LNER Sentinel & Clayton Railcars - livery & other questions

[jwealleans]

The first Sentinel shunter delivered, 8401, had double red lining much in the same style as the green lining we're discussing here.   Presumably Sentinel's instructions were updated between that and the second batch being delivered.

[Jon4470]

1 hour ago, Chas Levin said:

 

 

Regarding the LNER Locos you mention, would those be the Sentinel 0-4-0 shunters? If so, ws it the case that they were constructed in their entirety at the Sentinel works? If so, and they were not only being painted black but also lined in red, the LNER must have been happy to trust the simpler livery to Sentinel, also perhaps because the shunters were almost like departmental locos, not 'customer facing', as the modern jargon would have it.

 

 

Chas

 

My understanding about the locos built by outside constructors is that they painted by the contractor. I’d guess that there would be variations based on each quote etc (and maybe the livery in question). There is an example that comes to mind where a batch of J39s were painted black with red lining by the contractor…..several years after the LNER stopped the lining for these locos. The reason was the contractor had an out of date spec!

 

Jon

[jwealleans]

Also a batch of K3s built with the extra GN lamp iron in the 1930s.

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, Jon4470 said:

Chas

 

My understanding about the locos built by outside constructors is that they painted by the contractor. I’d guess that there would be variations based on each quote etc (and maybe the livery in question). There is an example that comes to mind where a batch of J39s were painted black with red lining by the contractor…..several years after the LNER stopped the lining for these locos. The reason was the contractor had an out of date spec!

 

Jon

Very interesting Jon and not what I'd imagined; I bet some at the LNER were a bit irritated by the J39 occurrence. I wonder whether incidents like contributed to greater keenness to apply livery in-house? It's easy to understand how it could happen though, where there are a lot of subcontractors to keep updated.

1 hour ago, jwealleans said:

Also a batch of K3s built with the extra GN lamp iron in the 1930s.

And the same with this Jonathan; I had a look online because I wondered whether this referred to the twin low height irons that sit beside each other at the front edge of the footplate, or the double-height single one that sits behind the front corner one and came across a thread on the LNER Info forum called "Twin Lampirons on GNR locos" from 2013 which touches on this.

 

2 hours ago, jwealleans said:

The first Sentinel shunter delivered, 8401, had double red lining much in the same style as the green lining we're discussing here.   Presumably Sentinel's instructions were updated between that and the second batch being delivered.

Clearly then, updating subcontractors worked sometimes!

[H16LSWR]

Although we do not have works photographs of all the LNER Sentinel locomotives built at Shrewsbury it does seem from those examined that the lining did indeed consist two red lines, a thin one inside a slightly thicker example. Regret I am not familiar with LNER lining details but assume the size of these lines was laid down by the LNER and relaid to Sentinel. The painting details I quoted applied to all the LNER orders I have seen but the laws of the Medes and Persians did not apply at Shrewsbury and details must have been amended on each order. Attached two works views on Sentinel's sidings, the first a 1926 order which later became LNER 4801 and a 1931example depicting LNER 148, the latter clearly showing the double lining. Note the early one has a lined out buffer beam, something omitted from later orders. 

[Chas Levin]

Fascinating shunter pictures H16LSWR, thank you for posting! You're right of course about the double line being very clear in the second but I'd say it's also clearly there on the 1926 view too.

 

One thing though: at first sight, I'd have assumed the 1926 lining to be red but the 1931 to be white or light grey. Surely it's not still red in that later view, is it?

[micklner]

148 here

 

 

[Metropolitan H]

The difference might be down to the type of B&W film used for the pictures. The older "Orthographic" (?) film tended to show red as very dark grey, while the newer "Panchromatic" film showed a greater contrast between "Black" and "Red". I don't know whether that it is the case here but in might be.

 

Also worth noting that the lining on the upper "cream" panels on the "Leeds Model Company" lithographed paper overlays for their "O" gauge models of the LNER Sentinel car is two fine red lines. The lithos are contemporary with the original cars.

 

Regards

Chris H

[Chas Levin]

43 minutes ago, micklner said:

148 here

 

 

Very atttractive Mick, but do you know where the info came from for an inner yellow line, instead of the double red?

[Chas Levin]

39 minutes ago, Metropolitan H said:

The difference might be down to the type of B&W film used for the pictures. The older "Orthographic" (?) film tended to show red as very dark grey, while the newer "Panchromatic" film showed a greater contrast between "Black" and "Red". I don't know whether that it is the case here but in might be.

 

Also worth noting that the lining on the upper "cream" panels on the "Leeds Model Company" lithographed paper overlays for their "O" gauge models of the LNER Sentinel car is two fine red lines. The lithos are contemporary with the original cars.

 

Regards

Chris H

Interesting thought Chris, I knew about that difference but I can't claim to be familiar enough with the differences to be able to look at a pair of photos done with the two types and say which was which. Have to do some further reading on that...

 

Re. the Leeds Model Co one, yes, nice point too. It's difficult to know though, quite what went on at the time, in terms of artistic license. It's like those very nice looking colour postcards of locos - I have a few of the GNR ones - which are either drawings, or colourised photos. There are enough differences - especially in the drawn pictures - from published specs, or from those livery details which can reliably be discerned from B&W photos, to suggest that there wasn't a terrifically strong concern for accuracy at the time. I would suggest it's highly likely to have been similar at the Leeds Model Co. I thought it very odd that they used double red but on the green and cream livery...

 

After all, they were making toys - or pretty postcards - designed to amuse and entertain (and promote the railway company too, in the case of the GNR's own cards) so a reasonable likeness was probably considered sufficient. I'm sure it didn't cross anyone's mind at the time that people would be trying to ascertain precise details a century later, any more than the publicity departments of the Big Four Supermarkets today would imagine that their branding might be the subject of accurate scale model portrayals in the next century... (Historical Model Supermarket Society, anyone?).

[micklner]

33 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

Very atttractive Mick, but do you know where the info came from for an inner yellow line, instead of the double red?

Not gotta Scobbie Do/ clue  !!

 

Model Rail Magazine commisioned them they may know ! The lines are very oversize that is for sure !.

 

Looking at the photo the inner line matches the Bufferbeam shade i.e looks slightly darker then the outside line. If correct the lining is the wrong way around?. Looks like "Yellow"  outside, Red inside to me ?  That is on my screen.

Unless you are modelling that  Sentinel Shunter I would'nt be too concerned about it. There is another  colour photo of another Sentinel Shunter Red lining only. I have never seen any other photo of a  LNER Loco using Yellow/red lining on Black.

 

Red lining on Black as already said disappears on some old film types. Doubful if we will ever know on a lot of locos, the actual colour shades used/layouts at specific times.

[Metropolitan H]

Re. the LMC model of LNER Sentinel car "Nettle" I have now looked more closely at the Lithos that I have - it is two fine red lines, one almost invisible, on the cream panels - see http://www.leedsstedmantrust.org/archives/pages/68.html  .

 

In the case of LMC although they made some generic locos they also produced some very fine scale models with good attention to livery details etc. They were more Bassett-Lowke / Beeson than Hornby. The online archive pictures are worth a good dose of looking at. See http://www.leedsstedmantrust.org/archives/START.html for the index of all 108 images.

 

Regards

Chris H

Edited July 13, 2022 by Metropolitan H
correction - the LMC lithos do have two fine red lines.

[jwealleans]

Weren't some railcars painted red and cream like the Tyneside electrics, before the green and cream was settled on?   I wonder whether the red lining is an omission from that change.

[Jon4470]

Big Four in Colour has a picture of Sentinel shutter 8400 that shows double red lining. The out side line is much thicker than the inside.

 

I have just been browsing an old Michael Harris book “Gresley’s Coaches” dated 1972. It has a tantalising bit of detail….

”From 1929 onwards, new and existing railcars were painted in the cream and locomotive green later used for the Tourist stock. The cream panels were picked out with a 3/8 in. line about 1 in. from the panel edge.”

Unfortunately no mention of the colour of the lining!

His later books don’t seem to include this statement ( I suspect because they were really about the standard carriages). I don’t know what source he had for this information.

 

It seems to me that a logical sequence would be (I realise that logic and LNER paint schemes don’t always go together😀) :

1. Red and cream lined as per the NER scheme - black outside line and red (body colour) inside

2. Move to green and cream. Retain black outside line and body colour inside line ( now green)

 

Now at anytime, of course, they could have moved to two body coloured lines  

 

Probably best just to paint up a model - should guarantee that concrete evidence will emerge….. and be different to the model😀

 

Jon

[micklner]

1 hour ago, Jon4470 said:

Big Four in Colour has a picture of Sentinel shutter 8400 that shows double red lining. The out side line is much thicker than the inside.

 

I have just been browsing an old Michael Harris book “Gresley’s Coaches” dated 1972. It has a tantalising bit of detail….

”From 1929 onwards, new and existing railcars were painted in the cream and locomotive green later used for the Tourist stock. The cream panels were picked out with a 3/8 in. line about 1 in. from the panel edge.”

Unfortunately no mention of the colour of the lining!

His later books don’t seem to include this statement ( I suspect because they were really about the standard carriages). I don’t know what source he had for this information.

 

It seems to me that a logical sequence would be (I realise that logic and LNER paint schemes don’t always go together😀) :

1. Red and cream lined as per the NER scheme - black outside line and red (body colour) inside

2. Move to green and cream. Retain black outside line and body colour inside line ( now green)

 

Now at anytime, of course, they could have moved to two body coloured lines  

 

Probably best just to paint up a model - should guarantee that concrete evidence will emerge….. and be different to the model😀

 

Jon

Logic to me as well.

 

Green Lining ,simply because there is no Red whatsoever on the Railcar even the Bufferbeam was Black. In 4mm the thickness of a Hair at a guess? It will be barely visible anyway ?

Edited July 13, 2022 by micklner

[Chas Levin]

6 hours ago, micklner said:

Not gotta Scobbie Do/ clue  !!

 

Model Rail Magazine commisioned them they may know ! The lines are very oversize that is for sure !.

 

Looking at the photo the inner line matches the Bufferbeam shade i.e looks slightly darker then the outside line. If correct the lining is the wrong way around?. Looks like "Yellow"  outside, Red inside to me ?  That is on my screen.

Unless you are modelling that  Sentinel Shunter I would'nt be too concerned about it. There is another  colour photo of another Sentinel Shunter Red lining only. I have never seen any other photo of a  LNER Loco using Yellow/red lining on Black.

 

Red lining on Black as already said disappears on some old film types. Doubful if we will ever know on a lot of locos, the actual colour shades used/layouts at specific times.

Yes, I must admit I did wonder about the lines' width, but as a newcomer to the world of lining I didn't think I should wade in a start criticising expensive commercial products... Really not sure about the yellow though!

And yes, I'm not worrying about it right now, thought I might well build a shunter in due course - I'd like to do an etched kit.

[Chas Levin]

4 hours ago, Metropolitan H said:

Re. the LMC model of LNER Sentinel car "Nettle" I have now looked more closely at the Lithos that I have - it is two fine red lines, one almost invisible, on the cream panels - see http://www.leedsstedmantrust.org/archives/pages/68.html  .

 

In the case of LMC although they made some generic locos they also produced some very fine scale models with good attention to livery details etc. They were more Bassett-Lowke / Beeson than Hornby. The online archive pictures are worth a good dose of looking at. See http://www.leedsstedmantrust.org/archives/START.html for the index of all 108 images.

 

Regards

Chris H

Thanks Chris, very interesting and yes, it does look like those photos are worth looking at properly. I still can't help feeling though that the red lining on a green and cream coach isn't right; also that mixing red and green lining wasn't usual. Odd though, since as you say they were contemporary and as you also observe, they were clearly aiming at  a high market level... Not sure what to make of it.

[Chas Levin]

4 hours ago, jwealleans said:

Weren't some railcars painted red and cream like the Tyneside electrics, before the green and cream was settled on?   I wonder whether the red lining is an omission from that change.

Yes, Brian Haresnape's "Railway Liveries" was where I saw mention of the second livery (after the initial lined teak-effect) being red and cream, but he also notes there a "very fine black and gilt lining applied to the cream, to simulate a panelled effect".

 

Maybe the Leeds Model Co designers saw both versions - red/cream and green/cream - and either made a mistake, or deiced to combine features of both?

[micklner]

Some of the LNER vans and wagons colours are not correct in some of the LMC photos. The LNER never painted any Black , another LNER Van is also Black or a very dark Green/Blue colour .

The Railcar has a Red Bufferbeam, which were Black in actual use.

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, Jon4470 said:

Big Four in Colour has a picture of Sentinel shutter 8400 that shows double red lining. The out side line is much thicker than the inside.

 

I have just been browsing an old Michael Harris book “Gresley’s Coaches” dated 1972. It has a tantalising bit of detail….

”From 1929 onwards, new and existing railcars were painted in the cream and locomotive green later used for the Tourist stock. The cream panels were picked out with a 3/8 in. line about 1 in. from the panel edge.”

Unfortunately no mention of the colour of the lining!

His later books don’t seem to include this statement ( I suspect because they were really about the standard carriages). I don’t know what source he had for this information.

 

It seems to me that a logical sequence would be (I realise that logic and LNER paint schemes don’t always go together😀) :

1. Red and cream lined as per the NER scheme - black outside line and red (body colour) inside

2. Move to green and cream. Retain black outside line and body colour inside line ( now green)

 

Now at anytime, of course, they could have moved to two body coloured lines  

 

Probably best just to paint up a model - should guarantee that concrete evidence will emerge….. and be different to the model😀

 

Jon

Yes, I think that's what we'll end up doing, of course: painting and lining the things and then we'll find new info. All part of the fun though!

I hadn't thought of looking in that Harris books because I didn't realise the railcars were included at all, even in that one.

That is an interesting detail Jon - and the measurements are useful - but I think we've established from multiple photos that there definitely was a double line, so it's odd that he doesn't note that - though perhaps, as you say, he was more interested in the standard carriages...

 

But yes, I entirely agree with your suggested logical sequence of red/cream with red/black lines, moving to green/cream with green/black lines, and I intend doing green and black lines on the one I build... unless we turn up anything more conclusive before I reach the lining stage!

[Chas Levin]

19 minutes ago, micklner said:

Logic to me as well.

 

Green Lining ,simply because there is no Red whatsoever on the Railcar even the Bufferbeam was Black. In 4mm the thickness of a Hair at a guess? It will be barely visible anyway ?

Yep, you posted at the same time I was rtplying to Jon's post and agreeing too.

 

I've been surprised by how visible very thin lines are, actually, certainly in lighter colours. I've repeatedly erred on the side of over-thickening, worrying about visibility, while noting that some lines I didn't over-thicken are actually still perfectly visible.

Also though, even someone like Ian Rathbone notes that we will always be applying over-scale lines, partly because of the near impossibility of produding true scale thickness in 4mm, partly precisely in order to guarantee a reasonable degree of visibility.

[Chas Levin]

8 minutes ago, micklner said:

Some of the LNER vans and wagons colours are not correct in some of the LMC photos. The LNER never painted any Black , another LNER Van is also Black or a very dark Green/Blue colour .

The Railcar has a Red Bufferbeam, which were Black in actual use.

Aha: railcar buffer beam colours - another thing to investigate... 🤔 And what about curtains? And wheel centres? The roof?

 

Ok, time for bed!

[31A]

6 hours ago, jwealleans said:

Weren't some railcars painted red and cream like the Tyneside electrics, before the green and cream was settled on? 

 

Yes, basically those built before 1928 but not including the five early ones (Nos. 12E,13E, 21 & 22, Clayton No. 41.) referred to earlier which were in imitation teak when new.  No. 2133 was the first to be painted green & cream from new in 1928, and the older cars were brought into line when repainted from 1930 onwards.  Summarising information from the RCTS Locomotives of the LNER Part 10B p.30-1 and 67.

 

If someone had asked me before this thread was started, I would have said the lining on the cream panels was red, but I don't know now what makes me think that!  I don't think I've ever seen an LMC Model of one!

 

[MarkC]

4 hours ago, 31A said:

 

Yes, basically those built before 1928 but not including the five early ones (Nos. 12E,13E, 21 & 22, Clayton No. 41.) referred to earlier which were in imitation teak when new.  No. 2133 was the first to be painted green & cream from new in 1928, and the older cars were brought into line when repainted from 1930 onwards.  Summarising information from the RCTS Locomotives of the LNER Part 10B p.30-1 and 67.

 

If someone had asked me before this thread was started, I would have said the lining on the cream panels was red, but I don't know now what makes me think that!  I don't think I've ever seen an LMC Model of one!

 

Clayton #41 when built was in teak - thank you very much indeed - my Clayton will be just that, as it was sent to the Malton-Whitby-Scarborough-Malton circuit for trials.

 

Mark

[Chas Levin]

9 hours ago, 31A said:

 

Yes, basically those built before 1928 but not including the five early ones (Nos. 12E,13E, 21 & 22, Clayton No. 41.) referred to earlier which were in imitation teak when new.  No. 2133 was the first to be painted green & cream from new in 1928, and the older cars were brought into line when repainted from 1930 onwards.  Summarising information from the RCTS Locomotives of the LNER Part 10B p.30-1 and 67.

Thanks Steve, very helpful - another RCTS volume I should probably get!

9 hours ago, 31A said:

If someone had asked me before this thread was started, I would have said the lining on the cream panels was red, but I don't know now what makes me think that!  I don't think I've ever seen an LMC Model of one!

 

Just to be clear, do you mean you'd have thought the lining was red on the green-and-cream vehicles, as well as on the red-and-cream ones?