LNER Sentinel & Clayton Railcars - livery & other questions

[Chas Levin]

Hello all, following my mentioning a 4mm Nu-Cast LNER Sentinel Railcar as one of my next projects, a discussion followed about the livery and in particular, whether or not there was lining and if so, what colours, spacing and so forth.

Mike Trice suggested moving the discussion to its own thread, as it may be of wider interest to people who might not find it in the middle of an individual workbench thread. in the Kitbuilding subforum.

So, here’s a summary of what’s been said so far. I’ve only copied over the parts of the discussion concerning the prototype LNER Sentinel livery, leaving out parts of the discussions to do with building railcar kits generally (such as ideas about which motor bogies to use) and talk about other projects. Apologies if I’ve missed anything out or got anything wrong: @jwealleans, @MikeTrice, @Jon4470 and @micklner, please let me know if anything needs correcting. 

 

Also, if you know an easier way to transfer multiple posts from one RM Web thread to another, please let me know...

 

So, if anyone has any more information about the livery and lining of LNER Sentinel - or Clayton - Railcars, please feel free to post here:

 

jwealleans Posted Thursday at 09:40

Sentinel Railcars were lined with a very fine green line in each upper panel.   This photo (https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=96596) shows it best of the ones I found quickly online.

 

Other point, the HMRS lettering for these is too big.   They did a limited run of 3mm sheets which are correct for 4mm. Your alternative is the revised Fox lettering for Restaurant Cars and the like and see what names you can make from that collection of letters.

 

MikeTrice Posted Thursday at 10:21

Excerpt from a photo of Trafalgar. I have adjusted the image to try and highlight the lining. Looks as if there are also the typical LNER vertical lines complete with arrow heads on the upper beading:

(Sentinel Trafalgar 273)

 

Chas Levin Posted Thursday at 10:24

Morning Jonathan, thank you for the info, very interesting. Looking at that photo it's difficult to see exactly what was done (that may be my eyesight of course). Am I right that there's a fine green line around the inside of each cream panel, or is is a double line? I must admit I'd never noticed any lining on these vehicles before, which says something about the small size and low resolution of the photos I've looked at previously, plus my lack of observation!

 

Re. lettering, thanks for that tip too. I do have some of the HMRS I think, amongst my 4mm stock, and I do also have quite a few 3mm versions of their sheets, but I don't think my 3mm stock includes the Sentinel stuff. Interesting idea to use the Fox ones though...

 

 

Chas Levin Posted Thursday at 10:24

Thanks Mike, looks like a single line and as you say, arrowed-headed verticals on the pillars.

Would it be the same green as the lower panels, LNER apple? Guessing it would be - and come to that, with lines that thin on 4mm, no difference in shade would show anyway.

But Mike, may I ask both you and @jwealleans, how do you know the lining was green? I can't check the Digby or Carter books right now but I'm fairly sure they don't mention the railcar schemes. Were the Camping stock also lined in their upper panels, as they used a similar green and cream livery?

 

jwealleans Posted Thursday at 10:39

Can't remember - either Yeadon or maybe Brian Haresnape's book?

 

Jon4470 Posted Thursday at 20:12

Researching the lining for these vehicles could be interesting! I’ve quickly looked at a number of sources this evening ……and I think I’ll be able to spend quite some more time studying further. 
 

I looked at Yeadons, RCTS vol10, Haresnape and British Railcars by Jenkinson and Lane. Nowhere could I see confirmation of the style and colour of the lining. Then I remembered Big Four in Colour. There  is a photo of Eagle with a caption that says ”the cream panels were lined with a fine double green line”.
Photos in the other sources show this double lining on the front panels and the also on the larger panels on the sides. There’s a very clear front view of Nettle showing this lining. You’ll love this ……the corners are just like the ones on your lovely loco (I.e. internal quadrants)

 

So far, it has been difficult to make out the lining that Mike’s post shows. So, I’m not sure if that lining was applied as well as the panel lining, or instead of. And, of course, some photos look like there is no lining at all!

 

I also wonder if there is a black line between the green and cream…but that might be a shadow.

 

Hope this helps and as I say plenty of studying to do.

 

MikeTrice Posted Thursday at 20:39

The lining shows up quite well in photos in Nick Camplings "Historic Carriage Drawings: Volume One LNER and Constituents" but he does not mention colour.

 

Chas Levin Posted Thursday at 21:50

Thanks Jon and Mike; I have some but not all of those, plus some others that might contain info - I'll start having a look over the weekend.

It seems odd that it's not more fully documented, and that there are so many photos where no lining appears to be present (allowing for poor resolution, colour registration and so forth).

 

Is it perhaps possible that railcar lining and livery weren't as prescribed and rigidly adhered to as loco and coach livery and that some railcars were lined, some not?

 

Chas Levin Posted Saturday at 15:16

Just looking at this now Mike - I take it you meant the Clayton Railcar photos?

I agree the lining shows up very well, but in fact it really does look like there's either a second inner line - possibly of another colour - or some sort of stepped panelling - as Jon has also suggested.

It's very noticeable in the two photos of Trailer Car 2165 on page 58, particularly the three large end panels on the vehicle end facing the camera and the small toplight-shaped horizontal rectangular panels above the doors ('Entrance' and 'Luggage only') in the side view of the car.

Looking at these and then looking again at the cropped photo of 273 you posted on Thursday, I think it looks quite like there was a stepped inner section and the lining was along the side wall of the step...?

 

Chas Levin Posted Saturday at 15:46

And looking at Brian Haresnape's 'Railway Liveries 1923-47' (another thing I'd forgotten I had!), on page 188 is a fascinating picture of Sentinel no 22 in "the original livery of imitation varnished teak, with full lining and standard carriage style lettering" - now there's an interesting idea...!

 

Also interested to read in the caption to the next photo of Clayton 296 Wonder about it being shown as delivered to traffic in "the second livery of bright scarlet/vermilion red and cream". What's interesting is that he then notes that "very fine black and gilt lining [my italics] was applied to the cream, to simulate a panelled effect" - this must be what I've been puzzling over in later photos? A "panelled effect" is of course a much better way to describe what I called a "stepped inner section" and this is I think what I was puzzled by in the photos in the Campling book of Trailer 2165 in my previous post.

 

The caption to the next photo on page 55 notes that "Gresley finally settled on a grass green and cream livery"; I must admit I hadn't realised there were earlier versions.

 

Jon, I also found the photo you referred to in 'Big Four in Colour' of Eagle (lovely photo!) which notes the lining being a fine double green line. And I see the incurved corners too: no problem, just a case of finding a suitable diameter washer or something similar to use as a guide. Time consuming, but definitely achievable.

 

Presumably then they changed the lining colours from black & gilt (for the red & cream livery) to double green (for the green & cream livery) - which would certainly explain why the lining's so difficult to see in photos!

 

As to the spacing of the lining, I doubt we'll find a painting diagram but in any case, I think this will come down to what's actually practical with the ruling pen in 4mm...

 

Jon4470 posted 20 hours ago:

I’ve been looking though the photos in the various source books and, from what I can see, the arrow head lining was applied to the upper beading whenever that coincided with vertical beading on the lower panels. This included the beading adjacent to the doors. The arrow head lining was applied as well as the panel lining - and this shows up well in Mike’s earlier post.

 

I’d forgotten how many varieties of railcar were produced for the LNER! As far as I can tell the NuCast kit is for a Diagram 97 railcar……so I think Green/cream or wartime brown are the available livery options.

 

Micklner posted 19 hours ago:

I believe the Nu Cast version is a Dia 96?.

 

History here

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/Railcar/sentinel.php 

 

Chas Levin posted 19 hours ago:

Very interesting Jon, your observations about where the arrowhead lining was applied: it might be worth drawing a plan, based o the Nu-Cast layout, showing where the lining should be applied - a modern version of a Painting Diagram, in fact.

 

As to livery choice yes, I'd assumed this railcar version would be too late for earlier schemes such as teak but in any case, with plenty of teak coaches and no LNER Tourist stock I'm looking forward to seeing the green & cream...

 

MikeTrice posted 17 hours ago:

First off it might benefit to break these livery discussions into a separate topic as they might be lost within this one.

 

I found I had more images of Railcars than I thought. Going through them I can really only make out a single panel line not two as quoted. However enlarging the Nick Campling images, even though they are screened for publication a second fainter inner line can be made out. So this raises the question whether the line was thinner or a different colour.

 

Just noticed Yeadon Vol 12 page 63 shows the double lining quite well.

 

Micklner posted 17 hours ago:

Green and Cream , Plain Brown during the war if any lasted that long. Info in Campling book.

 

Chas Levin posted 16 hours ago:

Good idea Mike, re separate topic, I'll sort that out.

 

As to the relative widths and spacing of the lines, it might be difficult to find definitive info if the only sources are photos of the sort of age and resolution we've been looking at so far, but you never know...

Edited June 14, 2023 by Chas Levin

[t-b-g]

I would agree with the remark about a thin black line between the green and the cream, along the lower edge of the horizontal beading. If it was shadow, it would change thickness where the vertical beading crosses the horizontal beading but it doesn't.

 

I am catching just a tiny suggestion of a pale line (possibly white or gilt?) above the black line too but that is very much less clear to me.

 

I find these discussions fascinating. It always astonishes me just how much we don't really know about such things. Does a painting and lining spec. survive anywhere?

 

One of the late Malcolm Crawley's railway memories was of being at York, as a very young boy in the late 1920s or very early 1930s. He saw a red and cream carriage with steam coming out of it and wondered what it was. Later, he came to learn that it was a steam railcar in the early livery.

[micklner]

Re the Black lining mentioned above.

 

To me it is shading. If there was a Black line?, there is none on the flat surface on the Door to the right of the photo. The line would have continued across the Door as well.

 

They did'nt do a very good job on the numbers either, the 3 is lower than the rest !! 😃

Edited June 27, 2022 by micklner

[MikeTrice]

Since that photo extract was put up some much better ones have come to light on the Transport Library which for copyright reasons I am not putting up here, however at only 99p per digital image they will not exactly break the bank. The clearest image is Lady Hamilton:

 

https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/search&search=Sentinel+Steam+Railcar

 

 

[MikeTrice]

There are definately two parallel lines visible. The outer one is considerably wider than the inner one. Both have inverted curved corners.

[Chas Levin]

9 minutes ago, MikeTrice said:

Since that photo extract was put up some much better ones have come to light on the Transport Library which for copyright reasons I am not putting up here, however at only 99p per digital image they will not exactly break the bank. The clearest image is Lady Hamilton:

 

https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/search&search=Sentinel+Steam+Railcar

 

 

Thanks Mike, I'll get hold of these and have a look this evening - at a quick glance there are quite a few, aren't there?

Edited June 27, 2022 by Chas Levin

[MikeTrice]

Yes, but you can be selective.

[t-b-g]

6 hours ago, micklner said:

Re the Black lining mentioned above.

 

To me it is shading. If there was a Black line?, there is none on the flat surface on the Door to the right of the photo. The line would have continued across the Door as well.

 

They did'nt do a very good job on the numbers either, the 3 is lower than the rest !! 😃

 

I am not convinced 100% one way or the other. If it is a shadow, why does it continue across the vertical beading? Is there something I am unaware of protruding there to create a shadow? It may be that the line, if indeed there is one, didn't go on the inset doors.

 

The LNER Tourist Stock had lining in that position, between the green and the cream. So why should the railcars, painted in essentially the same livery, be any different? It seems a bit odd adding all that lining and then not putting one between the two major colours where you might expect there to be some.

 

I am sure somebody will have a clear photo, which proves it one way or the other.

 

[MikeTrice]

Just found this image: https://rogerfarnworth.files.wordpress.com/2022/05/a-27.jpg

 

Regarding the reference to double green lines this is mentioned in "Big Four In Colour". Interestingly the Sentinel Shunters had a similar arrange but in red on black.

 

I note the restored NER railcar has similar double lining albeit in different colours:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NER_electric_units#/media/File:North_Eastern_Railway_Parcels_Van.jpg

[MikeTrice]

Another photo where you can just make out the two lines:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/40233385813/sizes/h/

 

and another:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/41569041972/sizes/4k/

 

and another even clearer:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/wandering_grayson/27692306705/sizes/k/

 

The last image you can make out what appear to be horizontal lining on the waist panel just like the preserved NER railcar.

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

 

I am not convinced 100% one way or the other. If it is a shadow, why does it continue across the vertical beading? Is there something I am unaware of protruding there to create a shadow? It may be that the line, if indeed there is one, didn't go on the inset doors.

 

The LNER Tourist Stock had lining in that position, between the green and the cream. So why should the railcars, painted in essentially the same livery, be any different? It seems a bit odd adding all that lining and then not putting one between the two major colours where you might expect there to be some.

 

I am sure somebody will have a clear photo, which proves it one way or the other.

 

That's something that's puzzled me too, the question to what degree the railcar lining repllicated that of Tourist stock. I have to admit that I wasn't aware that the Tourist stock had lining - I've never looked at detailed photos, or seen a model up close and the descriptions I've read only mentioned the two main colours - so I was puzzled to read of the railcars' lining being the same. Clearly, I was misinformed and I'm very interested to learn that Tourist stock had lining too...

[Chas Levin]

Mike, what excellent photos, thank you very much for finding and linking them. I started looking through them and framing in my mind a reply to the effect that although they do certainly confirm the application of a narrower inner line in a lighter colour, I still wasn't 100% sure that what appears to be the outer thicker black (?) line might not in fact be a stepped panel... until I came to the final photo you've linked, the one of Cleveland!

32 minutes ago, MikeTrice said:

...and another even clearer:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/wandering_grayson/27692306705/sizes/k/

 

The last image you can make out what appear to be horizontal lining on the waist panel just like the preserved NER railcar.

That is an order of magnitude increase in clarification, isn't it? As you say, both lines are very clearly visible and the horizontal one too.

What's also interesting is that you can see at the top of the frontmost side panel on the left-hand side - just below the cantrail - what appear to be smudges or rubbed areas (soot?) and those, combined with the appearance of the lines as they go round the corners, are enough to convince me that this was lining, not a panel.

As Brian Haresnape in his book refers to the double lining being specifically intended to "simulate a panelled effect", the fact that we've been puzzling over it must be a tribute to the excellence of the painters!

Looking at these various photos though, there does seem to be some variation between vehicles, for instance in whether the verticals on pillars did or did not have arrowheads at each end - presumably that would be down to slightly different practices at different paint shops, as I've learned about in other areas of GNR practice? That might also explain the reference to double green lining - perhaps that was done on some railcars, in some years?

I also note that if you look at the front right-hand coner curve (i.e. the front corner furthrest from the camer) of this photo of Cleveland, you can - to my eye - definitely see the metal and the lining curving round on a single, flat plane - no panelling, just painted lining...

 

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

I am sure somebody will have a clear photo, which proves it one way or the other.

 

Yes, I think Mike may have done just that... 👏

 

The preserved NER railcar's very interesting too, isn't it. Does anyone know what sources they used for the livery?

Edited June 27, 2022 by Chas Levin

[micklner]

1 hour ago, MikeTrice said:

Just found this image: https://rogerfarnworth.files.wordpress.com/2022/05/a-27.jpg

 

Regarding the reference to double green lines this is mentioned in "Big Four In Colour". Interestingly the Sentinel Shunters had a similar arrange but in red on black.

 

I note the restored NER railcar has similar double lining albeit in different colours:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NER_electric_units#/media/File:North_Eastern_Railway_Parcels_Van.jpg

Interesting as the NER photo could also have a Black line seperating the Red and Cream panels. However the Doors again are not lined and it is  more obvious it is a shadow not a Black Line in amodern photograph.

[MikeTrice]

27 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

I have to admit that I wasn't aware that the Tourist stock had lining.

They have a single horizontal black line at the junction of the green and cream panels.

[Chas Levin]

16 minutes ago, micklner said:

Interesting as the NER photo could also have a Black line seperating the Red and Cream panels. However the Doors again are not lined and it is  more obvious it is a shadow not a Black Line in amodern photograph.

Also looking at that modern NER pic, the penny's just dropped that they didn't line doors or sections where there was a genuine recessed area (such as windows or the tongue-and-groove boarding around the circular portholes), they lined those areas which were flat steel, in order to match the look of the wooden recessed areas better.

 

Sorry if that's obvious and I've been slow on the uptake! In a lot of the older photos it's not always fully clear which areas are recessed panels, which are beading and which are flat, but as you say Mick in the modern photo everything's very clear: wish I'd thought of looking at this preserved NER one sooner!

Edited June 27, 2022 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

So, given the B&W railcar photos that do clearly show a lighter, thinner line inside the black one, and given the preserved NER railcar's thinner red line inside the black one, is it reasonable to assume that the thinner line inside the black on the green and cream railcars was definitely green? I can't imagine what other colour it could be...? With a nod to @Jon4470's suggested possibility of gold, it looks darker than gold on those few photos where it's clearly visible, such as the latest ones posted by Mike.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Chas Levin

[MarkC]

Original railcar, believed to be "Hope", at Robin Hoods Bay on trials. Shows a lot of lining details.

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/r/robin_hoods_bay/robin_hoods_bay(4.1927)old3.jpg

 

Fascinating topic, this, particularly as I've bought a Shapeways Clayton railcar body, to complete in due course. (Superb 3D print, by the way).

 

Mark

 

 

Edited July 2, 2022 by MarkC

[Chas Levin]

14 minutes ago, MarkC said:

Original railcar, believed to be "Pilot", at Robin Hoods Bay on trials. Shows a lot of lining details.

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/r/robin_hoods_bay/robin_hoods_bay(4.1927)old3.jpg

 

Fascinating topic, this, particularly as I've bought a Shapeways Clayton railcar body, to complete in due course. (Superb 3D print, by the way).

 

Mark

 

 

Hello Mark, nice pic, thanks for posting the link. Great period outfits - funny, I'd have guessed at an earlier date based on what the gents are wearing.

 

If I'm not mistaken, that's in the very first, earliest livery of teak effect paintwork on the steel body, so the lining there would be the same type of primrose done on teak coaching stock I think. They moved from that to the red and cream and then to the final green and cream.

 

I've seen the Shapeways Clayton and it did look tempting: what's the surface finish like?

[MarkC]

38 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

Hello Mark, nice pic, thanks for posting the link. Great period outfits - funny, I'd have guessed at an earlier date based on what the gents are wearing.

 

If I'm not mistaken, that's in the very first, earliest livery of teak effect paintwork on the steel body, so the lining there would be the same type of primrose done on teak coaching stock I think. They moved from that to the red and cream and then to the final green and cream.

 

I've seen the Shapeways Clayton and it did look tempting: what's the surface finish like?

Hi Chas

 

It really is a cracking image - and with tail traffic too. All fascinating stuff.

 

There have been discussions before - and to my eternal shame I can't recall where - about whether it was scumble effect, or just a brown/red solid colour.

 

The surface finish on the Clayton is very good indeed. It's just a shame that Shapeways are so expensive. (I got mine with a 10% Black Friday discount last year).

 

Cheers

Mark

 

[Chas Levin]

Hi Mark, the only reference to this earliest livery I've so far found is the one I quoted earlier in this thread, from Brian Haresnape's 'Railway Liveries 1923-47', which captions the picture of no 22 in on page 188 as being "the original livery of imitation varnished teak, with full lining and standard carriage style lettering". I take that to mean more than a solid red-brown - I think it means the same type of imitation painted woodgrain effect later used on steel sided carriages and I think in those days, that did involve scumbling, didn't it?

I wonder if anyone's modelled one of the railcars in that livery? I'm not volunteering - I'm very taken with the green and cream... 

There's also a nice looking photo of a model towards the foot of the LNER Info's page on Sentinels (https://www.lner.info/locos/Railcar/sentinel.php ) which shows a model in brown and cream (or perhaps brown and beige). Not sure which livery that's meant to be - I thought the wartime brown was just brown...?

Edited June 28, 2022 by Chas Levin

[MarkC]

1 hour ago, Chas Levin said:

Hi Mark, the only reference to this earliest livery I've so far found is the one I quoted earlier in this thread, from Brian Haresnape's 'Railway Liveries 1923-47', which captions the picture of no 22 in on page 188 as being "the original livery of imitation varnished teak, with full lining and standard carriage style lettering". I take that to mean more than a solid red-brown - I think it means the same type of imitation painted woodgrain effect later used on steel sided carriages and I think in those days, that did involve scumbling, didn't it?

I wonder if anyone's modelled one of the railcars in that livery? I'm not volunteering - I'm very taken with the green and cream... 

There's a nice photo of a model in what I take to be the wartime brown towards the foot of the LNER Info's page on Sentinels: https://www.lner.info/locos/Railcar/sentinel.php 

Hi Chas

You're right about the quote, but if there is some 'graining' in the paint, it's not obvious, even when you zoom in.

 

cheers

Mark

 

[micklner]

Big Four in Colour by David Jenkinson page 91. Colour photo of Sentinel Eagle Dia 96 with double lining with curved corners  in the top panels, and its mentioned in the text as being Green. It looks Brown/Gold in the photo !!

 

Brass grab/door handles as well. It also mentions Dark Brown livery during wartime in the same text.

[Chas Levin]

6 minutes ago, micklner said:

Big Four in Colour by David Jenkinson page 91. Colour photo of Sentinel Eagle Dia 96 with double lining with curved corners  in the top panels, and its mentioned in the text as being Green. It looks Brown/Gold in the photo !!

 

Brass grab/door handles as well. It also mentions Dark Brown livery during wartime in the same text.

Yep, still puzzled as to where the source for the double green came from, though obviously David Jenkinson was a recognised authority so he must have had good information one assumes. As you say though Mick, the photo appears to contradict.

[Chas Levin]

23 hours ago, MikeTrice said:

Since that photo extract was put up some much better ones have come to light on the Transport Library which for copyright reasons I am not putting up here, however at only 99p per digital image they will not exactly break the bank. The clearest image is Lady Hamilton:

 

https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/search&search=Sentinel+Steam+Railcar

 

 

Just looking through these Transport Library images now Mike - some very interesting ones but none that show the lining as clearly as the Flickr ones you linked to recently (especially the last one, of Emerald) though the one of 2198 at Heaton is very good - it shows the horizontal lining separating the cream and green and it also shows the flat curve of the steel corner, proving (to my mind at any rate) that this was definitely lining, not recessed panelling.

The one of CLC 602 is also interesting in being taken from a lower vantage point and therefore showing more underframe detail.

There are also only two or three that show the full length of a side - useful for modelling purposes - as the majority are a three-quarter view but taken from the front, and favouring the front over the sides.

[t-b-g]

I have been speaking with a good friend who has previously investigated the lining on the LNER green and cream tourist stock and he had found the Doncaster painting spec. , which shows a single black line, half an inch wide, between the green and the cream. So it is not surprising that it isn't easy to spot in photos.

 

If anybody is interested, it is Doncaster Drawing Office No 922N, dated May 1932 and later revised.

 

It seems reasonable to think that the lining on the Sentinel might be similar.

 

I make that about 0.15mm wide in 4mm scale, which won't be easy to do to proper scale thickness.