mostly in low single-digit quantities. Thus the British observer of the period would have found many familiar-looking machines in the Land of the Pharaohs, some being very slight modifications of types built for the home railways, some actually designed and built for home railways but eventually exported.

The most prominent example of this practice must have been Caledonian Railway 2-2-2 No. 186, (Neilson 850): https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/File:Im1862EnV13-p299.jpg - of which type two more were later ordered. See also below and attached scans.

Didn't the Egyptians or someone, run into trouble with their first steam locos? IIRC the problem was solely caused because they were using salt water!

[EddieB]

13 hours ago, Chen Melling said:

In their early years (1850s-1870s), Egyptian railways tended to buy whatever the British (and occasionally French) builders threw at them, mostly in low single-digit quantities. Thus the British observer of the period would have found many familiar-looking machines in the Land of the Pharaohs, some being very slight modifications of types built for the home railways, some actually designed and built for home railways but eventually exported.

Just a reminder that the Great Eastern Railway Society has published complete scans of the Locomotive Magazine 1896-1923 in digital format on DVD, which can be obtained from their website: https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/home/sales

 

The collection includes a survey of Egyptian locomotive development by EL Ahrons (extracts in Chen's post) from the early twentieth century - among many other pieces of historic interest.