Collectable?

[Il Grifone]

Ever helpful, eBay thought I would be interested and sent me a link to this item:

https://www.ebay.co.uk

 

Now it is in very good mechanical order, but whether it is worth £100 I wouldn't like to say (I'll treasure mine a bit more!). On the other hand, new it cost nearly that allowing for inflation.

 

The mains cable however most definitely is not safe. TRS cable has a life span of around 25 years. As can be seen in the photo of the plug, the rubber has cracked and it will be like this all along the lead, The seller is right to say it should be PAT tested, but any competent electrician will fail it right away.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Il Grifone

[Paul H Vigor]

As far as I know, there's only one of me. Does that make me 'L@@k!', 'Rare!' and 'Collectable'?? (Asking for SWMBO!)

[cypherman]

Hi all,

I have one of those sat in my box of spare transformers. I also have the additional unpowered unit that takes power from the main transformer.

[melmerby]

Quote:

"THE LIGHT GREY RUBBER POWER CORD IS IN VERY GOOD CONDITION WITHOUT ANY NOTABLE DETERIORATION TO THE INSULATION BUT HAS A LITTLE DISCOLOURATION."

Whoever wrote that doesn't know what they are talking about.

 

1 hour ago, Il Grifone said:

any competent electrician will fail it right away.

Without even getting his PAT out of his bag.

The inside would definitely need looking at to see the general state of the materials used

 

Quote

"THIS CONTROLLER IS IN FULL WORKING ORDER ALTHOUGH IS FOR DISPLAY PURPOSES ONLY"

It's either in full working order i.e. safe to use else it's not safe and only for display, it can't be both.

[kevinlms]

If it is a 'Collectors Item', it should be left in 'as is' condition. If it is intended for a working life, then it needs to be upgraded to make it safe.

 

Something like this with obvious defects, should never be used.

 

In my view the seller needs to clarify that they are selling it as a collectors item only. If the purchaser intends to use it, then it needs repairs. Perhaps that is a service the seller could undertake on request (and a higher price)?

 

Yes, the PAT doesn't need to come out, as the initial visual inspection WILL fail it. There is no such category as 'good for it's age' regarding electrical safety, it either passes the test or it doesn't.

[IWCR]

Careful with some of these old transformers, dont know about this brand but I have found Asbestos insulation  in others.

 

Pete 

[john new]

Would I like it for my H/Dublo collection given the box etc., yes but certainly not at that price. That may be what they are going for in boxed/original condition but it is far more than I am currently  prepared to pay.

 

Would I put it anywhere near  a power outlet if I did buy it - no way. All my old H/D power gear has been display only for decades - one of mine of the type shown had to have the wires upgraded circa 1970-71 when I was still using it live, and opening it up to do that needed rivets drilling out thus destroying 100% originality/collectability. 

 

I know it was circa 1970-71 as it was done before I moved away from Hampshire and that was in 1972!

 

Edited June 23, 2022 by john new
Added an extra note

[Il Grifone]

I've replaced the rivets with Meccano nuts and bolts - about as original as you can get - they even come in black.

 

I have to admit to using the Marshall controllers with variable transformers (and PVC mains leads). The boxed one stays in its box! I doubt it's a prized collectable item, but....

 

Variable resistance units belong on Noah's model railway on his ark, where they came from...

 

The subject of this thread being a case in point!

Edited June 26, 2022 by Il Grifone
finger trouble!

[locomad2]

Have one still use it seems quite good for some older locomotives like triang and some HD, fitted on 12v side to amp meter, grandkids like the arm type controller better than Powermaster round type knob, use these as well,

 

Collectable see loads like it in under counter boxes at toyfairs before covid, picked one up at car boot not long ago 50p ? Not tested yet, plus got a battery one recently too

[MarkC]

I still recall getting one heck of a belt from a HD controller - one of that type - some 40 odd years ago. It all looked perfect - externally - and back then many of us weren't really aware of the potential (no pun intended) dangers lurking within.

 

I still see the occasional similar controller in use, usually at shows demonstrating HD 3-rail layouts. Yes, some may well have had the internals changed for modern gear, but some, I fear, will not...

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

In a similar way that old car radios get their internals completely replaced to maintain their exterior looks for classic cars, does anybody carry out similar conversions for controllers such as these?

I reckon it would look quite impressive using this style of controller (safely) on a modern layout.

 

Mike.

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

 

I reckon it would look quite impressive using this style of controller (safely) on a modern layout.

 

Mike.

There's always this:

 

(Taunton, ex-ZTC controllers)

[Wolseley]

4 hours ago, MarkC said:

I still see the occasional similar controller in use, usually at shows demonstrating HD 3-rail layouts. Yes, some may well have had the internals changed for modern gear, but some, I fear, will not...

 

I run HD three rail, but there's no way I would use an original controller.  I use a pair of Gaugemaster Combi controllers without any problems and, more importantly, no risk of having 240 volts going through me.

[brianusa]

On my O layout, I have Lionel transformers powering points, lights and other accessories even with original cords.  I have used them since the layout was first built about twenty years ago.  For train control there is a more modern solid state MTH 4K dual controller which has proved to be suitable for  my American trains as well as the Hornby Trains.

[DCB]

I bought three of these for £3 from a swap meet ages ago as a friend modelled H/D 3 rail.  Sadly he passed away, but after a quick look see to make sure the mains leads were not connected to the aluminium shell I have been using one for my test track.   What it does have is a brilliant overload cut out, what it doesn't have is any way of running trains below a scale 30mph.     The variable resistor is wound round a ceramic core, not asbestos. / card like H&M variable resistors,   I reckon the best use of them is remover the overload cut out and use it on another controller, save the plug and bin the rest.  The cut out trips around 1 amp and then a bulb lights and still provides some power until you cut the power and restore it again, its very difficult to burn out Hornby Dublo and Triang X04 motors with these cut outs, unlike the polyfuses commonly used  by more modern controllers which constantly cut and  reset  to full load briefly when overloaded or shorted.

[john new]

And when the cut out activates a nice healthy metallic bu-doing noise and the red light. Best cut outs I have ever used.

Edited June 24, 2022 by john new

[Il Grifone]

A nice new mains transformer (and lead if TRS and possibly even if PVC) should make things safe or you could use an isolating transformer.

 

However the later examples are double insulated and Meccano Ltd. were proud of exceeding the safety standards then required.

 

To make them cotrol trains slowly, cut the link across the rectifier and replace it with a switch. This will give half wave rectification. Some motors are unhappy on half wave and get hot under the collar, but Dublo are OK in my experience.

 

To be on the safe side I always earth the layout common return.

 

On 24/06/2022 at 21:20, brianusa said:

On my O layout, I have Lionel transformers powering points, lights and other accessories even with original cords.  I have used them since the layout was first built about twenty years ago.  For train control there is a more modern solid state MTH 4K dual controller which has proved to be suitable for  my American trains as well as the Hornby Trains.

 

But you only have 117 volts (nominal) to contend with with. We have 230....

Edited June 26, 2022 by Il Grifone
Clarification (in bold)

[melmerby]

9 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

 

 

However the originals are double insulated and Meccano Ltd. were proud of exceeding the safety standards then required.

 

 

Can't be, it's got 3 core flex. You can't earth anything that is double insulated.

IMHO It's got a metal case so should be earthed

[Il Grifone]

I was referring to the later examples with twin core PVC wiring. (On re-reading I realise that I had not made myself clear as usual!

The 3 core leads should be earthed of course, but since these all have TRS leads AFAIK, they shouldn't be connected at all.

 

Double insulted do not need to be earthed, but I can see no reason wht they can't be. One of pet peeves is electrical equipment that 'tingles' if you touch the metal parts. I have a computer power supply that despite the 3 core cable does just this

[melmerby]

Double insulated should not be earthed as there is nothing to connect it to and would give anyone doing an electrical inspection a problem as it will be treated as class 1 and will fail it's PAT.

 

As to a PC supply tingling - it's faulty. If it's metal it should be earthed.

From what I have seen they are quite crude inside and cannot easily be double insulated as there is mains potential wiring & components close to the metal case parts.

 

Nothing I have causes a tingle, they are all properly earthed.

This desktop I am currently using has a solid connection to earth. a DMM reads a short circuit between the case and mains earth.

[Enterprisingwestern]

31 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Nothing I have causes a tingle

 TMI.

 

Mike.

[Il Grifone]

Intrigued by the PAt test requirments (apparently you can only have Class 1 (earthed) and Class 2 equipment (double insulated) and our beloved vintage equipment often fails to fit into either category) I came across this;

 

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4229

 

The minimum megohm resistance is quite enough for the 'tingle' effect.

 

The sabotaged radio (if cutting the plug off counts as sabotage) was correctly rendered unusable (if the tester could pull the knob off so could a user). the employer would be responsible which is why privately owned equipment is frowned on in the workplace.

 

However the failed heater backs should have received a terse letter to the effect to put them in order at your expense or hear from our lawyer. As installer,  you are responsible for non-compliance.

 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Il Grifone

[kevinlms]

10 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

Intrigued by the PAt test requirments (apparently you can only have Class 1 (earthed) and Class 2 equipment (double insulated) and our beloved vintage equipment often fails to fit into either category) I came across this;

 

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4229

 

The minimum megohm resistance is quite enough for the 'tingle' effect.

 

The sabotaged radio (if cutting the plug off counts as sabotage) was correctly rendered unusable (if the tester could pull the knob off so could a user). the employer would be responsible which is why privately owned equipment is frowned on in the workplace.

 

However the failed heater backs should have received a terse letter to the effect to put them in order at your expense or hear from our lawyer. As installer,  you are responsible for non-compliance.

 

 

 

What makes you think that it's OK for a tester to go pulling it apart? Unless the knob wasn't fitted correctly - screw loose/missing.

Failing an item because parts can be dismantled is NOT part of the testing process.

Similarly, a guard cannot be removed, if it's securely fitted, then that part passes the test. The fact that the part can be removed with a simple screwdriver, if it was designed in such a manner, is OK.

[Il Grifone]

Possibly - the deliberate use of a tool would lead one into dubious waters - however it would appear that the knob in question is merely a push-on type rather than screwed and these things do have a tendency to come off by themselves.  (Ancient electrics (both sides of the plug) tended to have rather less attention to safety than today's.)

For example, my parents' house in Leamington Spa had fuses (the wired type) with fuses in both Line and Neutral. Guess which one blew! We soon got it rewired!

We had some Italian TV sets* (even less attention was/is paid in Italy) which had the delightful system of a single pole mains switch in one phase and the fuse in the other (if I remember correctly the switch was in series with the chassis, but either is deadly!). They soon got modified to both in the live phase and not in series with the chassis! The prevalence of two pin sockets (What's an earth ?) didn't help at all. (My insistence on an isolating transformer for my workshop met with surprise, as was my complaint that the first one supplied ran warm/hot off load.)

 

* This was in the mid 70s and still monochrome. Italy didn't get colour until the late seventies and then it strted with Tele-Monte-Carlo. They did have the good sense to chose PAL.

[Il Grifone]

I will add no comment to this beyond, "Sticking an 8F body on a chopped up Castle(?) chassis doth not a Black 5 make!" (It's not a Standard 5 of course!):

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk

 

The return crank is the wrong way round. Still if Tri-ang/Hornby* don't know any better!

* How does one descibe them to avoid confusion? Here we're talking nearly eighty years.

 

 

Edited June 30, 2022 by Il Grifone