What shade of blue was used in the "Research" red/blue livery?

[Coryton]

Apologies if this has already been covered - I can't find anything but may not have used the right search terms.

 

Does anyone know what shade of blue was used in the research livery based on the blue/grey intercity livery but with red instead of grey?

 

I have always assumed it was the regular BR Blue (monastral blue?) but judging by the recent models I've seen, Hornby doesn't agree. I know their interpretation of BR blue at least on recent Mk 1's is somewhat deeper than Bachmann use, but the regular blue still looks somewhat turqoise to me wherease the livery on the research coach just looks blue.

[BernardTPM]

Should be Rail Blue.

[rodent279]

8 minutes ago, Coryton said:

Apologies if this has already been covered - I can't find anything but may not have used the right search terms.

 

Does anyone know what shade of blue was used in the research livery based on the blue/grey intercity livery but with red instead of grey?

 

I have always assumed it was the regular BR Blue (monastral blue?) but judging by the recent models I've seen, Hornby doesn't agree. I know their interpretation of BR blue at least on recent Mk 1's is somewhat deeper than Bachmann use, but the regular blue still looks somewhat turqoise to me wherease the livery on the research coach just looks blue.

Perception of colour can be influenced by adjacent colours, so blue bordered by red may seem different to the same blue bordered by grey.

[33C]

This was my interpretation using Rail Blue on my double-motored Triang 31.

[Coryton]

7 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Perception of colour can be influenced by adjacent colours, so blue bordered by red may seem different to the same blue bordered by grey.

 

True, but this looks far to different to be accounted for by that - and it still looks very different (and wrong) even if I put it next to a regular blue/grey coach and cover up the grey and red bands.

[Ken.W]

Just standard rail blue as far as l know

And from my experience of their BR green models, l wouldn't pay much attention to what shade of blue Hornby think it is!

Edited June 17, 2022 by Ken.W
Clarification

[Coryton]

7 minutes ago, Ken.W said:

Just standard rail blue as far asl know

And from my experience of their BR green models, l wouldn't pay much attention to what shade Hornby think it is!

 

I wouldn't know if they had their green right unless it was pink or something, but I've got a fair idea what shades BR blue come in...and this doesn't look like any of them.

 

It does seem a bit odd though given that they could presumably have just specified the same blue as on the blue/grey stock, and it would seem unlikely that these coaches are made in a different factory to the regular blue/grey ones.

 

 

 

 

[Wheatley]

The real ones were bog standard Rail Blue, regardless of what Hornby may have specified. Compare with the coach in the background:

 

[33C]

Whatever colour, once the sun and weather get to it, it's anybody's guess! 🤓

[John M Upton]

Definitely rail blue.  Hornby wouldn't know the proper shade of rail blue if it bit them on the rear buffer beam....

[Hal Nail]

Why is it whenever someone asks a question about what shade something was painted, we always get the same stuff trotted out about weathering, colour perception and the degrading of film over time?

 

Just so i'm clear, if I want to represent a rail blue loco, is it best to use dulux moody blue, bathroom eggshell range, because that accurately reflects the impact of light refraction and my ageing eyes on a rainy day through a moving train window? 

 

Or can i get away with rail blue?!

 

 

[Coryton]

21 hours ago, John M Upton said:

Definitely rail blue.  Hornby wouldn't know the proper shade of rail blue if it bit them on the rear buffer beam....

 

That's how it looks.

 

However...while I've seen rather different shades on Hornby models and their current Mk 1 coaches seem to have a rather deep shade of blue, to me they all look like reasonable candiates for Rail Blue. But there is no way that I can convince myself that the Research Livery coach looks anything like rail blue at all. They clearly can do better. I wonder why they didn't?

 

16 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Why is it whenever someone asks a question about what shade something was painted, we always get the same stuff trotted out about weathering, colour perception and the degrading of film over time?

 

Because the above points are true and it is very hard to be definitive about what colour things were actually painted?

[Hal Nail]

49 minutes ago, Coryton said:

Because the above points are true and it is very hard to be definitive about what colour things were actually painted?

I know its true and its difficult if not impossible to be definitive about precise shades - early BR crimson for example.  But if someone asks what colour something was painted they probably want to know from someome who has knowledge of that, not be told it doesnt really matter becuase you cant tell.

 

Anyway unneccessary rant on my part. People are very helpful on here and its a great resource. 

[Nearholmer]

Within reason, it isn’t difficult to say what colour BR things were painted in recent (say post 1970) years. In most cases the specifications were clearly defined, and the information is fairly easily accessible.

 

What is exceedingly difficult to pin down is what things looked like, once painted, because of all of the variables at play.

 

Rail blue, for instance, didn’t vary to a degree that could easily be detected by the naked eye when it was a tin of paint, but by golly did it vary in appearance, even when freshly applied, once applied, and even more so once ‘out in the real world’.

 

A very important, and often overlooked factor, is reflectance, how much the painted finish reflected its surrounding environment. I’m 90% sure that one of the several reasons why many models look wrong is that the paint doesn’t reflect light like the real thing, and they are barely ever displayed outdoors in natural light, which is far more intense, even on a very dull day, than indoor lighting. Which way do the shadows on your windowsill fall?  They fall inwards even on seriously gloomy days seen from a “bright” room. Look at colour photos of the real thing. What is actually in front of you? Very often a reflection of ‘white out’ on much of the livery from the sky …… our brains sort all that out, and tell us ‘rail blue’, or whatever, but that isn’t what we are actually seeing.

 

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Nearholmer

[rodent279]

Add to that, in my experience, few rail blue vehicles ever looked exactly the same shade when side by side, and some works did better paint jobs than others. Sometimes it seemed to age more greenish, sometimes more yellowish. Add in a nice fine coat of reddish brown brake dust, and the end result can be very different.

[Coryton]

1 hour ago, Hal Nail said:

I know its true and its difficult if not impossible to be definitive about precise shades - early BR crimson for example.  But if someone asks what colour something was painted they probably want to know from someome who has knowledge of that, not be told it doesnt really matter becuase you cant tell.

 

I think if someone says it doesn't matter at all because all of the above then they are going too far. But I'd say they are good reasons for not trying to get too worked up about getting the precise shade correct.

 

56 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

our brains sort all that out, and tell us ‘rail blue’, or whatever, but that isn’t what we are actually seeing.

 

That's a very good point. While in terms of what's hitting the eye, colour is just physics, what ones brain actually interprets the colour as is something much, much more complex.

 

But - I still defy anyone with any familiarity with BR Blue to look at the offending coach and not see it as just wrong.

 

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

 Which way do the shadows on your windowsill fall?  They fall inwards even on seriously gloomy days seen from a “bright” room. 

 

It's very easy not to realise just how much brighter light is outdoors (which is why a partial solar eclipse isn't a terribly impressive event).

 

It's quite noticable that despite the impressive sensitivity they have these days, as it starts getting dark a digital camera will complain about lack of light before it has noticably started getting dark.

 

[Hal Nail]

39 minutes ago, Coryton said:

as it starts getting dark a digital camera will complain about lack of light

Not half as much as its owner!

[newbryford]

1 hour ago, Coryton said:

 

 

 

But - I still defy anyone with any familiarity with BR Blue to look at the offending coach and not see it as just wrong.

 

 

 

 

It may be worth posting a picture of the offensive coach............

 

edit: sp.

Edited June 19, 2022 by newbryford

[Coryton]

3 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

It may be worth posting a picture of the offensive coach............

 

edit: sp.

 

I can try.

 

I've been holding off because the colours in a photo aren't going to be a good match to reality and will show up differently on different screens.

 

But I suppose a comparison photo might be somewhat meaningful.

[Darius43]

 

 

Phoenix Precision rail blue on the left and Hornby’s latest “rail blue” on the right - with some light weathering.

 

The Hornby blue doesn’t look right to my eyes.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[hmrspaul]

You are not comparing like with like. One is glossy and one dull - and admitted by yourself weathered.

 

 

[whoppit]

2 hours ago, Darius43 said:

 

 

Phoenix Precision rail blue on the left and Hornby’s latest “rail blue” on the right - with some light weathering.

 

The Hornby blue doesn’t look right to my eyes.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

wondering if the Hornby paint process has the blue oversprayed on the red, may explain the 'purple' undertone of the shade of blue?

[Darius43]

3 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

You are not comparing like with like. One is glossy and one dull - and admitted by yourself weathered.

 

 

Perhaps but, before I weathered the Hornby model, the difference in the blue shades was even more apparent.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Both within the range of ‘realistic’ in my view, although both, and the red, a bit too saturated to look how the real thing does when viewed at “00 distance”.

[Coryton]

On 23/06/2022 at 07:37, Nearholmer said:

Both within the range of ‘realistic’ in my view, although both, and the red, a bit too saturated to look how the real thing does when viewed at “00 distance”.

 

And that's why I haven't rushed to provide photos.

 

And the fact that in my original post I was just asking for information on what colour the prototype was. 

 

The thing is, I'm sure that the offending coach is not in a colour that could reasonably be described as BR blue. I have quite a few coaches and other things that are supposed to be in BR blue, some going as far back as when BR were painting everything that colour. They come in various shades but they all look like reasonable attempts at BR blue to me, even the ancient Jouef Mk 3 I use for clearance testing. The outlier I think is a recent regular Hornby Mk 1 but it will pass.

 

However, the research coach is something else entirely. It doesn't just look wrong next to another coach - to me just looking at it in the box it's not BR Blue. It's just not. Hence my original question as to whether this is prototypical or not.

 

Having said that, since I can't find any other complaints, maybe it's just me. But if the real thing really is supposed to be BR Blue, I don't think I'll be getting any more unless the colour changes.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Coryton
I can't spell Jueof