LNER Sentinel & Clayton Railcars - livery & other questions

[31A]

1 minute ago, Chas Levin said:

Just to be clear, do you mean you'd have thought the lining was red on the green-and-cream vehicles, as well as on the red-and-cream ones?

 

Yes, that is what I thought.  I have thought that for a long time, but not sure now why I thought it!

 

In the notes accompanying the Clayton Railcar drawings in "Historic Carriage Drawings", Nick Campling wrote that "when first introduced, some railcars were in ersatz teak or plum and cream livery but this was short-lived" and that they were then finished in the same livery as the tourist stock but with standard numbers and letters.  One of the end view drawings shows details of the lining of the trailer car (a double line with scalloped corners within the panels) but doesn't say what colour it was.  The photos which accompany the drawings in the second edition clearly show the lining as applied to the Clayton cars and accompanying 4 wheeled trailers, but are obviously black & white.

 

By plum and cream, I take it he is referring to the livery which the RCTS book calls "vermilion and cream".

 

There was a drawing of a 100HP Sentinel Cammell Railcar, again by Nick Campling, published in the Railway Modeller February 1973, but livery details are even more brief, probably less was known in 1973, however it does say "roofs were grey and underframes including buffer beams, black".  The black & white official photo of No. 26 "Tally Ho" (York, March 1928) published with this article shows how the lining was applied to the upper panels of the Sentinel cars pretty clearly, especially around the 'non motor' end but again no clue as to the colour.  According to the RCTS book, that was the first Sentinel car painted green/cream from new which is possibly why the official photographer took its portrait.

 

23 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

Thanks Steve, very helpful - another RCTS volume I should probably get!

 

There are quite a lot of useful photos of the railcars in it including some official works photos; although the pictures are reproduced quite small several of them are sharp enough to give an indication of the lining.

 

[31A]

Here's another reference.  MRJ no. 244 "A Sentinel in S Scale", in which John Holden describes building Diagram 97 car No. 39 'Protector' using Worsley Works etches.  In it he refers to an Isinglass drawing for a Diagram 93 car, an Ian Beattie drawing in the June 1999 Railway Modeller (which I had forgotten about), and a Nick Campling drawing in the May 1967 Model Railway News, which I will have somewhere but can't lay my hands on at the moment.  Anyway, he describes the building of the model and painting it in green & cream livery, then says:

 

"Campling's notes to his drawing (the MRN one, presumably) suggest plum lining.  I couldn't quite reconcile myself to that, so used a black fine-lining pen instead".  

 

I remember the MRN drawing and that may be where I got the idea from that the lining was red, assuming Campling uses "plum" in the same context that he uses it for the earlier livery which the RCTS describe as vermillion.  Back in the dim and distant, I had ideas of using the MRN drawing to build one but I seem to recall that it was reproduced to 3mm / ft scale which rather put me off.  John Holden doesn't say why he couldn't reconcile himself to the lining being "plum".

 

[Chas Levin]

Thanks Steve, for both the above posts. Confirmation of underframe and buffer beam colour is of course useful - I'd have assumed the underframe was black but not necessarily the beams too, until the recent mention of that. Good to have confirmation of grey roofs - that's what you see everywhere (prototype and model) but I did wonder whether they might have been white when first outshopped, darkening to grey once the smoke got on them, like standard LNER carriage stock. I must admit I was secretly hoping that too, as I do love white roofs... not to be, sadly!

 

I need to have a look at the LNER Drawings Campling book in more detail - I looked at the drawings earlier on in posting on this thread but didn't read the accompanying text (I didn't do my homework properly!).

Using the word 'plum' for 'vermilion' is something I find a little odd to be candid, in that I think of those shades as very different, but he might perhaps have been using  a contemporary colour photo or two for reference and we know how colours can be distorted in early colour film, especially reds and greens.

 

I had forgotten that Worsley do an etched kit; pity it's in a larger scale, as that would solve the weight / power problem that was discussed on my own thread before we started this one, where the talk was more generally about building the Nu-Cast kit and touched on under-powered bogies...

 

What do you think about the theory recently summarised by Jon a few posts back that the 2nd red/cream livery had red/black lining, while the 3rd green/cream livery had green/black lining, which (if this isn't putting words into your mouth @Jon4470) I'd suggest implies some confusion on the part of previous writers in ascribing red lining to green vehicles? I don't mean to be rude or disrespectful towards someone like Nick Campling of course, who's level of knowledge and experience compared to mine is as a half-mile single road local halt country branch line, compared to Kings Cross (Ok, a bit laboured, but you get the point!). I just find it very difficult to believe they'd have put red lining on a green and cream vehicle, given the general LNER livery styles.

 

Another explanation might be that we are mis-reading what was written. For instance, a sentence about red lining, following on from a paragraph about two different liveries, might be thought to apply to either of those two liveries. Also, the quote you give by John Holden leaves slight doubt as to which drawing(s) Nick Campling's note itself referred to, if I'm reading it correctly?

 

 

For modelling purposes though, I think we've established that one could line a model in green/cream livery with an outer, thicker black line and a thinner green line inside it, with reasonable historical accuracy. There were clearly changes, variations and so forth, but such a model wouldn't actually look wrong, would it?

[Jon4470]

33 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

Thanks Steve, for both the above posts. Confirmation of underframe and buffer beam colour is of course useful - I'd have assumed the underframe was black but not necessarily the beams too, until the recent mention of that. Good to have confirmation of grey roofs - that's what you see everywhere (prototype and model) but I did wonder whether they might have been white when first outshopped, darkening to grey once the smoke got on them, like standard LNER carriage stock. I must admit I was secretly hoping that too, as I do love white roofs... not to be, sadly!

 

I need to have a look at the LNER Drawings Campling book in more detail - I looked at the drawings earlier on in posting on this thread but didn't read the accompanying text (I didn't do my homework properly!).

Using the word 'plum' for 'vermilion' is something I find a little odd to be candid, in that I think of those shades as very different, but he might perhaps have been using  a contemporary colour photo or two for reference and we know how colours can be distorted in early colour film, especially reds and greens.

 

I had forgotten that Worsley do an etched kit; pity it's in a larger scale, as that would solve the weight / power problem that was discussed on my own thread before we started this one, where the talk was more generally about building the Nu-Cast kit and touched on under-powered bogies...

 

What do you think about the theory recently summarised by Jon a few posts back that the 2nd red/cream livery had red/black lining, while the 3rd green/cream livery had green/black lining, which (if this isn't putting words into your mouth @Jon4470) I'd suggest implies some confusion on the part of previous writers in ascribing red lining to green vehicles? I don't mean to be rude or disrespectful towards someone like Nick Campling of course, who's level of knowledge and experience compared to mine is as a half-mile single road local halt country branch line, compared to Kings Cross (Ok, a bit laboured, but you get the point!). I just find it very difficult to believe they'd have put red lining on a green and cream vehicle, given the general LNER livery styles.

 

Another explanation might be that we are mis-reading what was written. For instance, a sentence about red lining, following on from a paragraph about two different liveries, might be thought to apply to either of those two liveries. Also, the quote you give by John Holden leaves slight doubt as to which drawing(s) Nick Campling's note itself referred to, if I'm reading it correctly?

 

 

For modelling purposes though, I think we've established that one could line a model in green/cream livery with an outer, thicker black line and a thinner green line inside it, with reasonable historical accuracy. There were clearly changes, variations and so forth, but such a model wouldn't actually look wrong, would it?

Hi Chas

No - I don’t think you are putting words in my mouth.

My theory (or more accurately ….my hypothesis) is only there because (so far) there is no definitive evidence about what the colours actually were at the various stages and evolutions of the livery. I think that all of the authors, and sources, have some of the evidence but it’s very difficult to be sure whether the colour references are correct for each style of body painting. For instance:

1. I had heard that the lining was gilt - perhaps this was just for teak?

2. Red or Red/black lining - just the red/ cream? Or did it carry over to the green/cream?

3. On the green/cream livery was the lining Green for both lines or just one?

etc

It would be great if a contemporary account turned up that was very specific.
 

If I was planning to paint a railcar today in green and cream, I think that I would probably paint a dummy side and try the various lining options….then use the one that I like the most😃

Jon

 

Apologies - I think I am repeating myself on this post a bit

[31A]

 

2 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Using the word 'plum' for 'vermilion' is something I find a little odd to be candid

 

Hi Chas, I thought that too, although I suppose perhaps it may depend on what variety of plum you're thinking of!  For example Victoria plums can be quite a bright shade.

 

2 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Also, the quote you give by John Holden leaves slight doubt as to which drawing(s) Nick Campling's note itself referred to, if I'm reading it correctly?

 

I think that's my fault; in trying to clarify things I have probably confused matters.  The only Campling drawing referred to in the MRJ article is the May 1967 MRN one; I put the bit in brackets to emphasise that he was not referring to the "Historic Carriage Drawings" or 1973 RM ones.

 

Anyway, I have now found the May 1967 Model Railway News myself.  The drawing is of No. 2219 'New Fly' built in 1929 to Diagram 97, and there is a photo of No. 31 'Flower of Yarrow' (Dia 96, 1928).  There is a paragraph on painting which I will quote:

 

"The detailed livery of the vehicles has been somewhat difficult to authenticate. The first Railcars were finished in 'varnished teak' and this was later changed to cream and crimson.  From 1928 and therefore for the cars in question, the livery was as follows:  Body below waist and droplight of trailing and drivers' door; loco green.  Body above waist; cream lined 1 inch from panel edge with 3/8 inch

plum coloured line.  Roof: lead grey.  Underframe, bogies and solebars; black.  Wheel; black with white rims. LNER and number; Standard 4 inch characters.  Name; 7 inch letters."

 

Bear in mind though, this was written in 1967 and although it sounds authoritative, it looks as though further information can nowadays be deduced e.g. the photographic evidence in this thread that the lining was at least sometimes a double line.  The article acknowledges "Photograph and original information by courtesy of the PRPO, British Railways, Eastern Region" which sounds pretty official and the painting description does read in the way that railway company paint specs might have been written.

 

2 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

I had forgotten that Worsley do an etched kit; pity it's in a larger scale, as that would solve the weight / power problem that was discussed on my own thread before we started this one, where the talk was more generally about building the Nu-Cast kit and touched on under-powered bogies...

 

In the MRJ article it is explained that the Worsley Works kit was enlarged 'to order' from 3mm Scale to S Scale, so perhaps he might be amenable to doing the same thing for 4mm Scale.  It is listed in 3mm scale on this page:

 

http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/3mm/3mm_LNER.htm

 

I have made a few 4mm scale coaches using Worsley Works sides which have been enlarged in this way and found them to be a good product.  However the kits are sometimes described as 'scratch aids' and according to the MRJ article, for the railcar you get an etch providing body sides and ends, the various doors, a floor and solebars, formers for the inside of the ends and the curved cantrail at the ends, and battery boxes.  I would imagine forming the curves at the corners of the  ends would be interesting, as would forming the tumble home on the sides, as the passenger saloon part would be quite flimsy above the waist.  And you're on your own for roof, bogies, mechanism etc.

 

[micklner]

Couple of photos of my NuCast version . Hopefully correct livery sans lining etc.

 

HOPE the last Sentinel to be withdrawn.

 

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by micklner

[Chas Levin]

6 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

Hi Chas

No - I don’t think you are putting words in my mouth.

My theory (or more accurately ….my hypothesis) is only there because (so far) there is no definitive evidence about what the colours actually were at the various stages and evolutions of the livery. I think that all of the authors, and sources, have some of the evidence but it’s very difficult to be sure whether the colour references are correct for each style of body painting. For instance:

1. I had heard that the lining was gilt - perhaps this was just for teak?

2. Red or Red/black lining - just the red/ cream? Or did it carry over to the green/cream?

3. On the green/cream livery was the lining Green for both lines or just one?

etc

It would be great if a contemporary account turned up that was very specific.
 

If I was planning to paint a railcar today in green and cream, I think that I would probably paint a dummy side and try the various lining options….then use the one that I like the most😃

Jon

 

Apologies - I think I am repeating myself on this post a bit

No problem repeating things, inevitable I think where people are oushing ideas around...

 

All interesting points - and yes, perhaps the gilt lining on the teak, the red on the red-cream and the green on the green/cream have all gotten a little intermixed, over time.

Nice idea, painting up a dummy side: I shall do that, as I did something similar with my current GNR build and it was very useful. The railcar's going to be in green/cream though and I cannot imagine I'll think that red on that looks right (to me, I mean), or that I'll dislike the look of green lining, but trying it out is of course very sensible.

[Chas Levin]

4 hours ago, 31A said:

Hi Chas, I thought that too, although I suppose perhaps it may depend on what variety of plum you're thinking of!  For example Victoria plums can be quite a bright shade.

Nice point Steve - different peoples' use of language is something to take into account when dealing with this sort of thing. I'm sure that one way or another, the red in question is the same red, whether it's a language gap or a colour film variation.

4 hours ago, 31A said:

I think that's my fault; in trying to clarify things I have probably confused matters.  The only Campling drawing referred to in the MRJ article is the May 1967 MRN one; I put the bit in brackets to emphasise that he was not referring to the "Historic Carriage Drawings" or 1973 RM ones.

Ah - Ok, got you.

4 hours ago, 31A said:

Anyway, I have now found the May 1967 Model Railway News myself.  The drawing is of No. 2219 'New Fly' built in 1929 to Diagram 97, and there is a photo of No. 31 'Flower of Yarrow' (Dia 96, 1928).  There is a paragraph on painting which I will quote:

 

"The detailed livery of the vehicles has been somewhat difficult to authenticate. The first Railcars were finished in 'varnished teak' and this was later changed to cream and crimson.  From 1928 and therefore for the cars in question, the livery was as follows:  Body below waist and droplight of trailing and drivers' door; loco green.  Body above waist; cream lined 1 inch from panel edge with 3/8 inch

plum coloured line.  Roof: lead grey.  Underframe, bogies and solebars; black.  Wheel; black with white rims. LNER and number; Standard 4 inch characters.  Name; 7 inch letters."

 

Bear in mind though, this was written in 1967 and although it sounds authoritative, it looks as though further information can nowadays be deduced e.g. the photographic evidence in this thread that the lining was at least sometimes a double line.  The article acknowledges "Photograph and original information by courtesy of the PRPO, British Railways, Eastern Region" which sounds pretty official and the painting description does read in the way that railway company paint specs might have been written.

Hm; so, we have more than one source giving red lining on green/cream and more than one giving green lining; we also have conflicting statements as to whether the lining was double green, green and black, black and gilt, or just a single line (though that last option may just be down to poor observation)

 

Well, I'd suggest there are only two explanations:

 

• One is that there were variations in the liveries, perhaps between different times, perhaps between different paint shops, so that all these accounts were true of some vehicles, some of the time.
• The second is that there's been confusion somewhere in research (or perhaps sub-editing) and that the red/cream cars were red/black lined and the green/cream were green/black lined.

 

I'm quite unsure which I'd support currently, but I'd still say there's sufficient evidence to support a green/cream model with black/green lining as an acceptably historically accurate version.

 

7 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

It would be great if a contemporary account turned up that was very specific.

🎰🌈🦄 - and there isn't an emoji for hen's teeth!

[Chas Levin]

4 hours ago, micklner said:

Couple of photos of my NuCast version . Hopefully correct livery sans lining etc.

 

HOPE the last Sentinel to be withdrawn.

 

 

Nice job Mick - I like the 'Selby' destination board!

 

So, the $64,000 Question (as I note you comment about it being correct 'sans lining etc': once we've absolutely and positively established once and for all the correct colours (!), do you plan to line this lovely vehicle?

[31A]

45 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

or just a single line (though that last option may just be down to poor observation)

 

Well yes, except that the spec I quoted given by Nick Campling in the MRN article says 

 

5 hours ago, 31A said:

lined 1 inch from panel edge with 3/8 inch plum coloured line.

 

indicating to me a single line from what seems likely (to me) to be originally from an official source.

 

To be honest I think if I was making one, I'd leave out the lining on the cream panels as I don't think I could possibly do a line anything like a scale 3/8 inch wide and if I could, it wouldn't be visible from most distances.  After all Mick's model hasn't got any lining and looks perfectly fine without it!

[micklner]

58 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

Nice job Mick - I like the 'Selby' destination board!

 

So, the $64,000 Question (as I note you comment about it being correct 'sans lining etc': once we've absolutely and positively established once and for all the correct colours (!), do you plan to line this lovely vehicle?

No !!!.  I could'nt do it, or want too to try.

 

I cannot see how anyone could draw all the lines to match exactly in size and shape, on so many panels ? The eye would be drawn to the tiniest devations and it would simply look horrible.

No idea if someone who can design/make the lining panels as decals, and be able print the lines that fine. They would then all be identical in size etc. Even then they would be a nightmare to lay on the panels , again exactly in the same position on each panel.

 

 

Good luck if you try !!.

 

 

[Chas Levin]

41 minutes ago, 31A said:

 

Well yes, except that the spec I quoted given by Nick Campling in the MRN article says 

"lined 1 inch from panel edge with 3/8 inch plum coloured line"

indicating to me a single line from what seems likely (to me) to be originally from an official source.

Yes, it does seem to suggest that. Still sceptical though!

 

42 minutes ago, 31A said:

To be honest I think if I was making one, I'd leave out the lining on the cream panels as I don't think I could possibly do a line anything like a scale 3/8 inch wide and if I could, it wouldn't be visible from most distances.  After all Mick's model hasn't got any lining and looks perfectly fine without it!

 

19 minutes ago, micklner said:

I cannot see how anyone could draw all the lines to match exactly in size and shape, on so many panels ? The eye would be drawn to the tiniest devations and it would simply look horrible.

No idea if someone who can design/make the lining panels as decals, and be able print the lines that fine. They would then all be identical in size etc. Even then they would be a nightmare to lay on the panels , again exactly in the same position on each panel.

 

 

Good luck if you try !!

Well, I do intend to try. I've found the lining on my current C2 build very difficult, but immensely interesting and very satisfying; actually, quite exciting in a funny way. It's left me very keen to try other lining because of what I've learned on this job.

 

I think it's always true that the eye is drawn to small deviations (unfortunately) but there are two factors you've both mentioned here that might work together: the extreme narrowness of the lines will make them less prominent, so the tiny deviations will be less conspicuous!

 

How's that for a piece of creative thinking - sort of 'every cloudy glass is half-full of silver lining'? 🍻

 

Anyway, I shall have fun trying...

[31A]

1 minute ago, Chas Levin said:

Anyway, I shall have fun trying...

 

Good luck; I look forward to seeing how you get on!  If it's anything like as good as your C2 I'm sure it'll be better than I could do....

[Chas Levin]

13 minutes ago, 31A said:

 

Good luck; I look forward to seeing how you get on!  If it's anything like as good as your C2 I'm sure it'll be better than I could do....

Thanks Steve - I'm sure that last part's not true, but very nice of you to say so!

[Chas Levin]

19 hours ago, 31A said:

In the MRJ article it is explained that the Worsley Works kit was enlarged 'to order' from 3mm Scale to S Scale, so perhaps he might be amenable to doing the same thing for 4mm Scale.  It is listed in 3mm scale on this page:

 

http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/3mm/3mm_LNER.htm

 

I have made a few 4mm scale coaches using Worsley Works sides which have been enlarged in this way and found them to be a good product.  However the kits are sometimes described as 'scratch aids' and according to the MRJ article, for the railcar you get an etch providing body sides and ends, the various doors, a floor and solebars, formers for the inside of the ends and the curved cantrail at the ends, and battery boxes.  I would imagine forming the curves at the corners of the  ends would be interesting, as would forming the tumble home on the sides, as the passenger saloon part would be quite flimsy above the waist.  And you're on your own for roof, bogies, mechanism etc.

I realised Steve that I forgot to reply to this part of your post: I did think about asking if custom 4mm was possible from Worsley, but I need to have a think about the weight issue and perhaps actually weigh various of the N-Cast castings. Following Jonathan Wealleans' advice on my own thread, I'm already intending to substitute floor and roof so it'll only be the sides that are WM and I'm wondering whether that might in fact be quite a good amount of weight and whether etched sides might go too far in the other direction and be too light... 

[Chas Levin]

On 08/07/2022 at 14:35, MarkC said:

I have to say, I'm minded more towards teak colour, rather than scumbled effect. It would be nice to know for certain, of course.

 

On 08/07/2022 at 15:04, micklner said:

Total guess.

 

Brand new vehicles, Teak Grained scumbled paint.

 

Teak in photos can appear very dark as it ages it turn almost Black. The LNER before revarnishing on old stock bleached the wood with Oxalic Acid to lighten the wood again.

 

See here

 

https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/133-teak-coaches

 

"Teak" paint was used on old vehicles e.g pre grouping stock, simply cheaper than stripping the wood etc .

I think I have an answer to the question of whether the earliest livery was a grained teak effect or just teak-coloured paint: my copy of Yeadon Vol 12 arrived (very exciting and very interesting - I realise I'm somewhat late to the party on this, I really should have investigated these books earlier) and on page 4, there's a photo of 13E "at Stratford works in 1927 after its first general repair, during which it was painted to resemble teak, because railcars were regarded as coaching stock, and not as locomotives." That caption itself is fairly specific, but the photo above it leaves little doubt and I hope I may be forgiven for reproducing a cropped area of it here, purely for research purposes, because I think it does answer the question - this is surely the full grained teak effect:

 

[Chas Levin]

And here's another item from the LNER Magazine (reproduced here with thanks again to the GER Society), this time from 1929. First the photo, which shows Highland Chieftan (no. 33, a six cylinder gear-driven diagram 96) towing an ex-GNR 6 wheeler. There are notes in Yeadon about this practice - often used for crew movements - and there is one photo too, but I thought this one worth showing as it's a lot clearer:

 

 

Interestingly, the accompanying note in the magazine suggests that trailers (which I take to include coaches like this, as that's what's shown in the accompanying photo) were used for high passenger numbers. I think this would look superb modelled - has anyoen done that? (There's also a lovely photo of 267 Liberty hauling a fish van - again, another modelling opportunity...).

 

More interesting from a livery point of view though is the continuation of the note in the magazine, where we learn that the the red/cream livery was applied to the two cylinder chain-driven cars, while the green/cream was applied to the six cylinder gear-driven ones, something I haven't seen mentioned elsewhere.

The 2 cylinder cars went into traffic between 1925 and May 1928, with the bulk of the six cylinder vehicles entering traffic from November of that year (excepting the sole two cylinder gear-driven 2135 Integrity in June 1928, and the very first six cylinder 2133 Nettle in May of that year). So, if the note about red/green livery in this article is correct, it dates the changeover:

 

 

This throws up another question: when they decided to go with green/cream, did that mean that only the new six cylinder cars would be in those colours without worrying about the existing two cylinder ones, or did it mean that they also went back and re-painted the two cylinder ones in green/cream too, so that the fleet all matched?

I'd suggest, based on this LNER note - which was published in May 1929, when the new six cylinder cars had already been in traffic for a year - that the two liveries, red and green, were kept, side by side.

I think this possibility sheds some light on the apparent confusion over lining colours in some sources, because there would have been red/cream and green/cream cars running side by side for years, given that many of the two cylinder cars were in traffic until the end of WWII. That might be why the Leeds Model Co. vehicles for instance contain red and green elements...

[jwealleans]

21 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

I think this would look superb modelled - has anyone done that?

 

We did it at the Little Bytham 1938 weekend.   The Railcar is mine and I think the 6 wheeler is too. 

 

 

  There's even some video..

[Chas Levin]

56 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

 

We did it at the Little Bytham 1938 weekend.   The Railcar is mine and I think the 6 wheeler is too. 

 

 

  There's even some video..

Marvellous, that looks really good Jonathan, thank you for posting. I feel quite inspired - I have a couple of D&S six-wheelers in my stash so one day I shall do this too...

[MarkC]

12 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

 

I think I have an answer to the question of whether the earliest livery was a grained teak effect or just teak-coloured paint: my copy of Yeadon Vol 12 arrived (very exciting and very interesting - I realise I'm somewhat late to the party on this, I really should have investigated these books earlier) and on page 4, there's a photo of 13E "at Stratford works in 1927 after its first general repair, during which it was painted to resemble teak, because railcars were regarded as coaching stock, and not as locomotives." That caption itself is fairly specific, but the photo above it leaves little doubt and I hope I may be forgiven for reproducing a cropped area of it here, purely for research purposes, because I think it does answer the question - this is surely the full grained teak effect:

 

Great find, Chas - my copy of Yeadon is at home, so wasn't to hand for me...

 

So, what was the livery when built? There's still some ambiguity about 'as built' condition, but certainly for 13E after the first General Repair, there she is in all her teak finery.

 

Great view of underframe details there too - brake gear & dynamo in particular.

[Chas Levin]

On 18/07/2022 at 07:27, MarkC said:

So, what was the livery when built? There's still some ambiguity about 'as built' condition, but certainly for 13E after the first General Repair, there she is in all her teak finery.

Morning Mark, yes, I did notice the 'after first general repair' point, but we do have other sources stating that they were teaked when first built, so I thought this might be slightly ambiguous writing, or an error - that it ought perhaps to have suggested that the first general repair included a re-paint to existing livery?

(I always wonder about photo captions in books and magazines that seem a little odd in some way, because I know that sometimes, these are added by editors or sub-editors, based on the supplied text. I know that's by no means always, but it's always a possibility).

The progression does seem to have been teak > red/cream > green/cream (or possibly to red and green side by side, as I've suggested above) so I'd be very surprised if they'd painted any cars in colours, then reverted to teak, then back to colours again...

Edited July 19, 2022 by Chas Levin

[jwealleans]

Incidentally, the 6 wheeler above is not GNR, it's either NB or GNoS.  The upper panelling and treatment of the cornice are quite different to a GNR build.

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, jwealleans said:

Incidentally, the 6 wheeler above is not GNR, it's either NB or GNoS.  The upper panelling and treatment of the cornice are quite different to a GNR build.

Aha, thanks Jonathan - that would make sense, given the Northern Scottish service...

[bécasse]

4 hours ago, jwealleans said:

Incidentally, the 6 wheeler above is not GNR, it's either NB or GNoS.  The upper panelling and treatment of the cornice are quite different to a GNR build.

And I wondered if it was added to provide 1st class accommodation on the service working, although it could also be just to cater for a 1st class through group, plenty of those travelling around the "glorious twelfth".

[Chas Levin]

Another little piece from the LNER Magazine (with thanks again to the GER Society for making this and much other material available), this time from November 1930, covering the Sentinel 200HP double-six-cylinder articulated car Phenomena - nothing very revelatory, but a nice photo and some possibly useful info - has anyone combined two kits to model one of these?